I wish new C-172s were a bit better.

[Colonel Sanders]

Cirrus has marketed its airplanes to generic rich guys (i.e., nonpilots) with ads in generic rich guy magazines, a strategy that Beech, Cessna, and Piper pursued in the 1970s but gave up when airplanes went out of mass production and yuppies decided that flying themselves around was too dangerous

That's funny. Anyways, I actually think the SR-22
and Columbia 400 are both very nice little nosewheel
airplanes. Speedy with lots of blinking lights.

I wouldn't use them for primary training, though.

[Beefitarian]

I'd like to try one of those SR-22 but something about the side yoke doesn't feel right to me on the ground.

I like these composite planes. http://www.cessna.com/single-engine/corvalis-ttx.html

[moocow]

Also, don't forget Cessna don't have to redesign their stuff every few years due to regulation changes. Unlike cars, airplanes aren't required to pass new crash, emission, fuel consumption standards. Material wise, aircraft already went to the lightest material unlike cars which still use a lot of steel. Hell, even the new Audi A8 went from all aluminum back to a steel / aluminum mix. Everyone is being held back from cheaper and better composite. Remember, Diamond planes do have a upper temperature limit for their composite structure, at least for the DA20 I been looking at.

[akoch]

Remember, Diamond planes do have a upper temperature limit for their composite structure, at least for the DA20 I been looking at.

Oh, not again

[Beefitarian]

Are they the only ones? There's lots of composite aircraft, heat must affect them also.

[akoch]

It does affect all of them. Yet plenty of composite parts are flying in the space, or FL35. But it keeps coming up.... but there is the red dot for indication, but the sun will melt them all, but... I guess no one listens to owners who fly them and don't seem to complain.

[Beefitarian]

Well, at least the Diamonds have this red dot thing. Do the other planes have some form of indicator? I'm wondering if something like this was a factor in that lady in Turkey with the SR-22.

[akoch]

Diamond's philosophy (and selling point) is the crew safety and the track record that is best in the industry by a considerable margin. So they have been going an extra mile and stipulate the temperature limitations, put the indicators in etc. This is also why they refused to enter the LSA market (not enough safety margin provided due to the category limitations in their view).

Since practically speaking the temperature is not a factor for the structural strength, the other manufacturers do not bother.

Regarding the Turkey SR22 case I thought it was the flight into a thunderstorm. Turkey is a warm but not hot place (moderate Adriatic). It does not get 54C+ there. And the safety record of the Cirrus aircraft is a separate discussion. I certainly don't want to butt heads here I think in a different thread somebody flying a Cirrus was fairly adamant that it is the safest airplane in existence, plus a parachute. My personal view is very similar to that one in the article from Phillip G above. Except I would never have guts to fly one

[Beefitarian]

It's easy to find lots of incidents on the internet. Someone here said something like, "I'm surprised anyone gets off the ground." in another discussion.

[Shiny Side Up]

Sure:
Vso=36 KIAS - check
Large fowler flaps (45 degrees LND) - check
Absence of major AD's (not a single one on the airframe) - check
No known frame failures in flight - check
Simplicity -check
Utility - check

in addition - 5.5GPH for 140KTAS cruise; Vne=168KIAS; rate of climb over 1000fpm

I'll assume in this case you're describing a DA-40, but your numbers are significantly out. While the 140kts is possible, to achieve that you're usually looking at a close to 9.5 - 10 GPH burn to do it. While I suppose to some its fun to see bigger numbers on your airspeed indication, the DA-40 readily shrinks your range circle considerably with that power setting on your neat little moving map display. We typically cruised at about 130 which made the beasts a little less thirsty at around 7 GPH, but substantially increased your zero wind range. Either way, despite going slower the contemporary C-172 R and S models would grossly out range the DA-40, and definitely out haul them. Speaking of Utility the DA-40 essentailly became a two person airplane with a full load of fuel. With me and another guy who was somewhat smaller so we averaged out to two 180 lbs pilots we had a whopping 35lbs left extra for bags. Lucky for me I travel light and don't carry around one of those giant flight bags. Often people are under the illusion that composite aircraft have lighter airframes than similar aluminum ones, but that's far from the truth, especially when you see how much steel underlies the DA-40 which accounts for its whopping empty airframe weights of around 1750lbs - its almost comparable to 182 numbers, and about a hundred pounds heavier than most of the 172s. This really eats into the aircraft's utility, since any use of he rear seats really eats into the aircraft's range. In all, despite vaunted claims, its overall performance was rather disappointing. Nice plane though, but not a useful one.

Incidentally, one should also note that none of the strutted Cessna models have ever had in flight break ups either (which is in stark contrast to the record of their "unstrutted" classic models the 177 and the 210).

The point is that while most of the new designs beat the ol' Cessna in some facet, they are never as good of all rounders. Even Cessna figured out they really couldn't mess with it back in the day, see why the Cardinal didn't become a success.

2) 1980 aluminum airframe could be replaced by composite
with the advantage of less weight but at a higher cost. It is
interesting that the homebuilders, who have absolutely no
paperwork hurdles, have chosen aluminum over composite -
see RV-X

Again, this would be true if we were talking about carbon fiber, but as of yet I most out there use glass fiber which main component is silicon. Consulting the periodic table its not hard to see why aluminum is the choice material, forming complex shapes aside, aluminum airframes are always going to be lighter, a prime consideration with aircraft design. Carbon of course would be lighter, but if I was to project what an entirely carbon fiber airplane would cost from what carbon fiber fairings for my motorcycle cost vs plastic ones, your typical 4 seat piston airplane would crack the million dollar mark.

The big bonus that composite (glass fiber planes have is the ability to make nice drag reducing shapes, so its only really worth it if you're making something that goes fast as its prime consideration a la the Rutan designs or going all the way with speed performance above all other considerations like the Columbia/Corvalis, Lancairs and to a bit lesser degree the Cirrus (which like the Diamond is too much of a compromise so it doesn't take the full advantage of what can be achieved with the composite - the grossly heavy airframe really makes it somewhat of a less utility airplane than the sales brochure would have you believe).

[akoch]

Great post! I actually agree with the most in it.

The numbers were for the DA20.

The newer DA40 xls will actually cruise at 150 KTAS on 7.8gph. They improved it a bit.

Neither 172 nor DA40 are honest 4 seaters/full fuel. 172 needs more fuel for the same range, hence eating into the payload. Compromises, compromises.

I guess it comes down to which airplane you'd rather fly. All of us vote with their dollar. So far Cessna seem to be doing well.

I will take an Albatross. Well, may be in the next life. Lucky Colonel

[Colonel Sanders]

You can buy a flying L39 for less than a used SR-22.

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/1141952.html

And I'll bet the L39 is a lot easier and cheaper to
maintain than the Cirrus. Specifically, I wager that
I would spend less to maintain an L39 because I
do it myself, than some who just tosses the keys
for their SR-22 to an AMO.

Choices, choices.

Heck, here's a deal akoch. You buy that one above,
I will teach you to fly it and issue you your type
rating to you on your Canadian pilot licence.

Quit with the excuses already.

[Shiny Side Up]

The numbers were for the DA20.

In that case I've never seen one that would achieve those sort of cruise numbers, the GPH yes, the TAS no. Not sure what you're defining as utility either. A DA20 you choose between a passenger or a suitcase, that really cramps its utility. As I said earlier, the DA40, lets you bring a suitcase, only if you don't let your wife pack it. While the 150 doesn't do much better than the DA20, it does at least have the option of some room for a larger suitcase, And I've moved a few bulky items with one as well which would not be possible with a DA20, or a 40 for that matter. That's utility. The 172 gives you even more, while the DA40 may be a 2 person plane with full fuel, the 172 is a three person airplane, or two adults and two kids, with a bit of luggage to boot. More importantly its utility it way more. You can dump jumpers, you can stuff a 50 gallon drum in it, you can put it on floats, use it as a camera ship. Hell, you can put hardpoints on it. Say what one wants about struts, but they're great for sticking things on.

Neither 172 nor DA40 are honest 4 seaters/full fuel. 172 needs more fuel for the same range, hence eating into the payload. Compromises, compromises.

Indeed, though as above the 172 has around a 150 to 200 lbs advantage on the DA40 and a way more tolerant CoG envelope. The advantage of an aluminium airframe.

I guess it comes down to which airplane you'd rather fly. All of us vote with their dollar. So far Cessna seem to be doing well.

In many cases though, there's only one airplane that will do the job. Its hard to ignore the fact that for a majority of general aviation pilots needs the Cessna can do it. Maybe not with as much style. Its a working plane, so needless to say you'll always find more people who need something that makes them money than machines just for pleasure.

[akoch]

I would never buy a Cirrus, not my type of the airplane.

I would appreciate if you could share the maintenance and running costs for the L39. Not that a "200h wonder" like me can fly it safely anytime soon, but it does not stop me from dreaming....

[Colonel Sanders]

if you could share the maintenance and running costs

People ask me that question all the time. Here's
my answer: "All of it".

Any aircraft will absorb all your time, energy and
free money, regardless of how much you have.

Heck, here's a deal akoch. You buy that one above,
I will teach you to fly it and issue you your type
rating to you on your Canadian pilot licence.

Quit with the excuses already.

The harder I work, the "luckier" I get. A lot
of people here don't like me very much, and
don't think I'm a very nice person.

When was the last time you heard someone
here make that generous an offer?

[akoch]

The numbers were for the DA20.

In that case I've never seen one that would achieve those sort of cruise numbers, the GPH yes, the TAS no. Not sure what you're defining as utility either. A DA20 you choose between a passenger or a suitcase, that really cramps its utility.

Actually wrong. Or you simply did not have a chance to fly a DA20-C1 model. Especially with the MT prop. Mine is relatively slow for some reason, but I still reliably get 135-145 KTAS. I'll be glad to let you fly it and confirm. The other one around here is consistently 10KTAS faster than mine for whatever reason.

It takes three "standard airline style" suitcases and then some. Not a utility demon, but usable. That's how I ferried it from Kansas.

[akoch]

if you could share the maintenance and running costs

People ask me that question all the time. Here's
my answer: "All of it".

Any aircraft will absorb all your time, energy and
free money, regardless of how much you have.

Heck, here's a deal akoch. You buy that one above,
I will teach you to fly it and issue you your type
rating to you on your Canadian pilot licence.

Quit with the excuses already.

The harder I work, the "luckier" I get. A lot
of people here don't like me very much, and
don't think I'm a very nice person.

When was the last time you heard someone
here make that generous an offer?

Last time it was a Diamond Center sales person trying to hook me on the spot for a DA40. "You buy this one today, I'll give you $60k off the sticker price" kind of thing.

Appreciate the offer So far I have had no issues with your personality. We are all weird in a way. I think that if I was from around Ontario I'd have loved to take lessons from you on all those great planes you have in your hangar.
How come selling the L39 now?

[Colonel Sanders]

How come selling the L39 now?

Huh? The one above is in California.

There are 4 on the Cdn registry now - it would
be nice to have a 5th

So far I have had no issues with your personality

Well, you're the first one here then.

I spend non-revenue hours at the airport every
day, trying to help out aviation and trying to make
it a little bit better.

I wonder how many people here can make the
same claim?

[akoch]

There was a period a few years back when it made sense to get them from Eastern Europe directly. I recall it was something like under 25k for good ones including a spare engine. It was before I caught the aviation bug unfortunately.

[Colonel Sanders]

a few years back when it made sense to get them from Eastern Europe directly

A friend of mine does that. Goes over to Europe,
fills containers up with parts, ships them back here,
and puts together L39's, Sukhoi jets and MiGs at his
farm, and flies them out of a rolling grass strip that
most people here wouldn't land a 172 on! I guess
afterburners help with the short grass strip takeoffs.

He says all the good, cheap stuff is gone.

[akoch]

I spend non-revenue hours at the airport every
day, trying to help out aviation and trying to make
it a little bit better.

I wonder how many people here can make the
same claim?

Well, I spend a few hours at the airport every day either trying to learn to fly or paying the instructor to teach me to fly. Either way it does not help the aviation much

Hats off to you. I honestly appreciate your posts on the forum, and personally I picked up a lot from them. Not all are transferable to my level, airplane etc, but still useful. It is probably the 70,000-hour supermegajet pilot guys who don't like you.

[Colonel Sanders]

PS Here's what Larry in Sante Fe charges:

http://www.jetwarbird.com/prices.html

Flight Training Rates Aircraft Per Hour
L-29 or Fouga ...........$1,850
L-39 .........................$2,250
T-33 .........................$2,750
Mig 15 ......................$2,750

[Shiny Side Up]

So far I have had no issues with your personality

Well, you're the first one here then.

That's just because he hasn't been around long enough, don't worry Colonel, you'll get in a kaffuffel with him. Besides, you have a reputation to live up to.

I spend non-revenue hours at the airport every
day, trying to help out aviation and trying to make
it a little bit better.

I wonder how many people here can make the
same claim?

Well fortunately for general aviation, probably a lot more than you think, though not nearly enough for what it really needs to flourish in this country. There are some aviation saints out there that a lot of people take for granted. No good aviation deed goes unpunished after all.

[Colonel Sanders]

Here's an interesting statistic:

I would wager that half the small airports
in Canada will close within the next 20 years.

My estimate may be conservative. It might be
three quarters, not half.

If that doesn't scare the crap out of you with
respect to General Aviation, I don't know what
would.

[Shiny Side Up]

The big problem is that many people won't care or try to do something about it until after the fact. General aviation is under siege in this country, and one of the stupid things is that some of the people hurting it are pilots themselves. Which seems absurd until you hear a group of guys argue for the closing of their own runway. That their own club revolves around. You read that right. Selfishness, stupidity and carelessness with a healthy dose of apathy. Lots of just plain non participation.