Forward Slips

[justplanecrazy]

By attitude, I mean the appropriate pitch attitude to maintain sufficient airspeed so you do not stall..

As for the people sideslipping a 2-33 into YCD, well, I started doing that in 75 and back then we could do what was necessary to get it down.. I guess they trained better pilots back then...

To know what attitude you can hold and not stall you first have to know what attitude produces what airspeed

[Cat Driver]

So what is your point???????

[justplanecrazy]

My point Cat???

Just trying to clear up the fact that you should be looking at your airspeed until you know that specific plane.

I can jump in a Champ and point the thing straight down in a slip and it won't gain much speed. If I do the same thing in a Twin Otter with no flaps (I haven't had the privelege but I imagine if I asked someone I'm right on this one.) I'd end up ripping the wings off.

There is no such thing as an "Attitude" that can be taught to a student. How do you explain to a student how to do a slip??? Or cruise??? You know the whole 3 finger cruise is only a ballpark. It depends on the seat height, the students height, the dash height, cruise speed etc. Sometimes its no fingers sometimes its a hand and three. So how do you teach a student to tell where the horizon should be lined up for them? Well you get them to hold the altitude constant and then take note as to where the horizon is to produce that result.

Now how about those illusions where approaching an upsloping horizon our airspeed suddenly bleeds and our altitude increases. Cover up these gauges and plug your ears and even seasoned pilots will find themselves slightly climbing.

In a slip it is even more difficult to determine your angles. Often you are using a slip to provide a steep descent among terrain. There is very little reference clues to tell you of your attitude.

Who gives a shit what the airspeed reads when you are slipping to lose height on a landing approach...why would anyone be looking at the airspeed at that point????

The best way to do it is to maintain your "ATTITUDE" just like you would in the event that you had an airspeed indicator failure. As Cat says, at that time in a light airplane who's looking at the airspeed. Know your airplane and fly the correct attitude and you won't get into trouble.

So to completely contradict you and Twotter a student needs to know their airspeed. You can't be sure of your Attitude unless you know your Airspeed. They go hand in hand. Reference clues will always change but Airspeed will remain the same. The less experience you have in that plane, in that area and especially in the air, the more important it is to know what airspeed your attitude is producing. To teach a student simply by attitude will certainly cause a dangerous situation. It is important to tell him/her the faulty airspeed readings in a slip and then how to use those faulty readings to ensure that they are not approaching a stall or that they won't be going 160kts as they start their flare.

When you are experienced as I'm sure you two are, you start to forget how important this dial was way back when.

So to recap and correct an error that Twatter pointed out on one of my earlier posts. Your airspeed in a slip will increase or decrease depending on where the static port is and which side you are slipping to. First the pitot tube, regardless of the slip will have an angled flow coming into it. This alone would decrease your IAS. Now the static port will either counter this effect or increase it. If the port is on the side you're slipping to, it will have airflow into it. This will cause a higher than normal pressure in the static port and decrease your airspeed even more. This will, lower your airspeed significantly. Slipping away from the static port will have a minimal effect but will cause a slightly lower pressure in the static port than normal. This will counter the decreased pitot pressure and equalize or maybe even increase your airspeed.

So for those of you wondering how to teach what airspeed to use, get them to monitor their airspeed before they enter the slip. As soon as they enter it, make reference to what it reads. This reading is what the plane will now read for the previous Airspeed. Confusing but just take this example. I'm slowing for an approach. As I reach 70kts, I enter a forward slip. I immediately check my airspeed and notice that its now reading 60kts. So a 60kt reading tells me that I'm going 70kts. I might normally be concerned at how close my IAS is to the stall speed but I know that that IAS is actually 10kts too low. I can continue my aproach checking to make sure my attitude is holding the 60kts and I know that when I straighten out and flare, I will be flaring at 70kts with enough safety factor but not too much speed to be able to land in time.

[Cat Driver]

Justplanecrazy....

You obviously mean well and in a way most of what you post is sort of correct.

However I think you are making things to complex for a relatively simple thing like attitudes and movements and the side slip thing is just another attitude, no more complex to understand than any other.

As I have previously mentioned most pilots are airspeed chasers and can not maintain a constant attitude......

I will occasionaly glance at the airspeed when slipping but only briefly to confirm its reading, I rely on the visual clues outside the airplane and the sound and feel remains the same if I wish to hold the slipping attitude..

By the way a Twin Otter has lots of rudder effectiveness for slipping...but they also have a very good rate ofdecent with the power just above bata. Actually its easier to fly than a champ.

To bad we couldnt fly for an hour or so together and do some one minute alternating left and right hand circuits never going above two hundred feet just to sort of get the cob webs out of our flying skills.

That is the best method that I know of for teaching pilots to look outside and fly attitudes without staring at the instrument panel to confirm what you aready can see outside.


Anyhow some day you may change your methods of training and make things far more simple for your self...

The easiest person to teach the basics to is someone who has never flown before, I find the hardest ones to teach advanced flying skills to are instructors.....

And I believe the problem comes from the poor instruction they received from their instructors that did not understand how to teach the basics....

Just my own findings from what I have experienced when trying to upgrade the skills of those who come to me for training.

So my suggestion is keep things as simple as possible and for Gods sake don't teach them to chase the airspeed.

.

[4green]

i think i learned the most about driving planes in a glider with the instruments covered and no yaw string. eyeball the altitude, listen for the airspeed and turn coordination.




juice boxes in the spoilers for good measure

[Cat Driver]

4 Green :

Exactly.

[justplanecrazy]

Hey .,

I think we're both arguing the same thing here and just interperting each other wrong.

Justplanecrazy....

I will occasionaly glance at the airspeed when slipping but only briefly to confirm its reading, I rely on the visual clues outside the airplane and the sound and feel remains the same if I wish to hold the slipping attitude..

This was the whole point that I was trying to relate. You need to glance at your airspeed once in a while to confirm your Attitude. I never meant that I don't teach a proper attitude or tell the student to stare at your airspeed, simply use it as a confirmation. A quick check once in a while is a good assurance you're doing things right.

To try and teach a student how to do it right with no way of confirming that he's right without you, is pretty hard unless you teach the airspeed relation. The more you know the plane and flight in general the less you need to glance at your airspeed. But when you're a student pilot, solo, low to the ground, and not used to mountainous terrain, your attitude can get screwed up in a big hurry. Simply checking your airspeed now and again will ensure that you're not bleeding it off and holding the correct attitude.

I do agree with you in that Attitude is everything. Don't change your attitude as you stare at your airspeed but hold your airspeed as you stare at your attitude.

I think the only idea that I'm trying to introduce is that if you're ever unsure about your attitude, check your airspeed.

[homer]

Haahhahaha .. you guys both make great points and I agree with justplanecrazy,without the airspeed indicator for reference how will they know the attitude is right in the first place ....but thought I would put in a post..you sound like an old married couple..hahaha..

[MUSICMAAN]

I've done a full slip in a cub on floats without problem, but not with full flap, not saying it can't be done. But it is something to keep in mind, in some planes, (Cessna's for instance), a full slip with full flap can and in most cases will disrupt the air flow over the tail and cause a buffet, and maybe a tail stall. Not to say that this happened to the fella in the cub but it can happen. I don't think floats have much to do with it at all other than adding more of a wall to the airflow.

[justplanecrazy]

Haahhahaha .. you guys both make great points and I agree with justplanecrazy,without the airspeed indicator for reference how will they know the attitude is right in the first place ....but thought I would put in a post..you sound like an old married couple..hahaha..

hahaha... Hey its legal now and Cat's not giving me any either so there's a good chance we could be married.

I've read about the Cessna caution for full flap slips but they don't talk about the tail stall. Just wondering where you got that info from about the tail stall. That's what I thought their reasoning was but then a Flight Instructor talked to some high up Cessna Personell and they said that there was some unexplained funny noise and there isn't any real reason for not doing them. Sounds like he had no clue what he was talking about.