What is normally included in training bonds??? How much and for how long for different types??? I have yet to have to sign one, but have paid for training. Now Im writing a bond agreement and am looking for any and all input for aircraft singles to jets.
Thanks
Training Bonds
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arctic navigator
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Training Bonds
Last edited by arctic navigator on Fri May 27, 2005 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Arctic...
U will find that Bonds vary greatly from company to company! The bottom line is that the company is paying for your training and they want to protect themselves and their investment.
Ammount:
Usually varies by A/C type and left or right seat. Also some companies may drop the amount for 'senior' pilots who are upgrading to a larger A/C within the company.
Term:
I have heard of terms between one year and three years.
Payment:
Most companies are actually very good at paying-back the bond (usually monthly payments).
Danger:
As the JetsGo guys know there is a serious risk involved in signing any bond. That risk stems from the fact that companies do not insure the bond and the fact that the bond is in your name. So if the company goes bankrupt they stop paying-off the bond and you are stuck with what is essentially just a loan in YOUR name!
Good Luck!!
G
U will find that Bonds vary greatly from company to company! The bottom line is that the company is paying for your training and they want to protect themselves and their investment.
Ammount:
Usually varies by A/C type and left or right seat. Also some companies may drop the amount for 'senior' pilots who are upgrading to a larger A/C within the company.
Term:
I have heard of terms between one year and three years.
Payment:
Most companies are actually very good at paying-back the bond (usually monthly payments).
Danger:
As the JetsGo guys know there is a serious risk involved in signing any bond. That risk stems from the fact that companies do not insure the bond and the fact that the bond is in your name. So if the company goes bankrupt they stop paying-off the bond and you are stuck with what is essentially just a loan in YOUR name!
Good Luck!!
G
"Slow and steady wins the race"
With my company, you get a jet type-rating and an FAA ATPL and you have to agree to stay 2 years. If you leave early, you have to pay the number of months/percentage left over. You do not have any cash outlay and your pay is not affected, nor does it affect any raises, it is only an issue if you take your new type rating and flock off, then you owe the same rate as if you just went to a type school. Very fair, very reasonable, and really a good way to exchange your expertise for their money!
If there is something special that you wish to do, such as University courses and that ilk, you can negotiate your own bond.
If there is something special that you wish to do, such as University courses and that ilk, you can negotiate your own bond.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
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arctic navigator
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Greenwich, thanks for the input...
Balls, evidently you havnt been in a position of having to re-train pilots every 2 or 3 months for the same position because they keep getting checkouts then leaving...
Granted their may be and/or are other reasons for them leaving as well, but it is a significant expense in both aircraft costs and training time as well as babysitting every time someone new comes online...
Basicly what Im trying to do is set it up so that when someone comes to work it is with the intent of staying for a REASONABLE amount of time. When I say reasonable I mean a year max...
My intent is to make it so it covers the company in the event that a pilot leaves before the bonded time is completed, but also so it makes it worth it for the person to finish out the time to recieve a fairly significant bonus...
Anyone with specifics they feel should or should not be included I would greatly appreciate...
Thanks
Balls, evidently you havnt been in a position of having to re-train pilots every 2 or 3 months for the same position because they keep getting checkouts then leaving...
Granted their may be and/or are other reasons for them leaving as well, but it is a significant expense in both aircraft costs and training time as well as babysitting every time someone new comes online...
Basicly what Im trying to do is set it up so that when someone comes to work it is with the intent of staying for a REASONABLE amount of time. When I say reasonable I mean a year max...
My intent is to make it so it covers the company in the event that a pilot leaves before the bonded time is completed, but also so it makes it worth it for the person to finish out the time to recieve a fairly significant bonus...
Anyone with specifics they feel should or should not be included I would greatly appreciate...
Thanks
This is where it gets awkward.
If a company makes a job attractive enough, the pilot will not leave.
If a company makes a job restrictive enough, the pilot will not leave.
When #2 overtakes #1, and there still is an overwhelming number of appplicants, a shitty situation for pilots takes place.
Hopefully with the hiring boom about to take place, there will be an overflow of #1.
If a company makes a job attractive enough, the pilot will not leave.
If a company makes a job restrictive enough, the pilot will not leave.
When #2 overtakes #1, and there still is an overwhelming number of appplicants, a shitty situation for pilots takes place.
Hopefully with the hiring boom about to take place, there will be an overflow of #1.
Get to really know who you're hiring, phone references and find out how often they move around.
Take time to have a good interview with a potenial hire and if you pick them right you shouldn't have to worry about them leaving for at least a year, which is a reasonable length to expect someone to stay after being trained.
Training bonds are the scourge of the industry and compensate for managers who do not take enough time to research potential employees. Its a management problem, not your pilots problem. with the amount of people looking for work on this board you should be able to find someone who will stick around.
Take time to have a good interview with a potenial hire and if you pick them right you shouldn't have to worry about them leaving for at least a year, which is a reasonable length to expect someone to stay after being trained.
Training bonds are the scourge of the industry and compensate for managers who do not take enough time to research potential employees. Its a management problem, not your pilots problem. with the amount of people looking for work on this board you should be able to find someone who will stick around.
Listen to the pilot with the most grey hair....
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Rubberbiscuit
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fougapilot
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There seems to be a general misunderstood of what a training bond realy is. What Mr ML did is not a training bond, but rather financing his retirement on the pilots back (or so I think anyways).
A training bond (in its original form) is a contract between a pilot and a cie that establish re-payment of the $$ paid for initial training should the pilot decide to leave before the terms of said contract are completed. Training bonds are not well seen by pilots, but many Cie use them. Even the Air force uses them, in my days you were locked in for 5 years after receiving your wings (don't really know what it is now). In a training bond, a pilot doesn't have to fork the $$ up front and hope the Cie will live long enough to be paid back. This form of business is simply financing your employer.
Now, that being said, I have been lucky enough to never signed one (other then the Air Force). I agree that if the working conditions are good and if they are respected pilots will stick around for a while. On the other hand, I also agree that with the costs involved with initial training a Cie has the right to protect their investment, more so when the industry is booming. Personally, I feel that Cie should do their financial planning so that a pilot would be consider clear of his obligations aftera year in this position, but I guess its a catch 22...
D
A training bond (in its original form) is a contract between a pilot and a cie that establish re-payment of the $$ paid for initial training should the pilot decide to leave before the terms of said contract are completed. Training bonds are not well seen by pilots, but many Cie use them. Even the Air force uses them, in my days you were locked in for 5 years after receiving your wings (don't really know what it is now). In a training bond, a pilot doesn't have to fork the $$ up front and hope the Cie will live long enough to be paid back. This form of business is simply financing your employer.
Now, that being said, I have been lucky enough to never signed one (other then the Air Force). I agree that if the working conditions are good and if they are respected pilots will stick around for a while. On the other hand, I also agree that with the costs involved with initial training a Cie has the right to protect their investment, more so when the industry is booming. Personally, I feel that Cie should do their financial planning so that a pilot would be consider clear of his obligations aftera year in this position, but I guess its a catch 22...
D
Surly Joe...that's the ticket. Interview and check refs. Be up-front and honest about your company, working conditions etc. If the pilot dosent like it, he'll leave without either of you being out of pocket. But the problem is, a company will pound sunshine...you know where...and a pilot looking for a job will beleive anything you tell him?
We are stuck with trainning bonds. A year, maybe two, pro rated. For a realistic amount, agreeable to both parties. Maybe something in writting to protect the pilot regarding "rules of advacement" and what's expected regarding time off, duties etc. I think that would be fair, afterall, he is signing for a substantual commitment, and it should go both ways? And if a company is what it says it is, and if they keep up their end of things, they'll find most airplane drivers will stick around. They are a fact of life. I think they suck.....but then you all know that. BUT, and here's the biggy...If a company wants YOUR money up-front...........RUN AWAY.......RUN FAST!!
We are stuck with trainning bonds. A year, maybe two, pro rated. For a realistic amount, agreeable to both parties. Maybe something in writting to protect the pilot regarding "rules of advacement" and what's expected regarding time off, duties etc. I think that would be fair, afterall, he is signing for a substantual commitment, and it should go both ways? And if a company is what it says it is, and if they keep up their end of things, they'll find most airplane drivers will stick around. They are a fact of life. I think they suck.....but then you all know that. BUT, and here's the biggy...If a company wants YOUR money up-front...........RUN AWAY.......RUN FAST!!
Training bonds are the scourge of the industry and compensate for managers who do not take enough time to research potential employees. Its a management problem, not your pilots problem.
___________________________________________________________
Huh?... For those of you old enough to remember, training contracts/agreements/bonds reared their head about 15 years ago when AC started a significant hiring spree, along with the now defunct Canadian Airlines, and several start up large jet operators. Small, and yes, decent operators couldn't train fast enough before a major or larger operation would snag a pilot. Because PILOTS didn't have the ethics to be either up front (that they were looking elsewhere while being trained) or to stay when they gave their handshake that they would, training agreements became commonplace. If the issue was lousy management then there would have been training bonds in effect 40 years ago. These contracts are a relatively new development in aviation.
Certainly there are lousy managers with lousy ethics out there. There are also lousy pilots with lousy ethics out there who would jump ship to go to a larger airplane regardless of how well I or any other manager treated them.
Just as a question, does no-one out there believe that an operator has the right to protect his/her life savings or the financial well being of the of the company he works for? I must have missed the memo when aviation was re-designed to benefit the pilot and the pilot alone.
___________________________________________________________
Huh?... For those of you old enough to remember, training contracts/agreements/bonds reared their head about 15 years ago when AC started a significant hiring spree, along with the now defunct Canadian Airlines, and several start up large jet operators. Small, and yes, decent operators couldn't train fast enough before a major or larger operation would snag a pilot. Because PILOTS didn't have the ethics to be either up front (that they were looking elsewhere while being trained) or to stay when they gave their handshake that they would, training agreements became commonplace. If the issue was lousy management then there would have been training bonds in effect 40 years ago. These contracts are a relatively new development in aviation.
Certainly there are lousy managers with lousy ethics out there. There are also lousy pilots with lousy ethics out there who would jump ship to go to a larger airplane regardless of how well I or any other manager treated them.
Just as a question, does no-one out there believe that an operator has the right to protect his/her life savings or the financial well being of the of the company he works for? I must have missed the memo when aviation was re-designed to benefit the pilot and the pilot alone.
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centerstored
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Bezerker,
Sorry, but you're wrong! You can make a King Air job as attractive as you want...pay them $100,000 a year, provide a hand made schedule...blah, blah, blah...but when AC comes a knockin, your B200 rated pilot won't think twice. The bottom line is that companies like CMA, bearskin, Perimeter, and Georgian are stepping stones. Yeah, there may be a few who stick around, but will 1 in 60 really make a difference?
Sorry, but you're wrong! You can make a King Air job as attractive as you want...pay them $100,000 a year, provide a hand made schedule...blah, blah, blah...but when AC comes a knockin, your B200 rated pilot won't think twice. The bottom line is that companies like CMA, bearskin, Perimeter, and Georgian are stepping stones. Yeah, there may be a few who stick around, but will 1 in 60 really make a difference?
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complexintentions
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My 2 cents.
I don't have a problem with training bonds, in principle. That's training bonds as a promissary note pro-rated for a set period of time, not JetsGo bank loans bs, which I'd never sign on for anyway.
My two beefs are: bonds that bear no relationship to actual training costs, ie far more than the training cost. 10k for the min. time on a light turboprop? Get bent, PushyBoss-types. If you're trying to protect your company financially, fine. No problem. In fact I LIKE things to be defined by $$, because I know exactly what it'll cost me when, not if, I leave your stepping-stone-because-you-never-made-it-more-than-that company. But try to make profit on my training? I was hired to fly for your commercial venture, not act as a student in flight school.
My other beef is companies that still hold a grudge against you when you leave, even WHEN YOU PAY OUT THE BOND! If someone fulfills their word and pays you what they agreed to, and did a fine job while they were there, what right do you have to deny them excellent references because it "inconvenienced" you when they left, or it hurt your feelings, or WHATEVER?! There are SOOoooo many wanna-be managers out there, just as many as wannabe pilots.
Carry on.
I don't have a problem with training bonds, in principle. That's training bonds as a promissary note pro-rated for a set period of time, not JetsGo bank loans bs, which I'd never sign on for anyway.
My two beefs are: bonds that bear no relationship to actual training costs, ie far more than the training cost. 10k for the min. time on a light turboprop? Get bent, PushyBoss-types. If you're trying to protect your company financially, fine. No problem. In fact I LIKE things to be defined by $$, because I know exactly what it'll cost me when, not if, I leave your stepping-stone-because-you-never-made-it-more-than-that company. But try to make profit on my training? I was hired to fly for your commercial venture, not act as a student in flight school.
My other beef is companies that still hold a grudge against you when you leave, even WHEN YOU PAY OUT THE BOND! If someone fulfills their word and pays you what they agreed to, and did a fine job while they were there, what right do you have to deny them excellent references because it "inconvenienced" you when they left, or it hurt your feelings, or WHATEVER?! There are SOOoooo many wanna-be managers out there, just as many as wannabe pilots.
Carry on.
Obviously, the only pilots who complain about training bonds must also be the same ones who take the free training and then flock off; Using that training to go somewhere else for some perceived personal advantage, otherwise why complain? What's two years out of your life? If you're a year into your 2 year bond and A/C comes a knocking, chances are they wouldn't be looking at you if you weren't trained on that type anyway. And if a recruiter knew you had broken a commitment (even a verbal one) do you think you will be their first choice so you might do it to them?
I buy a new Challenger and offer you a job - you work for me for two years and I'll pay for your type rating (about $30,000 US, I think) and I pay you $100,000/year. At the end, if you are not happy or think you can do better, we part company. If you leave after a year, you owe me $15,000.
WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT?
I buy a new Challenger and offer you a job - you work for me for two years and I'll pay for your type rating (about $30,000 US, I think) and I pay you $100,000/year. At the end, if you are not happy or think you can do better, we part company. If you leave after a year, you owe me $15,000.
WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT?
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
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arctic navigator
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xsbank, I agree with you completely... however, if the person is prepared to skip out in the first place more than likely they're gonna skip out on paying the bond as well...
I am considering going the route of having to put up the money either up front or with monthly payments of some sort, having INTEREST PAID on the amount held, plus a bonus at the end... in other words its going to make you money in the end if you stick it out, but if you skip you loose big...
any opinions???
I am considering going the route of having to put up the money either up front or with monthly payments of some sort, having INTEREST PAID on the amount held, plus a bonus at the end... in other words its going to make you money in the end if you stick it out, but if you skip you loose big...
any opinions???
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fougapilot
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$100K for a startup pilot on a Challenger 
Arctic says:
If you want to do something different why don't you forgo the Training Bond and offer a pilot a extra few hundred dollars a month in bonus for each month he/she stay with you, payable after 1 year and continued to be paid annually for each full year completed after that. Instead of reaching into the pilot's pocket before he even starts give him the incentive not to leave.
Training Bond being a Bonus, now I have heard everything in this f***ing business!!! Maybe you can actually convince someone that it is, but please don't try and insult the intelligence of some of us.
Not sure I follow you on this one. First you talk about a significant bonus then you talk about signing a training bond. Don't you mean sign a Contract. Not sure how a company can turn a training bond into a bonus since it his the pilots money to start with.My intent is to make it so it covers the company in the event that a pilot leaves before the bonded time is completed, but also so it makes it worth it for the person to finish out the time to recieve a fairly significant bonus...
If you want to do something different why don't you forgo the Training Bond and offer a pilot a extra few hundred dollars a month in bonus for each month he/she stay with you, payable after 1 year and continued to be paid annually for each full year completed after that. Instead of reaching into the pilot's pocket before he even starts give him the incentive not to leave.
Training Bond being a Bonus, now I have heard everything in this f***ing business!!! Maybe you can actually convince someone that it is, but please don't try and insult the intelligence of some of us.
You Can Love An Airplane All You Want, But Remember, It Will Never Love You Back!
In the good old days (not always good BTW) training bonds were unheard of. Never even crossed the minds of employers. Pilots would come aboard with the intention of spending a couple of years with that operation (unless of course, Air Canada or Ward Air called) and there was at least some loyality between the two. The pilots were indeed more of a "band of brothers" than they are today. BBQ's most weekends. We'd stick up for the "team". And sometimes, the "team" was a little shitty, but we'd stick it out....things could only get better....right? If I had to start out today, in this atmosphere of total lack of trust, I'd rather drive a truck. Or stay in med school?
This whole traininig bond etc. thing makes me want to puke! Flying used to be fun....some may even remember this....but now, it's "us vs. them"! Who can screw who first? You want money up-front from me? To train me to fly your airplane? Bite me! You want me to shake your hand and stick around for two years....I'll be there for you. But you have to be there for me.
Yup. If I was fresh out of a flying school today. After parting with, what? 30 grand? And some air "service" asked me for 4-10K up-front for training, I'd tell them to "pound sand", and if you all had the "balls" to do the same, guess what? Training bonds would be a thing of the past. Where they should be (but I'll admit never will be) and we could all get back to the business of actually enjoying our jobs? Some say we have bonds thanks to scum-bag pilots? Guess what? We still have trainig bonds thanks to spinless pilots! Because the companies know we will continue to suck it up and sign on the dotted line. But it's a one way street here. It's ALL for the companies, with NO protection for the pilot.
Training bonds are like tooth decay...here to stay...unless you brush your teeth?
This whole traininig bond etc. thing makes me want to puke! Flying used to be fun....some may even remember this....but now, it's "us vs. them"! Who can screw who first? You want money up-front from me? To train me to fly your airplane? Bite me! You want me to shake your hand and stick around for two years....I'll be there for you. But you have to be there for me.
Yup. If I was fresh out of a flying school today. After parting with, what? 30 grand? And some air "service" asked me for 4-10K up-front for training, I'd tell them to "pound sand", and if you all had the "balls" to do the same, guess what? Training bonds would be a thing of the past. Where they should be (but I'll admit never will be) and we could all get back to the business of actually enjoying our jobs? Some say we have bonds thanks to scum-bag pilots? Guess what? We still have trainig bonds thanks to spinless pilots! Because the companies know we will continue to suck it up and sign on the dotted line. But it's a one way street here. It's ALL for the companies, with NO protection for the pilot.
Training bonds are like tooth decay...here to stay...unless you brush your teeth?
In the "good old days," getting typed meant a few hours in the circuit and a few stalls and you were away, as long as you had memorized the numbers. Not like that now...
There is still some confusion here - close your eyes and repeat after me: money up front for training? Absolutely f'ing NOT (company deserves to go T.U.) Company requires your assurance you will stick around after you are trained, and will ask you for your (pro-rated training costs back) WHY NOT?
There is still some confusion here - close your eyes and repeat after me: money up front for training? Absolutely f'ing NOT (company deserves to go T.U.) Company requires your assurance you will stick around after you are trained, and will ask you for your (pro-rated training costs back) WHY NOT?
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Arctic Navigator - won't work. You will not get a good candidate to work under the money up front route, only a desperate one who will probably hate you and cause you and your company nothing but grief (not to mention the grief this forum would dispense.) Make your candidates sign a 1, 1.5 or 2 year contract. You have to front the training, as a cost of doing business, as you appear willing to do. As long as everyone understands the process in the beginning, you will find your candidates will behave with integrity. Of the ten or more guys who've left my company in the last 5 years, only one defaulted on his contract and he is working it off by doing contract work for us. Try it. But don't do a Jetsgo, I'm convinced it would be a mistake.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Some time back, I was blindsided by Emirates. A total shock that as a direct entry 340C they wanted a bond! Nothing in their package, and brought up as a take it or leave offer. I thought the "pound sand" comment posted here was funny. Never thought of that, and I was much more dignified in my response to them having wasted their time and mine. Out of 8 guys there, no one took the job.
Looking back, pound sand would have been appropriate. I look at Pprune and see that they are now having some serious problems recruiting, including frequent resignations - wehhh-llll, la-dee-da, wonder why? What goes around, comes around, and now the industry will be seeing some of the shit they have sown bear fruit in large quantities I hope.
Looking back, pound sand would have been appropriate. I look at Pprune and see that they are now having some serious problems recruiting, including frequent resignations - wehhh-llll, la-dee-da, wonder why? What goes around, comes around, and now the industry will be seeing some of the shit they have sown bear fruit in large quantities I hope.
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just curious
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For us, no cash changes hands unless you depart the fix. As far as I know, the PPC is based on the dollar cost of the aircraft for the training and the ride. It is pro-rated over a year. You leave, say in 11 months, then you owe 1/12 of the original amount.
Sorry I don't know how much it is (nobody expects that I'll ever leave
), likely 5 or 6K for a Kingair or Otter. Ergo, bailing at 11 months would mean 4 or 500 bucks.
Stay for the year, and that's it. But we don't get cash up front. Promissory Note, that's it.
Sorry I don't know how much it is (nobody expects that I'll ever leave
), likely 5 or 6K for a Kingair or Otter. Ergo, bailing at 11 months would mean 4 or 500 bucks. Stay for the year, and that's it. But we don't get cash up front. Promissory Note, that's it.
