Stay away from the edge ---part 2.

[Cat Driver]

My original thread got locked, so thought I would restart it.


For many decades I have been reading about accident after accident where perfectly serviceable airplanes are flown into the ground and injuring or killing the occupants because the pilot got to close to the edge of either the weather limits or the airplanes stalling / spinning envelope.

Some of these accidents are the result of deliberately flying into weather beyond their or the airplanes capability or exceeding the airplanes flight envelope and some are because the pilots just plain allowed the limits to be exceeded through ignorance of what was happening.

Wouldn't it make more sense to teach them not to get to close to the edge period, rather than giving them partial training in instrument flying and spin training?

[Doc]

Your first attempt at instilling common sense into some who could use the lesson degenerated into a typical AvCanada pissing match. Happy to say, I was not involved.
Can we have some intelligent ideas, that might prevent some of our number being culled through sheer stupidity?
Again, common sense is, or could very well be our last defence against ourselves? "A man's got to know his limitations..."
If these limitations are in the form of the aircraft you fly ( a J3 flown by ANYBODY must reman clear of IMC!), your own experience level, or your training, when in doubt, chicken out!!

[Old Dog Flying]

Flying into Wiley Post airport, Oklahoma City, VFR, I asked for a weather update. The answer was 300 Obscured, 1/2 mile in Drizzle and Fog with CBs imbedded. The Approach controller asked my flight conditions..700 Ovcst, 10 miles and the Yellow Stripe up my back just got 3 feet wide. "There is a 10K' runway your 5 o'clock fr 3 miles, uncontrolled and no traffic". I know where the edge is.

Barney

[Rookie50]

As a fairly low time CPL; When in doubt; as to the aircraft; my own (IFR) recency / currency / fatigue level, or the true weather situation; I'm a chicken; and proud to be one. "I'd rather end up an old pilot than a bold one". I just don't get that close to the edge -- especially IFR or at night.

[robertsailor1]

I think knowing your limitations is spot on, if your smart/informed enough to know them. Natural selection will look after those that don't really know their limitations. As to fearing stalls/spins well I guess its like a religious debate, no one ever wins. There are some pilots that want to be able to take the word "unusual" from the phrase "unusual attitudes" and thats all fine and good, they will be better pilots for it. Others don't want to have anything to do with stall/spins as they have been taught to fear these attitudes when their instructors voice went up 3 octaves just talking about spins. And that is OK as well as long as they don't run out and do steep turns around their girlfriends farm and spin in or demonstrate spins to their friends. I taught aerobatics for years (years ago) and students were all amazed at just how much altitude is lost in a simple one turn spin, not something to be done at lower altitudes. After you demonstate stalling in a steep turn the discussion always goes to reminding the student how many pilots have done this very thing at lower altitudes..its very doubtful that this individual would not have a sense of his limitations in these situations, unfortunately if never exposed to this training he would not know his real limitations.

[CFR]

...its very doubtful that this individual would not have a sense of his limitations in these situations, unfortunately if never exposed to this training he would not know his real limitations.

Without proper training personnal limitations are often only discovered when they are exceeded.

[tbaylx]

Your first attempt at instilling common sense into some who could use the lesson degenerated into a typical AvCanada pissing match. Happy to say, I was not involved.
Can we have some intelligent ideas, that might prevent some of our number being culled through sheer stupidity?
Again, common sense is, or could very well be our last defence against ourselves? "A man's got to know his limitations..."
If these limitations are in the form of the aircraft you fly ( a J3 flown by ANYBODY must reman clear of IMC!), your own experience level, or your training, when in doubt, chicken out!!

Doc,

Never flown a J3 though i sure hope someone takes pity on me oneday and lets me come along in theirs for a ride. Just curious why one avoids IMC with a J3? Is it because it typically hasn't got much intrumentation that would allow it to fly IMC?

[tbaylx]

Avoiding the Edge...

Here's my take on it all. The industry is bass ackwards. We take our most inexperienced pilots with a fresh commercial license, hand them over a 185 or Navajo or whatever type and essentially with little or no training send them out to figure things out on their own. They are flying into strips with little or no navaids, no atc, no weather updates, no deice facilities and no sat. communications in the aircraft to talk to anybody, minimal avionics and often shoddy maintenance. Figure it out and live, don't and crash.

Once you have thousands of hours you fly an aircraft that has communications with everybody and their dog via sattelite, ACARS, VHF..great weather radar, don't really have to worry about inflight icing in a jet, ground support at every place you land, instant weather updates, a sophisticated autopilot and avionics, great maintenance and another highly experienced guy sitting next to you to watch your back and throw ideas at. Typically the working conditions are much better as well and there is little to no pressure to go anywhere as dispatch usually cancels the flight before you even see the weather.

I could go on..but you get the idea. Point is the new guys don't know what they don't know, and they aren't really given the proper tools to get the experience unless you are lucky enough to have a experienced pilot in the company take you under their wing and you are smart enough to shut your mouth and listen.

[tbaylx]

Oh and i found out how to fly IFR in a J3..(copied from some other clever poster on the net )

IFR Cat and Duck Method


Basic rules for the Cat and Duck Method of flying under the hood are fairly well known and are, of course, quite simple.

1. Place a live cat on the cockpit floor. Because a cat always remains upright, he or she can be used in lieu of a needle and ball. Merely watch and see which way it leans to determine if a wing is low, and if so, which wing.
2. The duck is used for the instrument approach and landing. Due to the fact that any sensible duck will refuse to fly under instrument conditions, it is necessary only to fling your duck out of the airplane and follow him/her to the ground.

There are some limitations to the Cat and Duck Method, but rigidly adhering to the following checklist will ensure a degree of success which will surely startle you, your passengers, and maybe even an itinerant Controller.

Check List

1. Get a wide awake cat. Most cats do not want to stand up at all and any time. It may be necessary to get a large fierce dog to carry in the cockpit to keep the cat alert.
2. Make sure your cat is clean. Dirty cats will devote too much of their time to washing. Trying to follow a washing cat usually results in a tight snap roll followed by an inverted flat spin.
3. Old cats are best. Young cats have nine lives but an old, used up cat with only one life left has just as much to lose as you do and will prove to be far more dependable.
4. Avoid stray cats. Try to get one with a good pedigree. Your veterinarian can help you locate a cat of good character, or try a good breeding farm. If in the city, try a reputable cat house.
5. Beware of cowardly ducks. If the duck discovers that you are using the cat to stay upright, he/she will refuse to leave without the cat. Ducks are no better on instruments than you are.
6. Be sure the duck has good eyesight. Near-sighted ducks sometimes fail to realize that they are on the gauges. The will go flogging along into the nearest hill. Very near-sighted ducks will not realize that they have been thrown out and will descend in a sitting position. This maneuver is very difficult to follow in an airplane.
7. Use land loving ducks. It is very discouraging to break out at 200 ft. and find yourself on final for a large lake. In hunting season, this can prove to be a problem due to the lack of judgment of duck hunters. They will shoot at anything flying.

[Rockie]

Without proper training personnal limitations are often only discovered when they are exceeded.

Exactly, but what kind of training?

When we talk about limits or the "edges" as Cat put it, we tend to think about regulatory limits or the now famous Vg diagram. Those are things that can be trained to proficiency if you have an indulgent employer who recognizes the value of such training in whatever aircraft you happen to be flying (extremely unlikely), or you have the financial means to go get that training on your own. Even though it probably won't help you learn the characteristics of the airplane you currently fly it is still very much worth the investment as it might save your life one day.

Personal limits are constantly variable. Training how to recognize those at any given moment is a lot harder, and it requires a deep knowledge of yourself and your capabilities along with the requisite technical knowledge, and no small amount of maturity to know when you're approaching those limits.

[Doc]

There is one problem with the cat and duck method.
If the cloud deck is on the ground, the duck will auger it in. Every time.
This is where the poodle and the 10 feet of rope comes in.
You hang the poodle out the window at the end of the rope.
While keeping the cat right side up, following the duck through the clouds,
you have to watch the poodle. When the poole starts running, you start your flare.

[iflyforpie]

We teach students where the edge is with training on aircraft designed for that purpose so hopefully they stay away from the edge in less forgiving aircraft.

But staying away altogether, I don't know. Theoretically, you could have a pilot who flies an Ercoupe all of his life. No rudder pedals, characteristically incapable of stalling or spinning. Can be landed at any speed, in any direction and it will simply straighten out on landing. Impossible to overload. It could break clouds simply by putting the throttle to idle and pulling full back on the stick until contact was made with the ground in a most likely survivable impact.

Or we have the Cirrus SR22 with the oh crap handle (the parachute) and the wings level button.

Now which is it? Is it staying away from the edges or is it the dumbing down of aviation? When is it progress and safety and when is it dumbing down? Even Cat Driver started flying in an era of dumbed down aviation in comparison to the guy flying air mail in a DH4 or the Sopwith Pup on the Dawn Patrol.

Me, my thinking is to gain as many emergency skills as I can (IFR, emergency maneuvers, mountain training, etc) and use them as little as possible. In my mountain flying, I rarely a rate one turn in terrain. If I do, I've made a mistake somewhere.

[Colonel Sanders]

IMHO any instructor that doesn't continuously
challenge his students to exceed their personal
limits and abilities isn't doing a very good job.

Find a good instructor, that will teach you the
skills that you need, to the level of proficiency
that you can attain.

Crap away, oh experts.

[Cat Driver]

Find a good instructor, that will teach you the
skills that you need, to the level of proficiency
that you can attain.

One more suggestion to what the Colonel said.

Be prepared to pay considerably more than the going rate for a really good instructor, because any instructor who is capable of properly teaching you the limits will also be smart enough not to work for peanuts.

[LousyFisherman]

I agree with the hire good instructors comment, Cat, but many really good instructors will work for peanuts just to train someone who is genuinely interested and prepared. However, I also agree, if you need to pay $150-$200/hour to get time with a really good guy/gal, pay it.

Also, get/use multiple instructors. Each one will present different ideas and techniques. I don't understand the newbie CPLs taking the 50 hour float course. I would drive around getting 1 or 2 hours from 25 different (experienced) float pilots. That also helps the network for the future job.

And finally as the Colonel says, fly as much as you can and practice to increase your skill. Fly when it is overcast at 4000 AGL (assuming there are no embedded CBs), practice stalls and steep turns, do some landings and takeoffs on runways that are 'harder' than your usuals.

YMMV
LF