City of Edmonton continues to screw aviation

[Shark]

Link:http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/edm ... story.html

This city continues to lie about their objective without any proper aviation plan or knowledge!
To start I don't think CZVL is the answer, but with the rumours of medivac company's being told that they must be repositioned by year end to YEG doesn't make any sense. Edmonton's nearest's ILS alternate's will be Calgary, Grande Prairie, and Fort Mac.

You have a county and community trying to come up with somewhat of a solution and this pathetic city vetoes it!
Sorry guys and gals for the rant, I'm just trying to keep whats going on in Edmonton relevant. As a citizen of this city we were promised a huge increase of destinations at YEG due to consolidation which has not happen. They have one agenda which is YEG only!

The point of this topic is if you are thinking of doing aviation business in Edmonton, think twice. You will eventually get screwed by Edmonton's airport authority and developer connected politicians. But don't you worry, will have enough tax money to build a billionaire his new hockey rink.

Shark

[Panama Jack]

Edmonton is Canada's Chicago.

[slowstream]

Actually maybe a little more like Detroit.

BTW I am from Edmonton, spent 50 years there until this year, but Edmonton's civic politicians have a long history of screwing the people of Edmonton and the aviation community.

[5x5]

BTW I am from Edmonton, spent 50 years there until this year, but Edmonton's civic politicians have a long history of screwing the people of Edmonton and the aviation community.

Unfortunately, they are not just screwing Edmontonians, but all Albertans, especially those in the North. Changing the medevac service from the best in Canada to one of the worst is hardly in keeping with their pursuit of "world class" status. And the change/relocation of medevac is going to cost all Albertans many, many millions of dollars. Much worse service for much more money - way to go Alberta Health Services.

But it's all OK in the end, because as the mayor said (quote in the Edmonton Sun Aug 29) -

Mandel said he’s excited about redevelopment plans for City Centre Airport.
His preference is for row houses and townhomes, he said.
“Not as many 20-storey buildings,” he said, envisioning family-friendly developments done with a lower profile.
“If we do it the right way, I think you’ll see it developed in five or six years.”

Wow - rowhousing and townhomes are way better than the transportation, medical services and flight training hub that the airport currently is.

And I added the bolding since Edmonton's track record for development projects sure makes that likely (heavy sarcasm applied).

[azimuthaviation]

ZVL was never an option. Lengthen, widen the runways, increase the allowable take off weight, install an ils, upgrade the atc, and build a road to it, before we even talk about aircraft infrastructure just to have an airport out in farmland three towns over from Edmontons boundaries.

[Beefitarian]

ZVL was never an option. Lengthen, widen the runways, increase the allowable take off weight, install an ils, upgrade the atc, and build a road to it, before we even talk about aircraft infrastructure just to have an airport out in farmland three towns over from Edmontons boundaries.

Well at least it should be a couple decades before the housing they build beside it starts being inhabited by the NIMBYs.

[azimuthaviation]

If aviation is to survive as an industry in Edmonton, the only solution I see besides leaving ecca open is to invest in a new airport entirely with private funds out in Enoch.

[Shark]

ZVL was never an option. Lengthen, widen the runways, increase the allowable take off weight, install an ils, upgrade the atc, and build a road to it, before we even talk about aircraft infrastructure just to have an airport out in farmland three towns over from Edmontons boundaries.

Agree 100%.
Even though Springbank and Villenuve share a similar design and masterplan, infrastructure and location are night and day in comparison.

Also agree with developing a new airport but I'm afraid that's wishfull thinking. Enoch has the land but the financing would be next to impossible to secure. The province doesn't have cash to burn at the moment. The feds won't spend a dime and we all know where the crooks at city hall stand, they created this mess. Your going to require some public funding for a build of this size.

Namao is an option but I don't know if they (military) would be open to us civies flying in and out.

In the end the best, cheapest, and most common sense solution is to keep XD open!
But welcome to Edmonton, there going to show this industry the door.

[azimuthaviation]

No I think private investors could be attracted. There's a lot of money in Alberta companies. If we are unable to make aviation a profitable self sustaining enterprise that people are willing to bank their money on, then we have no right to ask the municipality, province, or feds to subsidize us.

[5x5]

I slag Edmonton City Council as much as the next guy, and they deserve it for being so short-sighted and delusional. However, the real bad guys in the situation are the Edmonton Regional Airport Authority. They are only interested in CYEG and have no interest in having any other airports in the area. And with the flawed provincial legislation that created them as an autonomous organization answerable to no one, they can do as they please. And the same legislation also gives them the right to approve any new airports in the area, something they would never do. So a new airport isn't really an option. The land in Enoch may be outside their or the city's control, the airspace isn't.

It really sucks when you fly in an area where the exact people who are supposed to champion and promote aviation are the ones directly trying to destroy it.

[Skully]

Hello all. I am a long time lurker here, but this topic makes me want to speak up.

I am as angry as the next about the joke that is Edmonton's aviation industry. Promises made during the fake discussion of 2009 have been ignored, assurances destroyed, and now even the authority is alienating allies and acting more like the railroad monopolies of the past.

Villeneuve is the last straw. While other jurisdictions have reliever airports, Edmonton Airports seems bound and determined to ensure that nothing happens out there. They want everything out at YEG, and if it won't come there, then they want it destroyed or ignored. They have created such a huge mortgage on that property, I understand now that they are trying to compete for revenue from the county by luring Costco and other stores to set up shop there. How is that improving our aviation offering. Now I come to understand that Reg Milley is the highest paid CEO of an airpoirt authority in Canada at 3 million a year???!!! I would dearly love to know on what emperical basis of delivery he deserves that salary!!!!! Hell, if it isn't true, he doesn't deserve 1 million a year based on the lacklustre delivery out there. They built a shopping mall, not an airport!

What I don't understand is why the Province does not step in and make the authroities accountable? They run with impunity. I also don't understand how this does nto get out, unless the public is just apathetic to aviation here.

I know I'm at my wits end. Any ideas? I hate seeing this industry be killed by selfish mall owners, a dysfunctional council, and a population so full of fantasy thinking.

My only idea is to lobby to have the act revisitied and rewritten.

[Tom H]

Couple of corrections...and no I am not defending anyone

1)

And the same legislation also gives them the right to approve any new airports in the area, something they would never do.

Having read the act through and through they have no say in the creation of a new private airport outside of the airports an authority specifically controls.

But the Capital Region Board made up of the Counties and Municipalities, including Edmonton with what amounts to veto, does beyond what currently exists.

2)

The land in Enoch may be outside their or the city's control, the airspace isn't.

Pretty much same here as the airspace is controlled by Nav/Can and Transport.

So yes if you could raise the money and get past the Capital Region Board you could open a private airport close in. If you couldn't get past the CRB you could do it farther out...but what would be the point?

Moving on from corrections...
3)

It really sucks when you fly in an area where the exact people who are supposed to champion and promote aviation are the ones directly trying to destroy it.

Prove that and you win the battle, but very much easier said that done in the political and legal system.

The big problem...no one is talking to the public so they have no idea of what is happening unless they know someone in the industry.

My personal opinion

[Shark]

[quote="Tom H"]
The big problem...no one is talking to the public so they have no idea of what is happening unless they know someone in the industry.

Disagree with you on that one Tom. Back in the 2010 civic election year the pro airport movement spent a tremendous amount of personal money and time fighting to keep the airport open. The pro airport group tried in vane to get the airport's story out to the public but lost the public image battle due to a bias media who would give the first and longest video spots to the Edmonton politicians and pro airport closure individuals. Countless attacks from editorial journalists spewed one sided stories of the great potential of the land being developed. The airport was quickly labelled a place where rich men would keep their aircraft and that the benefit of the airport to the city of Edmonton had run out.

Getting the public opinion on side with the airport is paramount, but it has been tried. If anyone has any ideas on tackling this issue, by all means throw it out there.

[Panama Jack]

Airports are bad, unless of course it is February, -30 degrees outside, and you are looking forward to jumping on an airplane down to PVR for a few weeks on a Vacation Charter airline.

[Beefitarian]

Airports are bad, unless of course it is February, -30 degrees outside, and you are looking forward to jumping on an airplane down to PVR for a few weeks on a Vacation Charter airline.

OMG, I know right? They totally shouldn't be like in town right?

[Skully]

. The airport was quickly labelled a place where rich men would keep their aircraft and that the benefit of the airport to the city of Edmonton had run out.

Getting the public opinion on side with the airport is paramount, but it has been tried. If anyone has any ideas on tackling this issue, by all means throw it out there.

I apologize, but I am going to pick on this one for a second.

Saying that the media picked on the rich guy thing, and yet Envision offered up rich guys with planes as their primary spokespeople, kind of makes that a self-fulfilling prophecy. If that is not a piñata offered up for the media and internet hippies to bash all over, I don’t know what is! I could go on, but that is another topic.

That said, and getting on the topic of the next steps, the key lesson from the above is that more people from all stripes need to be directly involved if you are to change anything. Only then will you get public opinion to change.

When it comes to ZVL, there needs to be more people demanding action. Otherwise, the media and opponents can make this into a bunch of angry people on the internet still pissed about YXD, and not about people defending an industry.

The same could be said about that Namao plan. Where were the loudly supportive people?

If people here truly think there is an injustice, or simply want opportunity and have the powers listen, you all are going to have to do more than type here. Write a few MLA’s and even an MP or two. I don’t see a group forming demanding work on ZVL. That is easily interpreted as no one cares, and the status quo is acceptable.

[imarai]

The Namao Plan would have been the correct way to expand and support aviation in Edmonton. Is Edmonton like Detroit? Completely wrong. So wrong I can't even begin. You've been to Detroit? Zero similarities. Is Edmonton civic politics populated by near-sighted naval gazers? Yes, and it has a proud history of it, starting back in the early 1970s. There hasn't been a private pilot or commercial pilot on city council in decades. (Please correct me on this point if I'm in error.)

I've observed a general downturn in general aviation globally. I'm certainly not alone in this observation, and for a variety of factors, it seems unstoppable. Do most cities value their urban airport? Yes, most do, (London, England, and Orlando, Florida, come immediately to mind), but keep in mind that cities have always got huge revenue from real estate developers, and they lobby and scream to city politicians every hour of every day. Aviators and general aviation users don't have the full time ear of any city council member that I know of. Real estate developers do, thus they can turn a piece of land into a multi-million dollar proposition seemingly overnight, to the delight of the city council. General Aviation's best days seems to have past.

[Skully]

Yes, I've been to Detroit several times. It is not Detroit. I fail to see the correlation though, please enlighten me.

I agree that there hasn't been a vocal private or a commercial pilot on council, but there are some in adminsitration. I also know for a fact based on discussion with many developers that you allege have an ear to council that are pilots, or love aviation, or both, and even some that are absolutely angry with the city centre decision. They look at the development plan that is currently there and they hate it. They are now even angrier at the delay at ZVL. So, painting developers as anti-aviation is a bit misleading.

To also say that aviation and general aviation members do not have an ear would be misleading. Councilor Haytor for one was on board, and he still holds the record for the longest serving councilor. There were 3 nays on the last vote, so again, there are supporters. Historically, there are many councilors that like aviation, otherwise the YXD debate wouldn't have gone on for so long.

You take an extremely poorly executed Envision Edmonton campaign and turn that into every developer hates aviation and that there is no support for general aviation. The attitude here seems a bit defeatist. I see the issue being more an operating body that simply does not want to deal with the industry unless you want to be at their temple and pay AAA rates.

[Indanao]

Being from Edmonton I fail to see why the Yellowhead was ever used as an argument, as YXD was supposed to be an obstacle to it. The Yellowhead Highway is either a road to Loydminister or the Coquihalla Highway from Edmonton. Not many people coming up the Coquihalla are going to Loydminister and vice versa. But, a lot more traffic will be generated if there is an Airport at the other end.

City Center Airports are a thing of the future.

[Skully]

Ok, I thought this thread is about Villeneuve and how the City and others continue to make aviation a bad thing. I didn't think this would go into yet another discussion on the City Centre Airport.

This explains a lot.

[Shark]

[quote="Skully"]
Saying that the media picked on the rich guy thing, and yet Envision offered up rich guys with planes as their primary spokespeople, kind of makes that a self-fulfilling prophecy. If that is not a piñata offered up for the media and internet hippies to bash all over, I don’t know what is! I could go on, but that is another topic.

You sir are completely wrong.
Envision Edmonton's Chairperson is the only member of Envision Edmonton who had a private plane for personal use. And might I add he has kept it out at YEG for as long as I can remember. The rest of the members involved with the group in which you are quoting as being rich people with planes are nothing more than business entrepreneur's. These are people who yes owned some planes, and yes made some money (not all of them even owned a plane). But by no account are living the high life jet setting around the world. They are small business owners. As well their primary spokesperson through out the campaign was the local flying club manager. You just know he goes home to a bed full of money every night!

Here's a link below which list the key members of Envision:
http://www.envisionedmonton.ca/about.htm

The individual in which would continue to use the sound bite of "The airport is only used by rich people to keep there planes close" was Mayor Mandel himself. The media ate this up.

It's either you were a sucker to the leftwing media in this city, or you don't have a clue. Envision tried their best to keep the airport open. Please enlighten us on how you would have saved the airport?



[quote="Skully"]Ok, I thought this thread is about Villeneuve and how the City and others continue to make aviation a bad thing. I didn't think this would go into yet another discussion on the City Centre Airport.
This explains a lot.


By closing the airport, the city and EIA have pretty much given the aviation industry the finger. The city centre airport closing is the problem!

[Skully]

Well, by sitting and whining post decision, then the nail is further driven into the coffin to complete any hope of developing an industry here. Instead of holding people to account for promises post decision, continuing to whine is just like using Charles as a spokesperson. Simply put, a bad idea that plays into the hands of the aviation opponents of being spoiled brats that will simply whine, pack up, and take their toys if they don't get their way.


Maybe, just maybe, you need to remember many of the backers who may not have publicly been a part of Envision, but everyone knew were playing. Maybe, just maybe, you need to realize that having Charles as a spokesperson simply played into the hands. To a casual observer, it took no time at all to make the leap and it didn't matter where he stored his airplane. Maybe, just maybe, putting a terminal in the airport design proposal was a really, really, really bad idea. Maybe, just maybe, you need to realize that the approach based on doom, gloom, and the same old rhetoric did not enter the hearts and minds, but alienated many. Hearts and minds arguments take empathy, and Envision lost it with circus antics. Perception is reality,and antics played right into the hands of those who were ready and waiting to call airport people planet killers, sprawl supporters, and spoiled brats. A real warrior would admit a flawed approach.


Maybe, just maybe, instead of stomping our feet and saying gimmie gimmie gimmie, one could play the same Capital Region Planning Board game and go after the development planned on site for the numerous flaws inherent to the design, the bad promises that will never be built, and empirically proving that the market doesn't need nor want this development combined with the arena development. Maybe, just maybe one could ally with the numerous developers in the city that do want the CCA to remain open. Possibly, just possibly, one could exploit the continued lack of development at Villeneuve, and look at flaws inherent in the set up of a regional board as compared to the one south of us. No, that would take patience, thinking, and effort. Better to just whine than exploit the colossal blunder that is the development post 2010.


So, if closing YXD gave everyone the finger, then I guess we all should just roll up and die. I know time on this thread tells me to do just that. I'm trying to save an industry. If all we as a community will do is cross our arms, stick out our lower lip, and pout, then I'm out.

[Shark]

quote:Skully

Really??? It was all Envision's fault for the airport closure? And you know developers out there that didn't want that land developed and would wish to keep the airport open? Give me a freaking break! I can't say I agreed with every little thing Envision did but they sure the hell weren't the reason the airport is in its current state.

Where the heck were you? You seem to have all the answers! With all your developer buddy's we would have been saved! You make it sound like all the airport had to do was to work with the city? Are you kidding me! They (the city and airport authority) promised that the airport would never close in the first place years ago. Thats why they gave numerous companies 40 year leases which there now willing to break.Their words mean nothing and you can't work with them!

Get one thing straight Skully, I'm not whining, I'm pissed off! I have a great job at that airport, good quality of life, and descent pay. If that place closes, there is a great chance I will lose that job. And with the current state of aviation in Edmonton, that will mean I will have to move away. And over a scheme to open up some land for townhouses cause you know there is a shortage for townhouses and land. What a joke!

Richard, I think you should go back to your connect 2 Edmonton site. I know you guys have it all figured out over there!

[Skully]

I used to never believe in horoscopes. Mine today said that I may be in for a big change today, and that it could be a great one. Big things are in store.

I always hated the name Mark. It sounds like a dog with a hairlip, Mark Mark Mark. However, I'd rather have the lottery win than a new name. I think my parents would roll in their graves.


It is sure nice to know that if you have a different opinion, people here try to call you someone else.


I've been on connect 2 edmonton, but I'm not popular there either. I am not gay, I live in Sherwood park, and I vote Conservative. That pretty much makes me a villian.

Sorry about your job. I've lost 2 in my life and it isn't fun. I ended up with a better one in the end though.

[Tom H]

So if the flaming is over.....

Lets look at what is known and can be supported by documentation (edit) or physical evidence that can be proved. (ie: no earth work at CZVL to extend runways etc.)

(edit)BTW if anything listed as factual is incorrect and you have information to the contrary it would be appreciated.

1) ECCA is slated to close...regardless of the efforts of Envision and many people not connected with them.

2) A notice, which I have a copy of, outlines the City is proceeding with the area development plan and on Sept 19th COE Executive committee will be asked to approve commencement of expropriation of various interests within the boundaries of ECCA.

3) No actual work has commenced at CZVL or Namao to accommodate medical flights requiring an alternate runway of more than 3500' or ILS for any reason.

4) Businesses that cannot afford to be at CYEG and require more than 3500' of runway have no choice but to leave the Edmonton area when 12/30 is closed.

What else is fact?

Then there's the rumors...to me a rumor is anything that cannot be printed or copied to prove it's fact, with or without a business or persons name censored out. Verbal is a rumor if it can't be backed up in print, original or copy.

- Some businesses currently in operation have received 30 day notice to leave the buildings rented at ECCA.
Is it just a rumor? Can anyone provide printable back up data?

- Air Ambulance Operations have been given till Dec 31,2012 to move operations to CYEG.
Is it just a rumor? Can anyone provide printable back up data?

- Businesses at ECCA have been forced to shut down or close due to rental/lease rate increases at ECCA
Is it just a rumor? Can anyone provide printable back up data?

Questions...

Why is it I hear about every time STARS even moves but never anything about fixed wing Air Ambulance?

Why is it I'm not hearing concern about an alternate air ambulance site from the Northern Communities?

Also not hearing anything about businesses/jobs that have already been lost?
(edit) Also not hearing anything businesses/jobs that will be lost because there is nowhere to move to?

Is there real interest from Aviation businesses to have a real second airport that had 6000' and rates that could be lived with rather than what is offered south of us?

If someone wants to stick their neck out and push on a viable second airport what else can be shared?

Inquiring minds want to know...from this side of the story.