Why I hate the 172 so much

[Colonel Sanders]

Because people that learned to fly on it do this:

[Beefitarian]

We do?

[burhead1]

The bouncing i did that once, just once. The rudder thing and the close to stall, NO.

[Beefitarian]

Does anyone wonder if he logged 3.5 landings for that?

[Colonel Sanders]

Oh, all right. Here's a badly-flown taildragger:

[CpnCrunch]

Looks like he/she was actually learning to fly at the time (at Embry Riddle). Probably just as well it was a 172 - it would have been a lot messier in a taildragger. The 172 is a great training plane precisely because it lets you do crap like that without (usually) breaking anything. Also goes to show why you probably don't want to buy a plane that has been used for training, because this will have happened quite a few times!

[Colonel Sanders]

The 172 is a great training plane

And people wonder why I have the liver of an 80 yr old.

Sigh.

[Beefitarian]

That one's had the "low wing" mod.

[Beefitarian]

My wife watching the first video, "He's bouncing. Just like tigger!"
Third video, "That's not how you're supposed to land. Those are awfully expensive, you shouldn't be doing that if you don't know how to drive them."

[DanWEC]

Decreasing performance windshear. Check the WX wunderground stations. The rotational yaw around the normal axis can be had due to microbursts in sea level density muffler fluid.

[126.7_STFU]

Odd. Pretty sure I saw a Fedex MD-11 bounce down a runway a few years back and burst into flames @ Tokyo Narita. I hate pilots and that plane for this very reason.

[Colonel Sanders]

I posted a video of that a while back and the response
was, well, worse than reading about diurnal wind shear
during a spin cycle from wunderbra.

[Beefitarian]

I'm just going to try to keep getting quotes from my wife on these. Dan's post was a classic though.

"I don't think that's good for the tires."

[Colonel Sanders]

I know it's a repost, but nothing compares:

[Colonel Sanders]

Ok, eye candy time over.

Specifically what errors did the above pilots (esp
in the two 172 and piper videos) make?

How can you avoid making the same mistake?

[Genetk44]

Carrying too much speed?

[Beefitarian]

That's not funny. I like the airplanes better.

Strange, she usually says that when something Is funny.

Regarding all the bouncing, I would think you either have to avoid looking out the front windscreen or be pretty brave to just try to drive a plane into the ground like that. When I was first learning to land way back in the early 90s I had trouble with ballooning because I'd pull the yoke too hard when I saw the prop getting too close to the runway. I would usually follow that up with ok landings. I never bounced until way later and very seldom.

I have never ever porpoised, I almost feel left out when people talk about all those different ways landings can go wrong, because I spent all my bad landing training time ballooning then landing. It took me a long time to slowly stop ballooning. Looking back I don't know if there was anything that could have been said to help me through it quicker, I had a fairly large variety of instructors ride along. I think I just had to work it out.

[FenderManDan]

Ok, eye candy time over.

Specifically what errors did the above pilots (esp
in the two 172 and piper videos) make?

How can you avoid making the same mistake?

I looked at videos twice and obvious errors to me are the speed (unstable approach) on the final and elevator control on the flare. The second video c-172 pilot seemed to remember to pull back on the yoke after locking the brakes. The first one even seemed to try to push the yoke forward in one moment before the first bounce. The Piper was so hot, low-flat that I can't even see what the heck is he not doing. Seems like he screwed up long before the footage shows and perhaps tried to fix the sink with too much power/nose down.

I have to look at it again there is probably more.

How to avoid, well I guess learn to trim and get proper approach speed under control and why is that speed important. the second point is to understand the importance of the landing flare attitude and when the a/c is ready to land. Easy to talk about it I guess.

When learning landings first, I had an issue with the speed and fixation on the particular spot like a tunnel vision. Landings were rough on all three or floateeeee, but nothing too exciting. Once my brain decided to pay attention to air speed and feel, I started looking around and noticing other stuff and the plane just did it's own thing.

Another thing I liked with my second instructor is that allmost every approach and landing, after I figured out some things, was with a different configuration. It might be confusing, i know it worked for me.

Cheers

Dan

P.S Keep pulling that yoke or stick back, all the way to the chest/crotch....

[Beefitarian]

Keep pulling that yoke or stick back,

I guess that's the thing going wrong here. They seem to be trying to fly onto the runway.

When you land as you get very close to the surface you should be trying to slow down at the same time, then slow down enough to cause the wing to cease flying just before the wheels touch. It's optimum if you can do it so close and smoothly that once the tires touch, the plane is close enough that there is little noticeable transition to taxiing. Then taxi to where you want to park.

Those guys look like they are blazing in at a shallow angle hoping to skid it on.

Problems being if that angle causes a bounce, you get a more dangerous landing than a nice firm one. Or the guy that's down but starting to runout of smooth pavement. Braking friction isn't great if the plane is light because it's going so fast it's wings are creating a bunch of lift.

[Shiny Side Up]

Airplanes don't make bad langings, pilots make bad landings.

Airplanes don't teach pilots, pilots teach pilots.

You show me a pilot who's a bad stick, I'll show you an instructor who's a bad stick.

[Colonel Sanders]

You show me a pilot who's a bad stick, I'll show you an instructor who's a bad stick.

Well, now that you mention it, I don't think that most instructors
are really very good sticks. Most of them would struggle with a
15 knot direct crosswind in a 172 - which the POH says is within
the abilities of an "average" pilot - and you wouldn't let them loose
in a tube & fabric taildragger, which just drives . bananas.

Airplanes don't teach pilots

Uh, again, I'm not sure of that. Take a PPL with 50 hrs
and compare him with a PPL with 500 hrs and I would hope
you would see a difference!

Learning occurs regardless of whether or not teaching is
occurring. Sometimes not much learning occurs, despite
plenty of intensive teaching. Sometimes learning occurs
in the complete absence of teaching.

This is a humbling lesson for a flight instructor to learn.

[Beefitarian]

Poor practices lead to poor learning. Other wise many students would never pay a flight instructor.

"My buddy's going to show me how to do it. He's been flying for months. Then we're going to try to get bush flying jobs."

[Colonel Sanders]

Back on topic. What mistakes did these pilots make,
and how can you avoid doing them yourself?

1) excessive speed on final. This one is really obvious,
but it happens to us all, sooner or later, for various
reasons. A big mistake these pilots made, is that
they didn't do anything about it. Did they get the
power all the way off? Full flap? Maximum forward
slip with full rudder deflection

2) The biggest mistake these pilots made was
accepting the poor approach, and trying to force
it into a poor flare, and a poor landing. They should
have overshot when they realized they simply could
not get the airspeed under control when they crossed
the runway threshold. I will leave it to the psychologists
as to why so many pilots would rather wreck their
aircraft than go around. When I teach tailwheel, the
students learn that the simply can't accept a shoddy
approach, or flare, or touchdown, or rollout. When it
goes to hell, OVERSHOOT.

3) Oscillations. The Embry-Riddle pilot and the Piper
pilot (not to mention the U2 clip) tried to teach you
about oscillations but I'm not sure the lesson was
learned. Oscillations are really bad in aviation. Oscillations
in pitch during landing (porpoising) can rip the nosewheel
assembly off, and destroy the prop, engine and cowling.
Oscillations in yaw during and tailwheel landing will
ground loops and destroy a taildragger. Oscillations
during an ILS on both the loc and esp gs can result
in full-scale deflection and your death. Oscillations of
a flight control surface can result in flutter and the
surface exploding and departing the aircraft. A friend
of mind is dead now because his rudder fluttered on
his RV-7A.

As a pilot, you need to be very aware of the dangers
of oscillations. As a Good Stick, it is your job to actively
dampen them out (eg with rudder pedals in taildragger).

The U2 clip had a hint at the end:

FREEZE THE YOKE

Learn about what a PIO (pilot-induced osciallation) is.
Learn what causes it, and learn how to recognize it,
and learn how to fix it. Even if you only ever fly an
Embry-Riddle 172.

Unfortunately most pilots try very hard to induce
an oscillation, for example when they are "fishing
for a greaser" landing. Back and forth, and back
and forth the elevator goes. If there's anything
unstable in that system, by God, you're going to
find it.

When I teach tailwheel, I tell students once we
establish the aircraft in the 3-point attitude at a
foot or less above the runway - aligned with it -
to freeze the controls and don't do anything.

Don't do anything. The airplane sits down, then
the elevator comes back, and only minimal
rudder inputs as required. Again, if the taildragger
lands precisely aligned with the directly of
travel, it will continue to do so until the pilot
starts peddling on the rudders like he's riding a
bicycle down the runway. Again, working very
hard to try to find a resonant frequency so that
he can induce a divergent oscillation.



Don't do that.

[Colonel Sanders]

One lesson I try to teach students in the
cockpit: move slow. Relax. No fast hands
ablur in the cockpit.

For example, I'm flying with a student - possibly
on the way back from the practice area - and
he's tired, and it's bumpy, and he's working as
hard as he can to control the aircraft, and not
doing a very good job.

So I tell him - I have control. But I don't touch
the control yoke. He tries to, and I tell him to
relax, and watch.

I fly the aircraft using only the rudders, and very
occasionally a touch of pitch trim. That's it. And
the aircraft always flies much better, than when
the student is sawing away at the control yoke
in turbulence. Also frees your hands up for folding
maps, getting something to eat or drink or joining
the mile high club.

[akoch]

Makes me think I want to move my front wheel to the back Sounds like fun and can get me to the Mile High Club, yey!