Article: Sunwing wants to avoid Air Canada's errors

[Gilles Hudicourt]

This article was published in Montreal's La Presse on Sept 15, 2012. It is signed Marie Tison: mtison @ lapresse.ca

http://affaires.lapresse.ca/economie/tr ... canada.php

I thought it important that I did a rough translation for the benefit of those who do not read French. It's a jewel.


Sunwing wants to avoid Air Canada's errors

While it is beginning a first round of union negotiations, Sunwing wants to avoid having a costly structure, like Air Canada's.
«If we look at Air Canada's problems, we see that they are in large part caused by labour problems» declared the Sunwing's Colin Hunter, during an interview he gave to La Presse Affaires yesterday, while visiting Montreal. «The salary expectations of the crews is part of the problem.»
Early this year, the Association that represented Sunwing's pilots joined the Canadian Auto Workers Unions (CAW). In march of this year, Sunwing's 700 flight attendants chose to join the Canadian Union of Public Employees (CUPE). They just began negotiating the first collective agreement.
«It's new for us» commented Sunwing's Executive Director in Quebec, Sam Char. «Both parties are showing goodwill. We will listen to what they have to say, they will listen to what we have to say and we should arrive at a good agreement.»
However Mr Hunter stated that it was out of the question to agree to unreasonable demands.
«We must learn from others' mistakes, not only in our own industry, but also in the public sector. If we submit to demands just to buy the peace, the company will end up paying in the long run, because she will no longer be able to compete.»
En emphasized that it was out of the question to pay employees for one year when they only work three months out of the year.
Winter is high season for Sunwing. In the summer, the tour operator (sic) has surplus crews.
Over the years, Sunwing used a Federal exchange program to resolve this problem. During the high season, it uses additional aircraft belonging to the British (sic) multinational TUI, which owns 49% of of the Canadian tour operator (sic). These aircraft are under-used in winter because that is the low season in Europe. Sunwing also calls upon foreign pilots, mostly Europeans, to complement its 150 Canadian pilots.
The pilots at Air Canada and Air Transat condemn this practice, accusing Sunwing of unfair competition. They claim that even if Sunwing claims to adhere to a reciprocal program, very few Canadian pilots go work overseas during the Canadian low season.
M Hunter claims, on the contrary, that to this date, Sunwing had always sent more Canadian pilots overseas than it had imported foreign pilots into Canada.
«We could send even more pilots, but many prefer staying in Canada, take the summer off and play golf» he stated.
A few months ago, Sunwing management was planning on increasing capacity to 30% during the winter season. Mr Hunter indicated yesterday that the increase was going to be around 10% instead. This increase is subject to change according to the reservations.
Thursdays, Transat indicated that it would decrease its capacity by 7% this winter.
The leisure travel market could change in the coming years, with Air Canada's decision to start a low cost airline.
Mr Hunter stated et wasn't going to worry about it as of now. No-one knows as yet when this new carrier will begin operations, nor what destinations will be served.
«A company like Air Canada take a lot of time to react» Mr Hunter stated. «It's like an elephant giving birth.»
Sunwing will take appropriate measures when the new carrier will begin operations.
«We'll have to react to remain competitive» said Hunter, «if we don't adjust, we are condemned to a slow death.»

[FICU]

Sounds like the pilots and F/As will be the ones responsible for keeping Sunwing low cost. Good luck with contract negotiations and please fight for what you are worth and do not accept Canjet type wages!

[RichAir]

That's odd...I though golf courses were awesome in UK.

[Donald]

On the bright side, I'm sure striking is not an option for the crews.

Lisa Raitt probably enjoys her cheap holidays too!

[buzzjob]

Sounds like the pilots and F/As will be the ones responsible for keeping Sunwing low cost. Good luck with contract negotiations and please fight for what you are worth and do not accept Canjet type wages!

and what exactly are CanJet type wages?...not far off of Sunwing type wages IMO

[FICU]

http://..com/?page_id=304

[Gilles Hudicourt]

http://..com/?page_id=304

I wonder why Canadianpilotpay.com does not list the wages of Sunwing pilots ?

[ea306]

Who is this guy who writes this stuff anyway?
Lots of mis quotes and inaccuracies for sure.

Yep... It's a Jewel Gilles.

[chopsticks]

it should be an interesting year for Sunwing. Not only because of the contract negotiations, but also because Sunwing just hired 20 Canadian contract pilots completely separate from the union. It will be interesting to see how well both sides work together to come up with a reasonable contract benefiting everybody, and what Sunwing's plans are with respect to foreign pilots and Canadian contract pilots into the future.

[BE20 Driver]

Sunwing wants to avoid Air Canada's errors...

then don't hire guys to do the same job with lesser terms and conditions.

I'm just sayin'

[OPEC6-Heavy]

Gilles,
Where is the article titled "Sunwing wants to avoid Transat's errors", I'm sure you'll pull up that Jewel soon enough. Anyways, not to worry about Sunwing pilot salaries. Industry standard across the board, trust me. We never excepted a wage freeze (TS) nor do we go to SIM on unpaid days off (Air Canada)... I think if you knew the facts you would realize that Sunwing pilots have set the bar on a few things and will continue to do so. There's know doubt we need to improve on things, but I think all of us do.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Gilles,
Where is the article titled "Sunwing wants to avoid Transat's errors", I'm sure you'll pull up that Jewel soon enough. Anyways, not to worry about Sunwing pilot salaries. Industry standard across the board, trust me. We never excepted a wage freeze (TS) nor do we go to SIM on unpaid days off (Air Canada)... I think if you knew the facts you would realize that Sunwing pilots have set the bar on a few things and will continue to do so. There's know doubt we need to improve on things, but I think all of us do.

You mean when I wrote this?

I wonder why ..com does not list the wages of Sunwing pilots ?

I was just toying with the fact that since most Sunwing pilots are not Canadian, it's normal for a website called . not to list Sunwing wages. But that was just meant to be a joke. Sunwing salaries have nothing to do with my message. You'd be surprised how many emails and messages I get. I know a lot of stuff, much more than you imagine. However I do not post things that are not related to my one and only message:
no foreign pilots.
I have friends at Sunwing, many of my friends have buddies at Sunwing, some of my colleagues have relatives working at Sunwing. I do not mean Sunwing any harm, nor do I consider it an enemy. I never publicly criticized Royal, Canada 3000, Skyservice, Jetsgo, or any of the others. We pulled out of Hawaii and Maui years ago because the competition was waging a price war on that market and we were losing money there. We pulled out of Las Vegas and so many other markets when the numbers weren't there. But it was all fair competition. But there is no way I am going to lose my job like the Canadian sailors did, when their Canadian ships were re-registered in Panama and they were replaced with cheaper Filipinos crew members. Those that tried to fight the trend were labelled communists back then.

I just want that foreign pilot B/S to stop. The money Sunwing "saves" by using Foreign pilots, they save it at the expense of taxpayers and at the expense of tax-paying Canadians like those of my 57 colleagues who are about to lose their jobs and that your company won't hire. I mention my colleagues because they have names and faces to me, but there are many others in Canada who want and need those jobs that Sunwing saves for Germans, Brits, Czech and whatever other nationality Sunwing has allegiance to.

Those who fly Sunwing to save $50, I compare to those who hire contractors that they pay cash to avoid paying taxes. It saves them a few bucks and the job gets done, but at who's expense ?

[OPEC6-Heavy]

Gilles,
your argument is completely one sided, for obvious reasons. Your not understanding that when someone purchases a ticket on Transat they will be flying on an aircraft from a Foreign country (TUI or XL France) with Foreign crews !!! It's called Canjet... I get it, it's not the same scale as SWG but it's the principle right!! Again you need to STOP thinking that Foreign crews is what makes us profitable (no doubt the flexibility helps, but this is only a small piece of the puzzle), without getting into details, profits come from much bigger costs than a bunch of pilots and Airplanes. When you attack Sunwing you attack my lively hood and that of your so called friends their too, stick to your original fight which is 1:1 ratio's on Foreign crews vs Canadian. You have all of our support on that, but telling people not to fly Sunwing and pay an extra $30-$50 on Transat because you think you play fair (Canjet remember) then you have crossed a line. Anyways keep up the fight and stay on message.

[Max_Diff]

At least with CanJet passengers can be guranteed that the Captain on board every single flight is a Canadian pilot, who has met canadian licensing standads. Can Sunwing say the same?

[OPEC6-Heavy]

They've met Canadian or European standards... Whats your point? Are you saying that Canada has higher standards than Europe? Depends who you ask.

[RogerCheckCopy]

Gilles:
To suggest that the use of foreign pilots is the reason Sunwing is profitable is ridiculous. To the best of my knowledge,Sunwing does not "hire" any pilots. They obtain work permits that allow them to fly C- registered a/c but remain on their respective full-time employers payroll such as TUI. TUI pilot are paid a lot more that their Canadian counter parts and I am guessing Sunwing gets billed for this, so I doubt the savings are as significant as you think. Therein lies part of the problem in the battle you are fighting.... the fact that Sunwing does not actually hire any of the forein pilots. Regardless, I agree there must be a 1 to 1 ratio and hope you keep up your fight for that. Unfortunatly, what is going on is part of Globalization which is a concept I am against, but hard to stop as most western countries Governments do not want to be seen as opposing it. In the past trade was resticted to goods now it includes labour whether one likes it or not.

[Max_Diff]

They've met Canadian or European standards... Whats your point? Are you saying that Canada has higher standards than Europe? Depends who you ask.

I was refering more to the Eastern Block...you know, the guys (Captains and FO's) that failed their Canadian PPC, SWG sent them home, then brought them back a week later on a wet leased aircraft, which allowed for them to not to have to meet our standards, yet still fly in our airspace. A lot of passengers have no clue this is happening. That's the point I was trying to make.

[Max_Diff]

Gilles:
To suggest that the use of foreign pilots is the reason Sunwing is profitable is ridiculous. To the best of my knowledge,Sunwing does not "hire" any pilots. They obtain work permits that allow them to fly C- registered a/c but remain on their respective full-time employers payroll such as TUI. TUI pilot are paid a lot more that their Canadian counter parts and I am guessing Sunwing gets billed for this, so I doubt the savings are as significant as you think. Therein lies part of the problem in the battle you are fighting.... the fact that Sunwing does not actually hire any of the forein pilots. Regardless, I agree there must be a 1 to 1 ratio and hope you keep up your fight for that. Unfortunatly, what is going on is part of Globalization which is a concept I am against, but hard to stop as most western countries Governments do not want to be seen as opposing it. In the past trade was resticted to goods now it includes labour whether one likes it or not.

I don't know for a fact, but I would find it hard to believe that Sunwing is paying 100% of the TUI pilots salaries for the period they are over here. I wouldn't say Sunwing is profitable soley because they use foreign pilots, but Sunwing sure wouldn't be what it is today if it wasn't for them.

[av8tor_assrope]

Gilles you're really starting to get a bit annoying now. I'm all for 1:1 and more jobs for Canadians but blaming all your AT financial troubles on Sunwing is bs. Whats next, Air Canada.....this LCC that isnt even public yet? Capitalism. Sometimes things arent fair. AT hasn't been making money for a while now and of course it's Sunwings fault.....right. I bet if AT was kicking Sunwings ass we wouldn't even know who Gilles H is?

End rant

[Gilles Hudicourt]

stick to your original fight which is 1:1 ratio's on Foreign crews vs Canadian. You have all of our support on that, but telling people not to fly Sunwing and pay an extra $30-$50 on Transat because you think you play fair (Canjet remember) then you have crossed a line. Anyways keep up the fight and stay on message.

First of all, I have never told anyone not to fly Sunwing. Transat AT itself sells Sunwing packages on its on-line travel Web-site http://www.exitnow.ca. Go have a look.

You agree with 1:1 ratio you claim ? That is only possible when you hire more Canadians than you hire foreigners, which is not the case. As I write these words, there are 10 Sunwing registered 737s at TC. Your CEO claims you will operate a fleet of 29 aircraft this winter. Three time your present size. How is 1:1 even possible ?

Yes I am for 1:1 and would agree to it. But here is how it works in theory. You need 100 pilots in the summer and 200 in winter. So you hire 150 Canadians. In the winter, you hire and extra 50 foreigners who spend 6 months in Canada and in the summer they go home, along with the 50 extra Canadians, so you are left with the 100 you need and the 50 extra are paid by the Europeans in the summer.

You could also have 150 pilots and bring 150 foreigners but then all 150 Canadian pilots would need to go. In no case can you ever, under reciprocity, have more foreigners than you have Canadian. Yet there is a direct relation between the number of crews and the number of aircraft. Can you go from 10 aircraft to 29 and rely on reciprocity with foreign pilots to crew the extra aircraft ?

I do not think so and that is what I am fighting.

For those who keep insinuating I close my eyes on Canjet, I WILL REPEAT IN CAPITAL LETTERS. ALTHOUGH I AGREE WITH RECIPROCITY IN PRINCIPLE IF THE 1:1 RATIO IS RESPECTED, CANJET USES THE LMO METHOD THAT I OPPOSE 100 PER CENT. I DO NOT THINK THAT A SINGLE FOREIGN PILOT SHOULD BE LET INTO CANADA ON THE BASIS THAT AN EXPERIENCED AND QUALIFIED CANADIAN DID NOT HAVE A SIX WEEK COURSE CALLED A TYPE-RATING STAMPED ONTO HIS OR HER LICENCE. EVER.

Sunwing brought in 4 foreign pilots using the LMO last winter, the rest under reciprocity and wet-leases.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Gilles:
To suggest that the use of foreign pilots is the reason Sunwing is profitable is ridiculous

I do no recall suggesting that but I hope you are right. Then hire Canadians. Why is Sunwing so obsessed with hiring foreigners if it's not that big a difference? Hire Canadians and you all get to forget I ever existed. I'll crawl back under my rock and stay there.

[Gravol]

Gilles:
To suggest that the use of foreign pilots is the reason Sunwing is profitable is ridiculous

I do no recall suggesting that but I hope you are right. Then hire Canadians. Why is Sunwing so obsessed with hiring foreigners if it's not that big a difference? Hire Canadians and you all get to forget I ever existed. I'll crawl back under my rock and stay there.

I look forward to their response. I too find it odd. There is no difference yet there is a difference. I think it comes down to territoriality.

[Scuba_Steve]

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that it would be a good thing for Sunwing to cease operations and toss its compliment of 150 Canadian pilots out on the street. Nor is Sunwing the sole reason for Transat's issues. We had a meeting last week with management and they were the first to admit that.

Where does sunwing save when it comes to using TUI crews? Training? Pilot pay? favorable aircraft leasing arrangements? I have no idea nor do I really care....if Sunwing brough in 150 pilots this winter and sent 150 Canadians back to Europe we'd have nothing to discuss....the LMO method of bringing drivers in by claiming there are no qualified Canadians is a stretch at best.

I wonder how this would go down in Germany if 300 Canadians showed up to fly for a German carrier. While sending next to none back..

[ea306]

OK.

I am gonna put Colin Hunter's words into some context here. I don't have the exact numbers...but some one will.

In 2005 just prior to the AOC being issued to Sunwing a small number of Canadian Sunwing Pilots were sent to the UK to fly for XL UK. How many UK pilots came to Canada for Sunwing in 2005? ZERO.

In 2006 a lot more Canadian Pilots were sent to Britain to fly a Wet Lease for XL UK. How many Euro Pilots came to Canada to fly for Sunwing? ZIP, ZILTCH...NADDA.

In 2007 when I joined Sunwing there were three aircraft based in Europe WetLeased from Sunwing....a Newcastle Base, a Glasgow base, a Dublin Base...all flying for XL UK. All Canadians flying in Britain and Ireland. How many XL pilots came to Canada for the winter? NONE.

In 2008 the same happened. Canadians going to Europe...and NO EUROPEANS coming to Canada.

In 2009 we entered into an agreement with the now defunct Viking Airlines.....again a Manchester Base; London Gatwick, with Eurocypria a Warsaw base..(year before a Heraklion Crete base for Eurocypria)
It was only in 2009 that things changed and we started to see European Pilots coming to Sunwing to reciprocate.

So in this context I am of the understanding that Colin Hunter is correct in saying that we have sent more Canadians to Europe than we have had European Pilots come here.

From conversations I have had with senior management I get the sense that the company is working to remedy the current situation so as to balance out the numbers where there are generally equal numbers being sent in either direction overseas. Along with their wishes to accomplish this there has been talk of a strong possibility to hire more Canadian Pilots who will be going overseas.

Interestingly the Cypriots did not take well to Canadians flying wet lease for them...whereas the Viking and XL Airways UK were very amicable. The Brits being global thinkers as opposed to the small island next to Turkey.

As mentioned in other threads; the CAW has concerns where there are contract 2nd tier pilots who are excluded from the CAW pilot seniority list. That is a matter between the company and the union to sort out. Bottom line is that the company are making dramatic moves towards rectifying the situation and personally I think a number of us are prepared to give our management a chance to sort it out. If we see an increase in wetlease opportunities overseas long with the growth of our summer programs in North America; it is the sense of many that we will see an increase in hiring in the months ahead once our contract is ratified.

Again as I have said before...TIME WILL TELL.

Gillies, I am sorry that AT have been struggling. I am very glad that your company has seen a profit last quarter. I sincerely hope your company will see many more.

I also feel that the world is a changing place and businesses have to adapt to these changes Inorder to be successful.

Sunwing are a valuable contributor to the Canadian economy and to suggest otherwise is absolute nonsense. Seeing as Sunwing are moving in the right direction to sort things out, I think most of us here are happy to let them have a shot at it. Might not be perfect this year...but as long as it is an improvement from last year (which it already is)... Then perhaps the following year will be even better.

Meanwhile I hope you guys can get your own company to sort out your end of the equation so that there are more jobs for Canadians all the way around.

[Scuba_Steve]

ea306 - I wish you guys all the best, I hope you're able to get a good contract, and hire more Canadians. I'd happily come drive a 737 for you Guys and spend a few summers in Europe. More jobs for Canadians is always a good thing

Cheers