Pilots slam use of foreign seasonal workers

[WetJet]

http://www.canada.com/business/Pilots+s ... story.html

OTTAWA — With winter just around the corner and news this week that 50 Air Transat pilots are facing layoffs, aviators are again raising concerns about charters that hire foreign workers to swoop in for the busy sun destination season at the expense of unemployed Canadian pilots.

While Citizenship and Immigration Canada quietly altered the guidelines for officers vetting visa requests in June, pilots say the changes fall short of addressing all the issues. The guidelines are meant to help visa officers assess whether foreign worker exchanges are being done fairly.

Pilots are also concerned about the proliferation of “wet leasing,” whereby Canadian companies lease foreign aircraft, crew and all. Traditionally used as a backstop when a company’s own planes are temporarily grounded for repairs, pilots say companies are now doing it to boost their fleets, all the while circumventing visa requirements and pilot exchange provisions.

“We feel quite uncomfortable with the situation,” said Alain Chabot, a 49-year-old Air Transat pilot who was told he’d be laid off this fall when the company gets rid of three aircraft. “It’s a little bit difficult for us to understand that they are asking for foreign pilots to come to Canada when there are plenty of pilots qualified in Canada that are ready to take over those jobs.”

For years, companies like Sunwing and CanJet have looked to Europe to bolster their Canadian operations in winter, arguing Canadian pilots don’t have the requisite “type rating” or credentials to fly their particular airplanes to sun destinations like Cuba and Mexico.

It can take as long as two months and cost up to $50,000 to train a pilot on a new aircraft, and while airlines generally pick up the tab for full-time hires, it’s considered a huge burden to do so for seasonal workers.

After its Canadian ad campaign failed to turn up any qualified candidates, CanJet received a positive labour market opinion from Human Resources and Skills Development Canada last year to hire about 35 foreign pilots. The company expects to do the same this year.

Meanwhile, Sunwing obtained about 150 visas for foreign pilots last year through a reciprocity deal that allows foreigners to work in Canada in the winter so long as Canadian pilots have the opportunity to work in Europe in the summer.

Citizenship and Immigration figures obtained by Postmedia News suggest some 395 foreign pilots and flight engineers received work permits last year. About 224 were issued for seasonal work under the reciprocal work exemption.

But Gilles Hudicourt, a 14-year Air Transat veteran behind a petition last May that urged the government to “review the principle” of allowing charters to hire foreign workers, has some concerns.

He argues CanJet is being cheap and manipulative, while Sunwing is failing to abide by the rules of reciprocity as more foreigners are finding seasonal work in Canada than the other way around. Furthermore, he argues Sunwing has wet leased some of its aircraft and crew to Europe in the summer and is unfairly counting those pilots — still under the operational control of Sunwing and not technically employed abroad — towards fulfilment of its pilot exchange agreement.

Both Sunwing and WestJet, he added, also import foreign aircraft and crew on wet leases, which is again taking jobs away from Canadians.

“There is no shortage of qualified pilots in Canada and the ruses which some airlines use to obtain a (labour market opinion) ... in order to secure work permits for foreign pilots is nothing short of dishonest,” he said.

“Now that we’re going to have pilots laid off and on UI, if we see any significant number of pilots come to Canada to work on Canadian airplanes, we’re going to mount protests and we hope it’s going to carry a lot of weight because you can’t have Canadian pilots collecting unemployment insurance while the government hands out work visas to foreign pilots who come and take their jobs.”

He argued the revised Citizenship and Immigration Canada guidelines seem to open the door to allowing wet leases to be counted toward reciprocity agreements, though he welcomed changes that call on officers to collect evidence of the number of Canadians employed abroad rather than just rely on a company’s word. He also welcomed changes that seek to ensure that for every four foreign workers employed in Canada, at least three Canadians are employed in Europe.

Meanwhile, airlines deny they are doing anything wrong or immoral.

“At CanJet we have a requirement for seasonal workers and if there were any Canadian pilots qualified on a 737-800 that want to work part time during the winter period from mid-November to end of April, I would hire them tomorrow,” company president Stephen Rowe said.

“It’s simple as that really.”

Rowe said he can’t afford to train temporary employees, only to lay them off months later so they could find work elsewhere and not be available to him again the following year.

With 119 full time Canadian pilots on payroll and a need for just 70 between May and November, he argues he already employs his “fair share of Canadian full-time pilots.”

Sunwing president Mark Williams said his company has moved to address the issue. This year Sunwing has hired 15 additional Canadian pilots and upgraded 30 to captain from first officer. The company is also hiring 20 seasonal first officers and paying for their “type rating” at a cost of about $800,000 even though they’ll be cut loose in the summer.

“Sunwing is not the reason that other Canadian pilots are unemployed,” he said, noting the company will still have to bring in about 130 foreign pilots this winter.

He admits the company has sent fewer Canadians to work in Europe during the summer in recent years, but that over the entire seven years Sunwing’s been in business, the reverse is true.

“That’s something that seems to be a misconception that I would really like to clear up,” he said.

As for counting wet lease pilots towards fulfilling its reciprocity obligations, he sees nothing wrong with that, noting “the most important thing is we are creating work for Canadians overseas.”

[BE20 Driver]

“At CanJet we have a requirement for seasonal workers and if there were any Canadian pilots qualified on a 737-800 that want to work part time during the winter period from mid-November to end of April, I would hire them tomorrow,” company president Stephen Rowe said.

“It’s simple as that really.”

Is it really? Some unemployed guy with roughly the right credentials should pitch this to HRDC and see if they'd spring for a type rating. it would be cheaper than EI for a year. How much can a TR cost anyway?

[Dockjock]

Could it possibly be as simple as Canadian aircraft operated by a Canadian-registered company must be staffed by Canadian pilots? If there are foreign registered aircraft being brought in on wet lease for a temporary period (a la Westjet) then I see no problem with those aircraft being staffed by foreign pilots, per se.
If CanJet has C-reg B738's staffed with import crews, that's wrong. There is no reason that those crews cannot follow the aircraft over to Europe in summer to operate on a reciprocal wet lease there, and vice versa for winter/foreign crews/foreign reg here.
I don't see where the need for "extra" crews is. Either the aircraft are canadian or they are not. That should determine where the crews are sourced from.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

If there are foreign registered aircraft being brought in on wet lease for a temporary period (a la Westjet) then I see no problem with those aircraft being staffed by foreign pilots, per se.

That is also a slippery slope. Last winter, Sunwing had one 737 on Wet-Lease. Then they Wet-Leased 2 767s for the summer. They then announced 5 737 wet-leases for next winter. With dry-leases, the foreign pilots need Canadian work permits from CIC under the reciprocal deal or with an LMO issued by HRSDC. If CIC says "no you've reached your quota under the reciprocity", or HRSDC says "no LMOs for you", they can just turn around and ask the CTA for for Wet-Leases, which require no Work permits. It's gives them a back door to circumvent the system. I don't think CIC, HRSDC and the CTA consult each other on these matters.

Jazz used to operate 5 dry-leased 757s under contract for Thomas Cook, all flown by Canadian pilots. TC cancelled the contract with Jazz and gave it to Westjet. Westjet did some of those flights with its own aircraft and Wet-Leased 2 Thomas Cook 757s with British pilots to do the balance.....

This being said, would you approve of 20 foreign Wet-Leases in Canada, with 300 foreign pilots flying them.........?

Where and how does one draw the line ?

[trey kule]

Where and how does one draw the line ?

Maybe when a competitor is not raising all the fuss, and it really is about foreign pilots and not the competitor trying to shrink seat capacity in the winter.......just saying is all.

[Doc]

Where and how does one draw the line ?

Maybe when a competitor is not raising all the fuss, and it really is about foreign pilots and not the competitor trying to shrink seat capacity in the winter.......just saying is all.

Not happening because rhe competitors aren't getting the charter contracts, therefore they're not affected. But you raise a good point. My money says if Air Canada was bitching, things would be taken more seriously? The traveling public is the "honey badger" in all of this. These operations should receive government cash injections if they can prove undue hardship, to hire and train CDN seasonal pilots. At least for the right seats?
As a member of the flying public, I flew to Mexico last winter on a foreign registered Sun Wing aircraft, crewed with foreign staff. They went out of their way with great customer service. None of the Nazi attitudes sometimes witnessed with typical CDN back end crews.
If you're a young pilot reading this, perhaps picking up a 737 type rating, instead of coughing up big bucks for bonds might be a thought? This problem isn't going to go away over night.

[trey kule]

Doc...that is a brilliant idea. Instead of all those pilots going on Ei, why does the government not subsidize their training for SunWings... Its win-win....The pilots get the job...It costs the taxpayers no extra money, and Sunwings can afford to hire seasonal workers.
And they will be able to keep the costs down so the public will win too.....

That should make the people happy who are trying to make us all believe it is just about unfairness to Canadian pilots..

[BE20 Driver]

A quick google search for 737 type ratings shows at least a dozen places that offer them in the states (http://www.mullers.net/mike/training%20cost/index.htm). Nearly all for under $10 grand. Most seem to be about $7000. If you max out on EI, that's really only about 2 months worth of pogey.

I used to be a ramp rat a decade ago at the flight school I was training at. It seems to me that they were pushing me to get my instructor rating for the low cost of about $7000. They couldn't guarantee I would have a job at the flight school when I finished. If I had only put my money into a 737 rating, I'd have a guaranteed job. It says so in the article.

Incidentally, I would love to see how the accounting works at Sunwing and Canjet to run that tab up to $50 grand.

[Doc]

A quick google search for 737 type ratings shows at least a dozen places that offer them in the states (http://www.mullers.net/mike/training%20cost/index.htm). Nearly all for under $10 grand. Most seem to be about $7000. If you max out on EI, that's really only about 2 months worth of pogey.

I used to be a ramp rat a decade ago at the flight school I was training at. It seems to me that they were pushing me to get my instructor rating for the low cost of about $7000. They couldn't guarantee I would have a job at the flight school when I finished. If I had only put my money into a 737 rating, I'd have a guaranteed job. It says so in the article.

Incidentally, I would love to see how the accounting works at Sunwing and Canjet to run that tab up to $50 grand.

I'd be pretty shocked if you could get a 737 type on your license for much under 20K. No way should it be anywhere near 50K though. Either way, it's a better investment than EI, for sure.

[Panama Jack]

Some very pragmatic and refreshing thinking by Doc.

All these years we have been told by our peers about the evils of buying a type rating (after having bought a Private, Commercial, Multi-engine, Instrument and Seaplane Rating + + on time building) and have been told it is more noble to collect EI or work the ramp than make what in any other profession would be seen as an investment in your qualifications.

Yes, there are a number of places in the US where you can get yourself a 737-NG rating for about $8000. Of course, add in the airfare, the price of meals and hotel to that and we can up that to about $10,000 but that still seems like a worthwhile investment to be qualified in one of the most popular type jets in the World.

http://www.panamacademy.com/boeing-737- ... ng-courses

Looking at the Canjet ad, they don't require time on type (unlike a lot of other jet operators which specify that you must have the type rating AND 500 hours on type). Seems like a no-brainer to me.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

A modern Level D FFS rents for somewhere between $700 and $1000 an hour. Lets says it takes 10 4 hours sessions to train a pilot @ $700/hour it comes out to about $28000 for 2 pilots so $14,000 per pilot. Then there are the salaries of the instructors, the examiner's fees, the travel costs, the hotels, the per-diems, etc. I think $20,000 is a realistic minimum.

[Doc]

Here's a challenge.

I'd like to spend summers by my lake, so...

Sun Wing, or whoever. You type me on your airplane. Cover my expenses. Base me where I can commute from YWG. pay me your regular scale FO rate. I'll give you three seasons of a Canadian in the right seat.
What you get in return. A guy with a CDN passport, more than 25000 hours of flight time, CAT 1 medical. Three seasons of not needing to hire a Forign pilot.
What I get? Three summers on my lake in semi-retirement. Perhaps more, but I'd be willing to commit to three. Of course, at my age, I'd need pee breaks every couple of hours. LOL!
Any takers? I'm guessing there are others who would make you the same offer. Frankly, I don't see a down side to an airline to take me up on this?

[Panama Jack]

A modern Level D FFS rents for somewhere between $700 and $1000 an hour. Lets says it takes 10 4 hours sessions to train a pilot @ $700/hour it comes out to about $28000 for 2 pilots so $14,000 per pilot. Then there are the salaries of the instructors, the examiner's fees, the travel costs, the hotels, the per-diems, etc. I think $20,000 is a realistic minimum.

For sure, with airlines they figure that into the costs. My last bond that I signed at my company was around $27,000 to get me rated on a new type. Keep in mind that they were also paying me during that time, during which I was not exactly productive as far as being part of the revenue producing equation of the organization. Of course, my "training period" did not end with the type ride in the simulator-- it included on-line training until the Line Check.

But if you are looking for a sticker in your booklet that says "B73C", you should be able to get it for around $10 Grand at your own cost including travel, hotels, meals.

[frog]

Doc :

Why don't you send your resume and a cover letter outlining what you said ?
You never know, it might work !
(for the pee brake, the toilets are right behind the flight deck, and you can jump the line !)

[teacher]

These companies would be able to afford to train local pilots if by charged a reasonable price for their product. Only airlines and travel companies are stupid enough to price themselves into bankruptcy. If they charged what the product was worth it wouldn't be a problem.

[Beefitarian]

Frankly, I don't see a down side to an airline to take me up on this?

Not even the part where you snap and make the captain cry telling her/him, "You should be flipping burgers!" ?

[Doc]

Frankly, I don't see a down side to an airline to take me up on this?

Not even the part where you snap and make the captain cry telling her/him, "You should be flipping burgers!" ?

CLASSIC!! So, now I'm cleaning coffee off my keyboard!

[old_man]

Here's a challenge.

I'd like to spend summers by my lake, so...

Sun Wing, or whoever. You type me on your airplane. Cover my expenses. Base me where I can commute from YWG. pay me your regular scale FO rate. I'll give you three seasons of a Canadian in the right seat.
What you get in return. A guy with a CDN passport, more than 25000 hours of flight time, CAT 1 medical. Three seasons of not needing to hire a Forign pilot.

How are you willing to prove your commitment that you will work for 3 seasons? Willing to sign a training bond?

[Doc]

Here's a challenge.

I'd like to spend summers by my lake, so...

Sun Wing, or whoever. You type me on your airplane. Cover my expenses. Base me where I can commute from YWG. pay me your regular scale FO rate. I'll give you three seasons of a Canadian in the right seat.
What you get in return. A guy with a CDN passport, more than 25000 hours of flight time, CAT 1 medical. Three seasons of not needing to hire a Forign pilot.

How are you willing to prove your commitment that you will work for 3 seasons? Willing to sign a training bond?

I think when you get to where I'm at (great English?) if somebody isn't willing to take me by my word, I don't want to have much to do with them. I think I can sell it at an interview. Never been asked to sign a bond yet. Besides, it's seasonal.....are they likely to sign a reciprocal agreement? The economy goes down the dump, and the tourist business falls through, are they going to be willing to pay me for three seasons, even if they don't use me? If so, then yes. But it would be an industry first!

[toelessjoe]

So because I work in the summer and have winters off if I go out and buy a 10k 737 type rating then Canjet would be morally and ethically obligated to hire me since Rowe has said so?

FELLOW BUSH MONKEYS STAND WITH ME!! WE ARE ALL GETTING NEW HATS!!

I call bullshit. Just my 2 cents worth.


- Toeless.

[Doc]

So because I work in the summer and have winters off if I go out and buy a 10k 737 type rating then Canjet would be morally and ethically obligated to hire me since Rowe has said so?

FELLOW BUSH MONKEYS STAND WITH ME!! WE ARE ALL GETTING NEW HATS!!

I call bullshit. Just my 2 cents worth.


- Toeless.

I'm IN! I'm game. Lets shop for type ratings and involve the media.

[cdnpilot77]

So because I work in the summer and have winters off if I go out and buy a 10k 737 type rating then Canjet would be morally and ethically obligated to hire me since Rowe has said so?

FELLOW BUSH MONKEYS STAND WITH ME!! WE ARE ALL GETTING NEW HATS!!

I call bullshit. Just my 2 cents worth.


- Toeless.

I'm IN! I'm game. Lets shop for type ratings and involve the media.

But then who would teach me about religion, stupid people and various other subjects (rants) in our waiting time in Pikangikum? Really, you would rather fly to The Dominican or Cuba or Mexico than Big Trout Lake in the winter?? this is me being shocked!

[BE20 Driver]

Sun Wing, or whoever. You type me on your airplane. Cover my expenses. Base me where I can commute from YWG. pay me your regular scale FO rate. I'll give you three seasons of a Canadian in the right seat.
What you get in return. A guy with a CDN passport, more than 25000 hours of flight time, CAT 1 medical. Three seasons of not needing to hire a Forign pilot.

I may not have as much time as Doc but I'd be in for a deal like that too. It would go great with my seasonal, well paying summer job. It would be one less foreign pilot working here while I spend the winter on EI.

[rooster]

I think when you get to where I'm at (great English?) if somebody isn't willing to take me by my word, I don't want to have much to do with them. I think I can sell it at an interview. Never been asked to sign a bond yet. Besides, it's seasonal.....are they likely to sign a reciprocal agreement? The economy goes down the dump, and the tourist business falls through, are they going to be willing to pay me for three seasons, even if they don't use me? If so, then yes. But it would be an industry first!

Yeah I'm sorry but even older experienced pilots like yourself aren't immune from skipping out of a bond or contract. I've seen very seasoned (both in age and experience) pilots do it. It's not just a trait of a kid pilot Doc.

Not sure why you think based on your experience, your word means anything to an employer who knows nothing about you. I wouldn't trust you anymore than someone half your age.

[Rowdy]

Sign me up for one of those seats too! So long as my seasonal pay is up to par