Random Drug and Alcohol Testing

[Doc]

Actually instructor_mike, it does not go both ways. It's a one way ticket DOWN the slippery slope. Once you give up ANY freedoms, you will NEVER get them back. I know the popular PC direction that most Canadians always take is "don't make waves" which is becoming the norm, however, ask anybody who lived in Germany in the late '30's or early '40's what happens when you give up your rights and freedoms? I don't use drugs, and I don't show up impaired in any way (other than the fact, I don't fly all that well, LOL) but it will be a cold day in bloody Hell before i'll piss in a jar, just to be politically correct!!!!
In this country, the police need "probable" cause.....but you dim wits are going to just LET some lab rats randomly test you? Are you people insane?

[Doc]

There is a bit of balance here too. What about the rights/freedom of the passengers expecting to get on an aircraft (where they are a paying customer) where they expect the crew to be clean? (I'm not limiting to pilots either).

Ah, passenger's rights. LOVE that argument! Really do. For every pilot that shows up to work with less than 12 hours since his last beer, I can show you about THIRTY of the DUMBFUKS, who killed everybody on board for more stupid reasons than you can even count!
You want to talk about "passenger's rights"? Really? Give your head a shake. I feel they have the RIGHT to expect that the moron in the left seat will NOT descend into the ground, forget to put his wheels down, will maintain a positive rate of climb on a missed approach.....the list will continues.....have enough gas to avoid landing in downtown Winnipeg???????
Thanks, but I'll take the drunk, stoned, hung over pilot, over the twat that can't be bothered to respect weather, can't read/adhere to an approach plate EVERY time!!!!
Learn to goose step, baby! It's the only way you're ever going to fit into the society you so dearly think we need!!
IF we could weed out stupidity, by pissing in a jar, I'd go with that one.

[Meatservo]

Godwin's Law strikes again. What's with that? It seems to happen even more here than Godwin predicted.

What I detect happening is that there is an emerging generation of people who expect all the "rights" they can get without feeling the need to practice all the social responsibilities that go along with being allowed to keep them. Sure there have always been drunks causing problems in society, but now you can add to that, people who crash planes while texting because they have the "right" to do that, and dope-heads expecting to have the "right" to have their illegal activity go undetected, people who have the "right" to move onto the next level even though they fail to make the grade academically, people who expect to have the "right" to have a sweet, high-paying, low effort job without having to do any of the less desireable jobs that traditionally lead up to that ideal, people who have the "right" to accept training in one place and not feel obligated to the entity who provided it, even though they used it to get a different job, people who have the "right" to blather away on their cellphones even though the airline has asked you not to, blah, blah, blah.

I personally don't detect a "slippery slope" when it comes to people exercising their "rights" at the expense of other people.

The fact is, you can't trust people anymore to pay attention instead of texting, so you have to make a rule. You can't trust pilots not to smoke dope, so you have to make a rule.

You will never be able to defend to me the "right" to smoke dope, when you have a job that requires you to be alert, conscientious, and motivated, because I believe that long term chronic dope-smoking damages these aspects of a person's mental makeup for longer than the effects of the drug are influencing him directly. I can spot probable dope-smokers a mile away.

[Beefitarian]

I don't mind, especially on company time. I will however fight for the right to keep other people's urine private.

Do I think it's ok to fly impaired? No but I know from what I've seen and heard from fellow employees in various positions where drug testing was in place that it's very ineffective.

[Sulako]

I don't care what you do in your spare time as long as you are fit to fly when you are assigned to do so. Drug testing doesn't work, it's invasive, and it treats us like criminals. I'm not a criminal and I refuse to be treated as one.

[The Mole]

I was on an exploration job, when the "random drug test" came around. They usually asked the flight crew to piss knowing full well most, 95% of the rig pigs would fail. We refused. Told them it was against our civil rights. Where we told we couldn't work on the job site and would be forced to leave. So we left for town. Funny things happens when you strand 40 people in the woods of northern alberta with night time temperatures dropping to -40. The drug test business went away real fast. The safety nazi had never made a life or death decision before.

[Doc]

Godwin's Law strikes again. What's with that? It seems to happen even more here than Godwin predicted.

What I detect happening is that there is an emerging generation of people who expect all the "rights" they can get without feeling the need to practice all the social responsibilities that go along with being allowed to keep them. Sure there have always been drunks causing problems in society, but now you can add to that, people who crash planes while texting because they have the "right" to do that, and dope-heads expecting to have the "right" to have their illegal activity go undetected, people who have the "right" to move onto the next level even though they fail to make the grade academically, people who expect to have the "right" to have a sweet, high-paying, low effort job without having to do any of the less desireable jobs that traditionally lead up to that ideal, people who have the "right" to accept training in one place and not feel obligated to the entity who provided it, even though they used it to get a different job, people who have the "right" to blather away on their cellphones even though the airline has asked you not to, blah, blah, blah.

I personally don't detect a "slippery slope" when it comes to people exercising their "rights" at the expense of other people.

The fact is, you can't trust people anymore to pay attention instead of texting, so you have to make a rule. You can't trust pilots not to smoke dope, so you have to make a rule.

You will never be able to defend to me the "right" to smoke dope, when you have a job that requires you to be alert, conscientious, and motivated, because I believe that long term chronic dope-smoking damages these aspects of a person's mental makeup for longer than the effects of the drug are influencing him directly. I can spot probable dope-smokers a mile away.

Your attitude on this (you're not alone...far from it. Read causethecaravancan's comments) scares the crap out of me. That you would even "think" that "pilots can't be trusted not to smoke dope...." leaves me wondering just how much of rights you're willing to piss away in your attempt to appear politically correct? Can the cops drop over to your crib tonight just to see what they can find? You may have nothing to hide, perhaps? But why should your ill guided "correctness" be crammed down my throat. I'm willing to respect (actually FIGHT for) your rights, why are you so willing to flush mine down the toilet?
If the authorities have "reason to believe" that a pilot is either under the influence or in someway impaired, then by all means be prepared to "prove" it. But, also be willing to have your ass sued off, should you be wrong. Lay a charge, then test the suspect, and live with the consequences. Is there a light coming on for you yet?

[Doc]

I was on an exploration job, when the "random drug test" came around. They usually asked the flight crew to piss knowing full well most, 95% of the rig pigs would fail. We refused. Told them it was against our civil rights. Where we told we couldn't work on the job site and would be forced to leave. So we left for town. Funny things happens when you strand 40 people in the woods of northern alberta with night time temperatures dropping to -40. The drug test business went away real fast. The safety nazi had never made a life or death decision before.

Classic!

[toelessjoe]

..... I can spot probable dope-smokers a mile away.

No offence, but unless your name is Fido and you were rewarded for doing a good job at the police academy with puppy chow I highly doubt it. There are plenty of intelligent, hard working professionals out there who have the odd recreational puff or three and manage their lives quite well. Doctors, lawyers, and yes even some Aviation Gurus.


- Toeless.

[Meatservo]

Doc, you're making sweeping assumptions about my attitude towards civil rights and liberties based on my opinions in this one matter. Just what "right" are you defending here? Your "right" to smoke drugs on your spare time? You don't have the right! It's illegal! Your "right" to not have to piss in a cup? What kind of a right is that? Sometimes I swear you'll get up on a soapbox about just about anything. Exactly which one of your constitutionally guaranteed rights are being stripped from you by being asked to pee in a cup? I don't know about you, but I don't give a shit what happens to my pee once it leaves my cock. Swallow it, spit it out, test it, I don't care.

Dope smokers are always defending their "right" to smoke dope. Nobody knows how long your brain stays fucked up after you've Bernie Macced a huge joint of chronic. I happen to think it's addictive and damages your mind. You don't have the right to do it if you are using your mind to protect people, which is what pilots do.

If it makes you feel better about me, I refuse to wear my orange vest at work. I won't fill out where my Father came from and when he emigrated, and who I've had a relationship with, and so on, and therefore I don't have a red pass. I happen to think those "profiling" questions infringe on my rights. There are all sorts of things worth fighting for, but pissing in a cup ain't one of them. It's the dope smokers who are crying oppression because being a dope smoker is more important to them than their jobs, and that's because they're addicted to the shit. Get real man, it's just pee. Stop hoarding it, it's not going to be worth anything to you when you retire.

I feel compelled to add, I routinely do things that I don't have a "right" to do. I sometimes drive faster than the posted limit, and sometimes I park without feeding the meter. I have sometimes pilfered a bag of chips from a load of groceries, and I have caught a fish or two without a license. I've blown duty time and lied about it, and I've once or twice landed a floatplane after dark. But I don't whine about the various ways the government has of trying to catch me. Like the saying goes, don't do the crime if you can't afford the time". Go ahead and smoke dope. But don't go on about your "rights". Other than a Victorian prudishness about the sanctity of your bodily fluids, what exactly are you objecting to?

If it was BLOOD they wanted, I would be right beside you raising the roof and bleating about my rights. But it's PEE for gods sake. I never asked you to fight for my rights. I've got bigger fish to fry than the fate of a couple of ounces of my urine. If you really want to get upset about your rights, get mad about that red pass you proudly wear clipped to your uniform, or that photograph they have of the veins on your retina on file, or the information about our family they have collected in order to profile you. That's a more respectable battle than your current battle for your urine.

[Instructor_Mike]

Meatservo I think you are kind of on the right track (though extreme with your points about what to do with said pee )

I'm on the fence about the peeing in the cup because it does depend on what it will detect like things that might be frowned upon but still legal or maybe even just if I took cold medicine 48 hours ago but it's still a little in my system.

Breathalyzers are a nice system since it's a little more specific on if you are intoxicated at this moment and not about what you did over the weekend.

[toelessjoe]

Not for nothin' Meatservo, but the current drug and alcohol testing that is currently being shoved down Doc's workplace does involve blood tests at the employer's discretion. IMHO that is worth getting worked up over.

- Toeless.

[Meatservo]

Actually I agree with you. I draw the line at blood. I guess that makes me a hypocrite, but I've never minded my urine being tested. I do object to blood (it took me a while to make that blood, and I'm busy using it. You may not have it.)

[Gessle64]

Alcohol and drugs are not the killers in this industry. Fatigue is. Let's have random tests for that.
Hell, let's have a war on fatigue. The fatigue "dealers" should do hard time for pushing their tiring product on aviation addicts.

[Beefitarian]

Actually I agree with you. I draw the line at blood. I guess that makes me a hypocrite, but I've never minded my urine being tested. I do object to blood (it took me a while to make that blood, and I'm busy using it. You may not have it.)

Well the urine test are not working and you signed this contract allowing substance testing so roll up your sleeve.

[Meatservo]

no.

[Beefitarian]

Executive, "We think you're using something to defeat the urine tests. You're obviously hiding something."

[Doc]

If it was BLOOD they wanted, I would be right beside you raising the roof and bleating about my rights. But it's PEE for gods sake. I never asked you to fight for my rights. I've got bigger fish to fry than the fate of a couple of ounces of my urine. If you really want to get upset about your rights, get mad about that red pass you proudly wear clipped to your uniform, or that photograph they have of the veins on your retina on file, or the information about our family they have collected in order to profile you. That's a more respectable battle than your current battle for your urine.

Problem is, my good meat......it includes blood work, if they so deem it. My sleeves are down and my jeans are zippered!
Stop being so keen to give up ANY of your rights.....even if YOU have nothing to hide. I have nothing to hide either, but FU*K them! "But it's PEE for gods sake....." Sure is. And it goes into the toilet, or behind a bush. End of story.
Let's nip this "Witch Hunt" in the bud before it even gets off the ground, shall we?

I'm getting really tired of the "sheep" this industry produces. (Not necessarily you, Meat) Jam Tarts.

[goingmach_1]

"professionalism"' or the lack of it is what the real killer is.

I know I am off the topic of the thread, but peeing in a cup or providing a blood sample is not directly going save someones life.

If someone chooses to participate in a lifestyle that is know impair ones jugement, who are we to question that? What the real problem is when this decision effects ones abiltity to perform.

As aviators, we have a responsibilty to the travelling public to ensure, to the best of our abilites, that we are ready to preform these duties. Don't know a real definition of professionalism, but at least be sober.

As far as the real killer goes, C.F.I.T. Comes to mind. Not being stoned or drunk. Continuing to press VFR into IMC, overloaded out of C of G, aircraft performance (high and hot), improper configuration, landing too fast on a shitty runway, on and on with this stuff is the killer. Professionalism, or the lack of it, in my opinion is doing the damage.

The stats don't lie.

[co-joe]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... y%20badger

Good definition. How do honey badgers correlate to dope smokers and piss tests again?



Just read definition number 4:

The Honey badger has been referred to as "the meanest animal in the world", and they are often considered to have no enemies, apart from man. They are a tenacious small carnivore that has a reputation for being, pound for pound, Africa's most fearless animal despite its small size. They are reputed to go for the scrotum when attacking large animals.

Now that's one mean mofo. Makes the wolverine look like a cute cuddle furball...

[Doc]

"professionalism"' or the lack of it is what the real killer is.

I know I am off the topic of the thread, but peeing in a cup or providing a blood sample is not directly going save someones life.

If someone chooses to participate in a lifestyle that is know impair ones jugement, who are we to question that? What the real problem is when this decision effects ones abiltity to perform.

As aviators, we have a responsibilty to the travelling public to ensure, to the best of our abilites, that we are ready to preform these duties. Don't know a real definition of professionalism, but at least be sober.

As far as the real killer goes, C.F.I.T. Comes to mind. Not being stoned or drunk. Continuing to press VFR into IMC, overloaded out of C of G, aircraft performance (high and hot), improper configuration, landing too fast on a shitty runway, on and on with this stuff is the killer. Professionalism, or the lack of it, in my opinion is doing the damage.

The stats don't lie.

"Professionalism" is a word that gets tossed around quite a lot here. Lets just leave it at that. Your last paragraph, I agree with 100%. The "druggy" is NOT the problem costing lives in this industry, it's stupidity! Give me a recreational dope smoker who knows when to do a a 180 degree turn, over some uniformed "professional" who pushes weather EVERY SINGLE TIME!!!!

[Colonel Sanders]

Too bad there's no blood test for stupid.

PS Are they going to do checks for steroids in the
blood samples, too? Do the-powers-that-be think
that athletic performance-enhancing drugs are a
major cause of aircraft accidents?

[Masters Off]

-CFIT
-Aircraft or pilot limitations exceeded
-VFR into IMC
-Stall/spins
contribute to a large amount of our accidents, yes. Apples to oranges, perhaps. But it cannot be denied that there's a lot of these and other accident/incident related issues that can be worked on/fixed.

As for alcohol and/or drugs;
If I had to; I'd rather someone come to work sober after a few smokes last night than a hangover. I don't like either, mixed with work. I'm sure we can all agree on that. Should they take my pee? Well, since I have nothing to hide, sure. If I have had too many, I'll step away from the job before someone asks me to. I think we all should, and most do. Just as much as I can get stopped at a RIDE program, I have no issue with giving pee, or blood if that's a more accurate test.

Afraid they'll find a trace of cold/flu medicine? Wouldn't it be simple to be up front (before they come back to you with the test results) with the fact that you took it days/weeks ago, with employer/coworkers/family verifiying your time off for being sick? I get the feeling we won't have many people with cough medicine-drug-induced problems...but you never know...

There was a case not long ago in Nunavut about a drunk captain or f/o? I forget how that turned out, exactly...

[Doc]

-CFIT
-Aircraft or pilot limitations exceeded
-VFR into IMC
-Stall/spins
contribute to a large amount of our accidents, yes. Apples to oranges, perhaps. But it cannot be denied that there's a lot of these and other accident/incident related issues that can be worked on/fixed.

As for alcohol and/or drugs;
If I had to; I'd rather someone come to work sober after a few smokes last night than a hangover. I don't like either, mixed with work. I'm sure we can all agree on that. Should they take my pee? Well, since I have nothing to hide, sure. If I have had too many, I'll step away from the job before someone asks me to. I think we all should, and most do. Just as much as I can get stopped at a RIDE program, I have no issue with giving pee, or blood if that's a more accurate test.

Afraid they'll find a trace of cold/flu medicine? Wouldn't it be simple to be up front (before they come back to you with the test results) with the fact that you took it days/weeks ago, with employer/coworkers/family verifiying your time off for being sick? I get the feeling we won't have many people with cough medicine-drug-induced problems...but you never know...

There was a case not long ago in Nunavut about a drunk captain or f/o? I forget how that turned out, exactly...

So, it's Okay if the cops come in and scour your apartment without "probable" cause? I can't remember if the crew in the Nunavut incident were involved in an accident? Methinks they were not.
For sure though, the clean, sober Navajo driver DID run out of gas over Winnipeg simply because he was STUPID?
They ain't getting MY piss. They ain't getting MY blood. They ain't getting MY toe nail clippings.......WITHOUT PROBABLE CAUSE!!
WTF is WRONG with you people??????

[Doc]

Too bad there's no blood test for stupid.

Half the twats posting on this very thread would be weeded out right up front.

Help me to understand the mad dash to give up your rights and freedoms by all these "sheep" that call themselves "professional"? We can't even stand together on an issue like this (which BTW, would make it go away) how could anybody expect pilots to arrange a circle jerk?