[quote="chowda"]Can abc xyz offer an opinion about aviation life vs. railroading? Like the others have asked, concerning duty time, schedules, mandatory rest periods, etc.
I am based in Toronto so we have a wide variety of jobs here. You basically have 3 options of types of jobs here.
Yard Jobs - CP has one major yard and 5 secondary yards in the GTA alone. These are scheduled for 8 hours like any job- yards operate 24/7. You are paid hourly with an 8 hour guarantee.
Road Switchers - These jobs service customers. You leave one of the above yards and deliver cars to an from customers along the mainline. paid garaunteed 8 hrs/day
Mainline - From Toronto we have a
North Pool that are trains headed out west.
South Pool - trains headed to US
East Pool - Trains headed to Montreal eastern US, Maritimes
Pools are paid in miles. Right now Engineers can work 3800 miles/month conductors 4300. So if your senior an you hold the east pool you do 8-9 trips a month. Some go at it steady to get like 10 days straight off at the end of each month
We have an out after 10 hrs in our contract but can work up to 12. After 12 call a cab. If you work over 10 hrs u must take 6 hrs off. If you are on a spareboard (our name for reserve) you can take up 10 hrs rest after a yard job and 24 hours off after a roadswitcher or mainline trip.
Overall i would say life is pretty comparable. You bid the life u want. If u are senior and you like weekend off bid a roadswitcher. If u want the most $ available go for the mainline stuff and use your rest, miles, personal or sick days to control lifestyle.
Train Driver
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Swede - hitting people takes it toll on anyone im sure- we have an internal help group that is in place if needed to help someone cope with an incident.swede wrote:abc xyz
Just wondering, as a kid I had a fascination with trains, somehow ended up in flying. I have heard that engineers get pretty jumpy over accidents, vehicle incursions at crossing etc. I've also heard that most have had a mishap involving fatatities. Is this a major factor for these guys, also how about the home life, are they on the road a lot - how many days do they work a month?
Home life is what u make it - the company will continue to throw money at u because they need their trains moved. U just have to decide what kind of lifestyle u want. for some guys all they got is the railroad. others have a great balance. its no differant than guys in aviation. Its greed that kills not the company
Dustinb1313 wrote:Yeah, I am also interested in maybe working on the trains, there is a course at BCIT in vancouver for a railroad conductor. Any of you that work on trains can you give me more information, its hard to find info on what the job is like. I was thinking I could do it to pay for commercial pilots licence.
Thanks
There are 2 avenues open 2 u
either apply directly when a job posting is up or go take a class at a community college. CP an CN basically hire these people right out of class. Like Seneca or Sault. I know of SAIT in Calgary and George Brown in Toronto offer the course. I havent heard of BCIT but it doesnt surprise me.
cheers
The Conductor is the "boss" of the train. He/she makes sure all the documents are in order for the train, takes clearances, tell the crew how the job is going to be done.costermonger wrote:Okay, for the unintitiated (me), what's the difference between a conductor and an engineer?
The engineer operates the locomotive/train under the direction of the conductor.
but like anything they work together CRM is big in our industry 2. we have health and safety committees who follow occurrences and crew communication is vital to getting the job done
-
wollypilot
- Rank 2
- Posts: 86
- Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:18 am
-
yok driver
- Rank 2
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 4:45 pm
-
Meatservo
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2581
- Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:07 pm
- Location: Negative sequencial vortex
I was a brakeman on the CPR in 1994-5 in between flying school and my first flying job. My Dad is really into steam trains as a hobby so I sort of grew up around them. You guys wouldn't believe the process involved in getting hired there. There were three interviews, the last of which they showed me some track diagrams and asked me to show them how the train would perform certain moves. It sounds dorky, but spending my childhood helping my dad build his enourmous model train layout really helped with this part. The medical was unbeleiveable. My aviation doctor just looks at my pee and holds two fingers in the air, and if I guess how many, (it's always two) I'm outa there. At the railroad, they stuck me in a soundproof booth and made me listen to various faint tones to determine the extent of my hearing, I had to get and ECG, and some other electronic thing which I can't remember, the eye test was the most comprehensive I've ever been through, and if I'm not mistaken, I had to provide a blood sample. Then there was three months of classroom stuff, learning mostly about how the brakes and couplers work, and memorizing signals (there's hundreds of them) and rules. In fact it was called "rules" training, and the "license" they give you is called a "certificate of rules qualification", or a "B" ticket. I don't think they do that now, since they've phased out brakemen on the main line, I think everyone gets conductor training right off the bat.
Railway companies are heavily unionized. As a brakeman, I could hook up the brake hoses when we were putting the trains together. However, if the train was already put together, and it had been inspected by the guys from the car shop, and we found a hose still undone, we weren't allowed to put the air to it; we had to call the car shop and wait for them to come hook up the hose, because it was THEIR job in that particular siding. Kind of wierd. Also, the crew house was just as much a den of bitching and whining as any pilots' place, these guys hate the job, hate the company, resent any interruption in the bridge game or any time away from the coffee with carnation(blech). They bitch because they don't get any overtime, they bitch when they have to work overtime, I couldn't keep track of all the bitching.
In the subdivision I worked (Lakehead) there was a busy season and a slack season, just like in bush flying. In the summer, when the grain trains come in non-stop, there is lots of work to do. In the winter, the junior brakemen get laid off, the junior conductors have to bid for brakeman or "helper" jobs, the switcher engineers move down to conductors or yard foremen(that's what the conductor is called on a switcher), the line engineers move to the switchers, etc. I found myself on pogey in the winter, just like all my pals who had found jobs flying 185s in the bush. When I did work, it was five days a week in the yard, I didn't work the main line much, because the senior guys liked it and everyone there has to "bid" for their job. I liked the yard work, because I am a bit of a train fan (NEVER admit this if you work on the railraod). The main line guys got pay that was somehow calculated by the mile, I forget how, but it worked out to a little more per day than the yard. I got 123 dollars a day, which at the time was 80 percent of what a yard guy could make.
Trains are cool. They are noisy, enormous, and really dangerous. In the yard it was required that the crew jump on and off the train while it was in motion, ride the cars into the sidings to hook them up or take them apart, etc. The engineer can't see very well, so the brakeman and conductor ride the point of the train and give instructions to him over the radio or using the old-fashioned hand signals, which was more fun. Pretty soon I had lots of muscles from all the jumping around and twisting on those stiff hand-brakes, especially the older ones that you have to climb a ladder to get to, since they are inexplicably mounted on the roof of the train. I have to admit, I thought it was a pretty cool job, especially in the summer, cruising around on the front of the locomotive, waving at girls, thinking they are impressed with your manly job (they aren't). At night, working around trains is eerie. You have your lantern, but yards are usually pretty poorly lit and very quiet. The opposite end of the train from the locomotive can move very quietly sometimes. In the dark, surrounded by all this enourmous, silent equipment, riding quietly through the blackness on the ladder on the end of the train, trying to pick up the reflectors on the switch stands in the light from your lantern, it produces a feeling I have been unable to duplicate while flying, even at night. I often wish there was some way to do this on my time off. I probably remember it this way because I didn't do it for very long. I remember at the time wishing I was flying.
Railway companies are heavily unionized. As a brakeman, I could hook up the brake hoses when we were putting the trains together. However, if the train was already put together, and it had been inspected by the guys from the car shop, and we found a hose still undone, we weren't allowed to put the air to it; we had to call the car shop and wait for them to come hook up the hose, because it was THEIR job in that particular siding. Kind of wierd. Also, the crew house was just as much a den of bitching and whining as any pilots' place, these guys hate the job, hate the company, resent any interruption in the bridge game or any time away from the coffee with carnation(blech). They bitch because they don't get any overtime, they bitch when they have to work overtime, I couldn't keep track of all the bitching.
In the subdivision I worked (Lakehead) there was a busy season and a slack season, just like in bush flying. In the summer, when the grain trains come in non-stop, there is lots of work to do. In the winter, the junior brakemen get laid off, the junior conductors have to bid for brakeman or "helper" jobs, the switcher engineers move down to conductors or yard foremen(that's what the conductor is called on a switcher), the line engineers move to the switchers, etc. I found myself on pogey in the winter, just like all my pals who had found jobs flying 185s in the bush. When I did work, it was five days a week in the yard, I didn't work the main line much, because the senior guys liked it and everyone there has to "bid" for their job. I liked the yard work, because I am a bit of a train fan (NEVER admit this if you work on the railraod). The main line guys got pay that was somehow calculated by the mile, I forget how, but it worked out to a little more per day than the yard. I got 123 dollars a day, which at the time was 80 percent of what a yard guy could make.
Trains are cool. They are noisy, enormous, and really dangerous. In the yard it was required that the crew jump on and off the train while it was in motion, ride the cars into the sidings to hook them up or take them apart, etc. The engineer can't see very well, so the brakeman and conductor ride the point of the train and give instructions to him over the radio or using the old-fashioned hand signals, which was more fun. Pretty soon I had lots of muscles from all the jumping around and twisting on those stiff hand-brakes, especially the older ones that you have to climb a ladder to get to, since they are inexplicably mounted on the roof of the train. I have to admit, I thought it was a pretty cool job, especially in the summer, cruising around on the front of the locomotive, waving at girls, thinking they are impressed with your manly job (they aren't). At night, working around trains is eerie. You have your lantern, but yards are usually pretty poorly lit and very quiet. The opposite end of the train from the locomotive can move very quietly sometimes. In the dark, surrounded by all this enourmous, silent equipment, riding quietly through the blackness on the ladder on the end of the train, trying to pick up the reflectors on the switch stands in the light from your lantern, it produces a feeling I have been unable to duplicate while flying, even at night. I often wish there was some way to do this on my time off. I probably remember it this way because I didn't do it for very long. I remember at the time wishing I was flying.
Thats pretty informative stuff, I don't think most people realize what's involved. A guy I met did some work for PGE (the forerunner of BC rail), he had some interesting tales about coupling cars, he broke a few ribs slamming one section of cars into another, guess it was trial by fire back then, maybe still is..
Thanks for the info meatservo. Somethings however, have changed since you were therei.
Having just gone through the hiring process, I can make some updates.
It starts out with you attending a info session(in my case, with about a 100 people). You fill in a form answering a question(paragraph) and list your history/quals'.
Based on that, they cut around 60 people before lunch. If you make it, you spend the rest of the afternoon doing aptitude tests, and you schedule an interview.
The interview was about half an hour, and was with 3 people. Based on your aptitude test's, and how you interviewed, and how your references check out, you might then be called in for the physical.
The physical involves the pee sample, hearing/ vision test, and a fairly basic exam by a MD(joint mobility/ flexability, health questions, etc).
I don't know why meatservos test were so much more involved, but they aren't as demanding now.
The jumping off moving locomotives is now banned. It has to be stationary to get on/off. Im not sure if it applies to all rail equipment, as I have'nt started the class yet. I just cleared the hurdles.
The lay off thing is always a worry, no matter what you do. But I honestly don't think it can be worse than aviation. They(CP) are currently
booming, and there isn't an alternative to move large quantaties off cargo across the continent ,besides rail, in the forseeable future. So I think it has more stability to offer than aviation.
As for the bitching, well, aviation is full of it, so it should'nt be a big adjustment. The paycheque however, could take some time......
Cheers'
C
Having just gone through the hiring process, I can make some updates.
It starts out with you attending a info session(in my case, with about a 100 people). You fill in a form answering a question(paragraph) and list your history/quals'.
Based on that, they cut around 60 people before lunch. If you make it, you spend the rest of the afternoon doing aptitude tests, and you schedule an interview.
The interview was about half an hour, and was with 3 people. Based on your aptitude test's, and how you interviewed, and how your references check out, you might then be called in for the physical.
The physical involves the pee sample, hearing/ vision test, and a fairly basic exam by a MD(joint mobility/ flexability, health questions, etc).
I don't know why meatservos test were so much more involved, but they aren't as demanding now.
The jumping off moving locomotives is now banned. It has to be stationary to get on/off. Im not sure if it applies to all rail equipment, as I have'nt started the class yet. I just cleared the hurdles.
The lay off thing is always a worry, no matter what you do. But I honestly don't think it can be worse than aviation. They(CP) are currently
booming, and there isn't an alternative to move large quantaties off cargo across the continent ,besides rail, in the forseeable future. So I think it has more stability to offer than aviation.
As for the bitching, well, aviation is full of it, so it should'nt be a big adjustment. The paycheque however, could take some time......
Cheers'
C
Chowda welcome aboard - Where did u hire on? With our last contract we negotiated for increased pay for trainees. Although not a huge sum - its still comparable to right seat of a M/E turbine in pay. Once you get checked out after about 6 months your pay will be close to double at 85% pay on yard tickets alone. With every 210 days seeing a pay increase of 5% until at 100%.
I hired on March of 04 and we started out with 13 people - 11 made it through. Talk around my seniority district (Toronto, Smiths Falls, Hamilton, Windsor, London, Welland) has 1/2 our list gone (820 or so) in 10 years so nows a good time to get your name on the list.
Cheers
I hired on March of 04 and we started out with 13 people - 11 made it through. Talk around my seniority district (Toronto, Smiths Falls, Hamilton, Windsor, London, Welland) has 1/2 our list gone (820 or so) in 10 years so nows a good time to get your name on the list.
Cheers
Well, im waiting to hear back on the medical part, so im not 100% in yet. But everything went well, and as I don't have any substance abuse issues(pee test), Im confident it will happen.
I am looking forward to it though, 'cause I think it will be an interesting and more stable career.
C
I am looking forward to it though, 'cause I think it will be an interesting and more stable career.
C
-
bizjet_mania
- Rank 8
- Posts: 982
- Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 9:37 am
If you want to be a train driver you must be employed with CNR for a minimum of 2 years (They haven't been hiring people in ages!) I believe then you put in your application and if you're accepted end up in Gimli, Manitoba for 2 years I think to do your training on the train 
. Went to pick up my dad from the yard last night, was pretty cool seeing them couple 150 cars together. Hes the brakesman. Now thats heavy metal! Potassium Cyanide, Sulphuric Acid and 30 cars full of new automobiles among some of the cargo they were carrying.
Don't kid yourselves theres alot more money in the train business. My dad got called on Victoria Day to work and it landed on his day off as well he made $600 for 8 hours of work. And everytime they call him on his day off he'll make $300 a day. I am sure there are higher paying jobs in his company but I would like to make that kind of cash. Not too mention CNR gives the best pention in the country.
. Went to pick up my dad from the yard last night, was pretty cool seeing them couple 150 cars together. Hes the brakesman. Now thats heavy metal! Potassium Cyanide, Sulphuric Acid and 30 cars full of new automobiles among some of the cargo they were carrying.Don't kid yourselves theres alot more money in the train business. My dad got called on Victoria Day to work and it landed on his day off as well he made $600 for 8 hours of work. And everytime they call him on his day off he'll make $300 a day. I am sure there are higher paying jobs in his company but I would like to make that kind of cash. Not too mention CNR gives the best pention in the country.
-
Mitch Cronin
- Rank 8
- Posts: 914
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:15 am
- Location: Right beside my dog again...
Ok, it's clear to me now... All those of you who want to work with trains should go for it. Obviously you're only in aviation for the money and the glory (niether of which exist), so exit, stage left! That'll leave this business for those of us who want to be here, and maybe then, without a surplus of us tripping over each other and fighting for jobs, we can start earning something closer to what we deserve. 
-
bizjet_mania
- Rank 8
- Posts: 982
- Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 9:37 am
Trains fascinate me. I lived beside a rail line for a couple of years and no matter how often a train rolled by, I stopped and watched.
We flew a CN crew from Hornepayne to Armstrong one day. One of the guys sat right behind me and had dabbled in aviation. He and his dad had owned a C170 B for a time. So we put a headset on the guy. I wanted to talk trains, but he seemed to want to talk planes…
We flew a CN crew from Hornepayne to Armstrong one day. One of the guys sat right behind me and had dabbled in aviation. He and his dad had owned a C170 B for a time. So we put a headset on the guy. I wanted to talk trains, but he seemed to want to talk planes…
I wanted to talk trains, but he seemed to want to talk planes…
Thats funny
. Now that I've been out of aviation for 6 months, I actually look up to see what's flying overhead. I stopped doing that a few years into the aviation thing. The conditions in the industry did everything to suck the enthusiasm/interest from me. Planes and trains have fascinated me since I was a kid, so it isn't a strictly a case of money wants. I happened to choose aviation first, which has turned out to give a poor return on the investment. I won't be in the hole at all when done the CPR training.
A note to Mitch, if your not doing it for glory or money, then what for? Obviously you're doing it cause you think it's "fun", and accept/accepted low wages/poor work conditions to be able do so. If that's the case. you're contributing to the problem you complain about.
For me, im tired of giving(aviation), and in the possibility CP comes back negative, I'll be looking at other possibilities that I have also been researching. I'm tired of waiting or aviation, and I don't want to wake up one day being 50 and still bouncing around job to job, with no pension.
In the very least, I'll have back a hobby/interest that was stomped out years ago.
C
-
Mitch Cronin
- Rank 8
- Posts: 914
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:15 am
- Location: Right beside my dog again...
Howdy Chowda,chowda wrote:A note to Mitch, if your not doing it for glory or money, then what for? Obviously you're doing it cause you think it's "fun", and accept/accepted low wages/poor work conditions to be able do so. If that's the case. you're contributing to the problem you complain about.
No man, I'm doing it for love. Somehow, I fell in love with airplanes. It's that simple. There's all sorts of reasons to be somewhat disenchanted with the nitty, gritty, dirt dog details of what comes and goes, but in the end, I just can't seem to see myself doing anything else.
I think shattered dreams of glory or money has made some in this business realize they've set themselves up for a disappointment. Others have been plain unlucky... and some others just didn't realize the sacrifices would be so great.
...But the rewards, for those of us who stick it out for the most basic reasons - it's what we love to do - evidently make those sacrifices worth our while. ....we just find that hard to see at times.
I know there's no solution to the excess numbers, other than time, but it's a shame if anyone's still getting into this racket with false ideas. I've seen ads on tv promoting aircraft maintenance training, touting top salary's for long time AME's at airline pay, for instance.... How many know that's not to be their luck, I wonder? ...or consider how much better they could do fixing elevators, or fridges, or plumbing? Most people probably still think of "pilots" as $200k/yr earners...
Anyway, best of luck with whatever comes your way.
Cheers,
Mitch
I know what you say!!! sometimes i am disappointed and i wonder why i did not get a master degree instead a fly-licence. But then i get into an airplane, and see the world from above!!! i would spend the same money all over again, that is because i love flying and airplanes!!!
The problem, is that once you have a family that is not enough!!!! when you get your phone bill you cannot pay it with a magnificent fly-story!! When a tooth hurts and you have to pay 1000$ to the dentist, he does not want a picture of the CN tower from 8000 feet
What we can do at this point is find a real job, and keep dreaming and/or buy an airplane. At least we can keep flying and leave, airplanes is not everything in life remember!!!!
Good luck
The problem, is that once you have a family that is not enough!!!! when you get your phone bill you cannot pay it with a magnificent fly-story!! When a tooth hurts and you have to pay 1000$ to the dentist, he does not want a picture of the CN tower from 8000 feet
What we can do at this point is find a real job, and keep dreaming and/or buy an airplane. At least we can keep flying and leave, airplanes is not everything in life remember!!!!
Good luck
It's better to break ground and head into the wind than to break wind and head into the ground
mitch,
Love for airplanes,and the expectance to make a good living, are generally what draws people to this field. It was for me.
One would expect that multi- million dollar a/c would command above average wages to those who fly, or maintain them. As we both know, this obviously isn't reality, regardless of what the idiots at the schools preach.
I agree time is what it is going to take for change, but the problem is, Im not 20 anymore, and I need to make the years count.
I'm looking at it from evalle's perspective, in that in the future aviation for me will be a fun thing that I pursue as a hobby. Maybe pickup a unfinished homebuilt, or old single engine somethingorother that needs TLC. If not that, I still have a ton of yet to be started plastic model kits that will be needing attention, and X-Plane/FS2004 to keep me occupied.
It's something that will never totally leave me.
Anyway, good luck to all, whether flying or wrenching,
Cheers'
C
Love for airplanes,and the expectance to make a good living, are generally what draws people to this field. It was for me.
One would expect that multi- million dollar a/c would command above average wages to those who fly, or maintain them. As we both know, this obviously isn't reality, regardless of what the idiots at the schools preach.
I agree time is what it is going to take for change, but the problem is, Im not 20 anymore, and I need to make the years count.
I'm looking at it from evalle's perspective, in that in the future aviation for me will be a fun thing that I pursue as a hobby. Maybe pickup a unfinished homebuilt, or old single engine somethingorother that needs TLC. If not that, I still have a ton of yet to be started plastic model kits that will be needing attention, and X-Plane/FS2004 to keep me occupied.
It's something that will never totally leave me.
Anyway, good luck to all, whether flying or wrenching,
Cheers'
C
