Stay away from the edge:

[Colonel Sanders]

your rarified lifestyle affords you when it comes to exploring the performance envelope of airplanes.

Go back and re-read what I said about a single
seat Pitts S-1S available for between $20k and
$40k, which with a partner is between $10k and
$20k, which is less than your wife's last luxury
vehicle purchase.

Choices, Rockie, choices. We all make them.

The hard thing about flying a Pitts well isn't
scraping together the $10 to $20k it would
cost, to purchase one with a parter.

The hard thing is spending all those years
building that skill, which most people are
frankly far too lazy to do.

But most people don't want to admit that
in fact their failures are a results of their
laziness. That makes them very angry,
which we can see from the above posts.

I didn't fly tactical jets around for free either...I got paid for it.

Of course - and even less reason for me
to feel sorry for you.

[Liquid Charlie]

It's been a while since I flew a single engine airplane and I know the ones I did fly (maybe in another era) you would be hard pressed to make a turn back to the lake/airport - unless there was lake in front of you one would be better off taking the bush -- usually with a round engine anyway you had no forward visibility due to the fact the windscreen was covered in oil - or usually in the case of a hordyne one was likely only 20 feet over the trees and also exceeding gross weight -- hopefully things have changed - also ask any PC12 or Caravan driver -- their single engine is far safer that any twin so maybe these turns are not required except for airshows and "recreational pilots" but then I'm lead to believe these pilots don't fly enough to maintain the required skills -- guess that puts us right back at square one.

All can remember for sure is that I came closer to hurting my self more times in the first year of my commercial career than I have ever since -- maybe that says it all

[flyinthebug]

Back to the turnback: Read Dave's paper. He's
a bright guy. How do you think I learned how to
do it?

Men's egos are like the Hindenburg. Enormous,
but very delicate. At the risk of offending your
large, delicate ego, might I suggest the following:

If you spend a few decades learning to do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fcy4ZhGHHaE

Then you probably won't find a steep descending
turn at low altitude to be very difficult.

You are correct Colonel, I dont care to read anymore than I have to. That said, why read a paper talking about something I lived? Maybe i`ll write a paper and you could read what its like in real time, real life, real consequences.

I respect your opinion on many topics, as well as what you do for a living. It takes huge b*lls to do what you do. On this topic though, until you`ve lived it, you couldnt possibly understand. All the papers in the world mean nothing when your engine quits at 350'. Your training either kicks in or it doesnt. Im still here. No impossible turn required or attempted and believe me, as I looked back at the huge runway of a lake behind me, I seriously almost gave it a shot...as what was ahead wasnt very attractive either.

Liquid Charlie...well said.

Fly safe all.

*Edit* PS... Ok I scanned over the paper. They suggest once above 200' AGL that the turn can be done. They also stress that the FAA and FTUs teach to land straight ahead, and conventional wisdom supports that as well. So just to be clear, the author of this paper made sure to CYA with his "disclaimer" about FAA recommends etc etc. In anycase, I was 350' when I lost my engine. It took me a couple seconds to process all that was suddenly going on. I anticipate I lost around 100' before I was set in glide...so now im 250' with 50-75ft trees all the way back to the shoreline (Northern Ont YXL area). Even with that formula included in the link your provided (35-45 degree bank and maintain Vs+5%, I wouldnt have made it. It was a good read though, thanks for the link. Ill go back and play with the less cool kids now.

[Beefitarian]

Huh? Once again, Beef, you miss the point.

You do not see the irony in a guy who earns $200k/yr
for flying a few days a months, and had the taxpayer
pay for thousands of hours of jet fighter time, being
jealous of me?!

Ironic to the point of truly bizarre, Beef!

I'm just the aviation version of a teenaged girl that
hasn't learn to say "no" yet - someone wants to go
flying, and I say "sure!"

Beef: on the subject of jealousy, re-read this:

People sure have plenty of excuses. You made
your choices about how you lived your life, now live
with the consequences. And if you don't like your
life, don't blame other people - look in the mirror.

Of course I get it. I understand it more than most. You think he has more than enough money to buy your stuff.

Your other post reads like you wish you'd gone to the air force To fly fighters possibly less often than you have flown the L-39.

I think I wish I had your Pitts two seater but if I did it would just be going sour in a hanger while I did my wife's bidding/wasted precious time on here.

We're all jealous, it's natural as long as you don't let it get to you. I don't like me anymore than the rest of the AvCanadians do so I don't want to see a mirror.

[Rockie]

I didn't read Hedley's paper on turning back with a low altitude engine failure, but there is a large difference between what is possible in theory and what is possible in practice.

While Hedley may have practiced them in his remarkably cheap Pitts Special to the point of boredom, having it actually happen to someone for real (even him) especially if you've been "lazy" as he puts it and haven't practiced to the point of boredom, you will probably not make it. The reason for that is simple. Any kind of emergency like that would require somebody of Neil Armstrong's calibre and training to react instantaneously and correctly. The rest of us mere mortals will inevitably have that "Holy F**" hesitation and elevated heart rate which is only human. In other words we won't be at our best or as good as we think or hope we are.

Hedley excepted of course.

One of these days Hedley you simply must sign my logbook.

[Colonel Sanders]

Any kind of emergency like that would require
somebody of Neil Armstrong's calibre and training to react
instantaneously and correctly

More excuses, Rockie. Regardless of reaction time, if you
have never practiced it, you will never be very good at it.

Trying to teach yourself to do something dangerous
(eg turnback) on the spur of the moment is a really
bad idea. If you are going to attempt it, you need to
be trained and current at the maneuver.

This is really not very hard to understand, and really not
any different from any other emergency. As an airline pilot,
I am sure you are familiar with emergency training in the sim.

Are you arguing that no one should train for emergencies,
because they won't be able to handle them when they
happen in real life? Just bizarre, Rockie, just bizarre.

[126.7_STFU]

Life , as you said ... is about choices. I am not trying to be facetious, but could you enlighten me as to what choices you made in life (work/financial) , which allowed you to buy and operate a Smithsonian of fly toys?

Going to school for engineering doesn't cut it. My bud is a chemical engineer working at Walmart .

[Rockie]

Relax Hedley.

Nobody said we shouldn't practice for emergencies as you well know. I'm merely pointing out that most people don't have the opportunity to do that to the point of boredom that you do, and belittling them for it isn't going to make them.

We all know you're a s**thot airshow pilot with thousands of hours doing advanced aerobatics at zero feet. BFD. How does that relate to what 99.99% of the guys here do? You have a lot of knowledge to impart if you could manage to keep your gargantuan ego out of it. I know you can do it Hedley, I've seen you. If you can keep doing it without belittling people for not having your truly impressive talent and skills then I wouldn't have to mock you for it.

[Colonel Sanders]

Was just BBQ'ing dinner a few minutes ago. Leaning
against the corner of the hangar, I saw an Air Cadet
glider separate from the towplane far below circuit height.

He did a beautiful turnback and landed downwind in
the runway. Very pleasant to watch, as I cooked dinner.

Should I go over to the Air Cadets and tell them that
AvCanada says that what they are doing is dangerous,
shouldn't be practised, and is impossible unless you're
Neil Armstrong?

[Colonel Sanders]

The AvCanada "politics of envy" mantra that it's
the machine (and the money) and not the man,
is sticking in my craw.

I could give anyone on AvCanada a Pitts S-2B
and if they tried to do surface acro in it, they would
kill themselves. So, it's not really the machine,
is it?

I love to ride motorcycles. Let's say I rode my
literbike to Laguna Seca when the MotoGP circuit
was in the USA. In true left-wing, AvCanada form,
let's say I bitched and whined out loud about how
"lucky" Valentino Rossi was, to have a million-dollar
MotoGP bike to ride.

And let's say Rossi heard my class-anger bitching
and came over to me, and said,

"You rida my bike, and I rida yours"

And let's say we did that - I rode around Laguna Seca
on a MotoGP bike, and Rossi rode around at the same
time on my street literbike.

You know what would happen? Rossi would spank me,
first time, every time, despite the fact that he was on
my $10,000 bike, and I was on his $1,000,000 bike.

That doesn't make any sense, according to AvCanada.

AvCanada says that skill is unfairly purchased through
the opportunistic sweat of others to obtain hardware.

What ridiculous poppycock.

The motorcycle rider - and the aircraft pilot - is the most
important component. Has anyone here ever heard of
Human Factors? CRM? LOFT? I guess not.

If it's all about the hardware, why do we even bother
worrying about the operator?

Sorry, I just don't buy the left-wing mantra being
espoused here, to help people feel better about themselves
and their poor choices that they now think they have
made in their lifetime.

Cut the scapegoating. Grow a set, and take some
personal responsibility.

In the motorcycle world - where frankly, the quality of
character usually vastly exceeds the aviation fraternity - we
have a saying:

It doesn't matter what you ride - as long as you ride

Remember what Rick Volker said in his article? Get a
Pitts S-1S for $20k to $40k and fly it and fly it and fly
it and fly it. It won't always be easy or convenient, but
it will teach you an awful lot about aviation, that you can
use when you fly other aircraft.

[Colonel Sanders]

if you could manage to keep your gargantuan ego

Perspective moment, folks: a supersonic jet fighter pilot is telling
me that I have a "gargantuan ego".

Pot, meet kettle.

what choices you made in life

I write a little software, from time to time.

[126.7_STFU]

Was just BBQ'ing dinner a few minutes ago. Leaning
against the corner of the hangar, I saw an Air Cadet
glider separate from the towplane far below circuit height.

He did a beautiful turnback and landed downwind in
the runway. Very pleasant to watch, as I cooked dinner.

Should I go over to the Air Cadets and tell them that
AvCanada says that what they are doing is dangerous,
shouldn't be practised, and is impossible unless you're
Neil Armstrong?

HAHA! Please, more.

[Cat Driver]

For sure it is all about practice, practice, practice if you really want to be able to operate the machine nibbling on its aerodynamic edge..

...however the turn back after an engine failure is not one of those maneuvers, you either have the height / energy to complete the turn back in a given airplane or you don't.

It is having the knowledge of what you and the airplane are capable of and always have a turn back as one of your choices in the event the engine fails that will make the difference.

Hedley, the most demanding airplane I ever flew in the airshow circuit was believe it or not the PBY because if you ever push it beyond its aerodynamic limits the thing is unforgiving at low altitude.

I practiced and practiced each maneuver at at a high altitude for years and occasionally went beyond the limits with it and believe me it is a heart stopper once it flicks over.....

.....and it has a wicked aileron snatch ....

By the way the Beech 18 does lovely basic aerobatics... (just remember to cage the gyros. )

Now you kids can go back to dick measuring.

[Beefitarian]

You lost me at BBQ. What did you make. Heavy on details with pictures if possible!

[Liquid Charlie]

Well Cat I for one can safely say my dick is just a shadow of it's former self --

[Beefitarian]

Sorry about your loss?

[Rockie]

Should I go over to the Air Cadets and tell them that
AvCanada says that what they are doing is dangerous,
shouldn't be practised, and is impossible unless you're
Neil Armstrong?

This is puzzling Hedley since I'm pretty sure you know the difference between a Pitts and a glider.

AvCanada says that skill is unfairly purchased through
the opportunistic sweat of others to obtain hardware.

Did anybody say your skill was unfairly purchased Hedley? Put your hurt little boy feelings aside for a minute and try to imagine someone without your financial means getting the kind of practice till it hurts experience you have flying around the edges of the maneuver envelope. How would they do that do you think?

Seriously Hedley. How would they do that?

[Rockie]

The AvCanada "politics of envy" mantra that it's
the machine (and the money) and not the man,
is sticking in my craw.

I could give anyone on AvCanada a Pitts S-2B
and if they tried to do surface acro in it, they would
kill themselves. So, it's not really the machine,
is it?

Actually it's how much training and practice the person has in the machine. Some people can get their hands on a Pitts S-2B...most can't. Some people have the means to fly it until they're blue in the face...most don't.

Face it Hedley, it's not really the "man" either no matter how special you think you are.

[Colonel Sanders]

it's not really the "man"

Male Bovine Excrement, Rockie, and you know it.

You've been flying professionally for decades. I
give you an Aero Commander. Could you jump
in it and do Bob Hoover's routine? Of course you
couldn't. Neither could anyone on AvCanada.

It's completely the man. You really think I would
be faster on a motoGP bike around Laguna Seca
than Rossi on my street literbike? Of course not.

It must be terrible to be so crippled with your
class anger and politics of envy that you can't even
think straight any more.

no matter how special you think you are

Huh? The difference between me and you Rockie,
is that I do it, and you don't. It's that simple. You
have spent decades choosing not to do aerobatics
at the surface, while I have. Why is it surprising to
you (and angers you so greatly) that I have gotten
better than you at something I have practiced, and
you have not?

I haven't played a lot of guitar in my life, but I don't
get angry at Eric Clapton or Mark Knopfler. I would
be ashamed if I was. Petty jealously is not very
attractive, Rockie.

[Beefitarian]

I shouldn't defend him especially since he lumps me in with not only people like you bunch that have jobs, lives and such but apparently interweb bully folks that send him real or imagined threats.

Should I go over to the Air Cadets and tell them that
AvCanada says that what they are doing is dangerous,
shouldn't be practised, and is impossible unless you're
Neil Armstrong?

This is puzzling Hedley since I'm pretty sure you know the difference between a Pitts and a glider.

AvCanada says that skill is unfairly purchased through
the opportunistic sweat of others to obtain hardware.

Did anybody say your skill was unfairly purchased Hedley? Put your hurt little boy feelings aside for a minute and try to imagine someone without your financial means getting the kind of practice till it hurts experience you have flying around the edges of the maneuver envelope. How would they do that do you think?

Seriously Hedley. How would they do that?

Flight instruction at a school that let's you fly in cross winds I guess. I was with an instructor once long ago that I well under appreciated at the time. He pulled the throttle. Then he let me get the plane to where I was going to end up in a field near the runway. Then he said, "I have control." and glided it to the runway.

Was he magic or did he just have enough current time on type to really know what the plane could do?

If we dig up the thread where he gloa.. told us about practicing the maneuver, assuming it wasn't suppressed by the reptilians running this place, the mighty Hedley did his fancy turn back in a 172, can't recall the height.

[Colonel Sanders]

re: the turnback, which enrages so many self-proclaimed
blue collar pilots.

Objective suggestion. Take all the pilots in Canada who are
comfortable doing an immediate half-roll at minimum speed
on takeoff - I think there are less than five - and put them
in a 172, or any other certified single. Have them take off,
and pull the power at 400 AGL.

I will guarantee you that all those pilots will effortlessly make
the turnback and land on the runway. Compared to what else
they are used to doing in an aircraft, it's pretty slow and simple.

That's not arrogant, that's a simple statement of fact. I can
only apologize if the facts make you feel bad. If you have a
problem dealing with reality, perhaps some counselling or
therapy might be a good idea for you.

I really don't understand what the big deal is about the turnback.
I have done it many times. It's really quite boring, compared to
what else you can do in an airplane. I could eat a sandwich while
I did it.

Hey, that's a great idea for a youtube video - me doing turnbacks
for real, whie eating my lunch. Would that make you feel better, or
worse?

Then he said, "I have control." and glided it to the runway. Was he magic?

According to the experts, here, yes - he must have been a frikken
Harry Potter

[Beefitarian]

Blah blah blah, I'm so great. Everyone else could be great if they would quit choosing to not have a Pitts. They're only fourty grand..

Just answer my question already.

[Meatservo]

I hate this website. I have so many more fun things to do, like study for my recurrent training, or go down to the harbour to make sure my loads for tomorrow are all weighed.

Does anybody else wonder how they could possibly have got to the point when signing on to AvCanada seemed like a better idea than all the other things they could have been doing? f,uck this, I'm outa here.

[Beefitarian]

Hey, that's a great idea for a youtube video - me doing turnbacks
for real, whie eating my lunch. Would that make you feel better, or
worse?

It would be ok. If it ended with a clip of you yelling at some air cadets it would be better.

[Colonel Sanders]

if they would quit choosing to not have a Pitts. They're only fourty grand

Just answer my question already.

Beef. Didn't you just take your whole family to Hawaii for a
kick-a$$ vacation?

Choices, choices. We all make them. Try living with yours,
and don't blame anyone else for how your life turns out.