Temporary Seasonal pilots. The big lie at Sunwing

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Sunwing likes to use arguments about the seasonal nature of the winter jobs to justify the hiring of foreigners instead of Canadians. It costs a lot to hire and train pilots it will only use for 3 months etc.

It's all a big lie.

To those who think that Canjet and Sunwing can only provide seasonal work, I have news for you. If these companies imported foreign pilots under the existing CIC reciprocity program and played by the rules, this is how it would play out. Reciprocity, in theory, provides full time year-round employment for Canadians. Not part time work.

That leaves Sunwing no argument for hiring foreigners.

I'll just throw approximate numbers here, not to tell Sunwing how many pilots they need to hire, but to demonstrate how reciprocity SHOULD work.

Let's assume that last year Sunwing needed 350 pilots for their winter season since they had 150 Canadians and 200 foreigners. In the summer, they need much less, maybe 100. The difference is 250. For reciprocity to work, half of those extra pilots must be Canadian, that is 125. So they need to have 225 full time pilots (the minimum they need in the summer, plus half of the winter surge amount)

In the winter, they would import 125 foreign pilots to complement their 225, which would come out to 350 pilots. On May 15, they would send the 125 foreigners home and also send 125 of their Canadian pilots to Europe. They would be left with just the 100 pilots they need in Canada.

This can be done through a bidding system, by seniority, or an a rotating basis, whatever, but inside a LOA with the pilot's Union. If Sunwing were to abide by the regulations, in order to have 350 pilots in winter, they would need to hire 225 full time Canadian pilots instead of the 150 they had on payroll last year. That's 75 full time positions more than they had last year. For Canadian pilots.

This year they plan to grow to 29 aircraft, 5 more aircraft than they had last year. Thus they should need somewhere around 430 pilots. If their needs for summer pilots grew to 150 pilots, they would need as minimum full time pilot staff :
((430 - 150 ) / 2)) + 150 = 290 full time Canadian pilots.

But from what I heard from the grapevine, they stayed pretty much at the 150 full time pilots level of last year and are in the process of hiring 20 part time Canadians for a Sunwing-owned crewing company "to fly on secondment to Sunwing" at a B scale pay. The balance of the flying, they were in the hope of giving it away to Foreigners.

So you see that if Sunwing played by the rules, they would have far more full time Canadian pilots than they have today and no part timers. I am not fighting just to obtain some lousy low paying seasonal jobs for Canadians. With reciprocity, the idea is to have full time employment for Canadians, although employment that involves being away from home part of the year. But this inconvenience can be made attractive enough for the pilots who want it to bid on it. Part of the money the company saves by doing this should trickle down to the pilots.

Canjet, by the way, which to date has been doing the LMO thing, should also get on-board with reciprocity, which should provide some more Canadian with full time jobs.

Sunwing and Canjet's arguments for hiring seasonal foreigners is that the cost of training these seasonal pilots would be prohibitive and that they would lose many of their pilots when these were laid off in the summer, pilots that would always have to be replaced with new trainees.

If reciprocity were applied to the letter, no one would be laid off, no one would be seasonal, no more pilots would leave than with any another company and the cost of training would not be sky high for all those that would be trained would be retained year round for full time jobs.

The only reason their winter jobs are seasonal is because they do not hire the Canadian part of the equation. Nor do they send any pilots to Europe in the summer to fly European aircraft. It's all a one big lie.

[ZBBYLW]

Keep fighting the good fight Gilles! You never received a resume from me because I just commenced employment at an airline that competes against Canjet and Sunwing in the vacation market and am happy where I have found myself. That being said it really disturbs be that these airlines can skirt around labour law which creates an unfair competitive advantage for them against Westjet and Air Canada.

Not only do Sunwing and Canjet hire less pilots than they should but on top of it companies that do hire an appropriate amount of Canadians have to compete with the increase in training costs etc...

Good Luck in your Quest Gilles!

[pelmet]

On the other hand. What if you are working for Canjet and want to enjoy the summer off. Is there a mechanism in their contract that they don't have to go overseas all summer.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

On the other hand. What if you are working for Canjet and want to enjoy the summer off. Is there a mechanism in their contract that they don't have to go overseas all summer.

AFAIK, Canjet does not have a reciprocity agreement on file at CIC and has so far been doing the LMO method that we oppose 100 per cent. But if they did, you could always elect to be a part timer I guess. But otherwise, this has to be the subject of a LOA between the Airline and the Union. Sunwing's case is extreme because the go from 6 aircraft in the summer 24 aircraft in the winter, a 400% increase. So if they use the 125 foreign pilots using the reciprocity agreement and have 225 Canadian pilots on staff, either 125 Canadian pilots will have to spend 6 months in Europe, or the 225 will rotate in order to achieve an equivalent of 125 pilots for 6 months. They way this is achieved must be negotiated, not imposed.

In the case of Canjet, it's much easier. Stephen Rowe recently told a journalist that Canjet has 119 full time Canadian pilots. My information was that it imports only about 35 foreign first officers in the Winter. So obviously, it will be much easier for Canjet's 119 Canadian pilots to fill in the 35 six month slots in Europe (1:3.4 Foreign to Canadian ratio)than it will be for Sunwing's 225 Canadian pilots to fill in the 125 slots in Europe (1:1.8 Foreign to Canadian ratio). But that's due to the nature of Sunwing's business model.

[lbay]

//Personal attack removed by Sulako. Strike 1.

[Rogerdodger2]

//Personal attack removed by Sulako. Strike 1.

[snowcat]

You guys are so inmature !!!!
You souldn't treat a colleague like that, while Gilles is working hard to put this case for Human resources you are just insulting him.

In order to have a case, math has to be done, resumes have to be collected, etc., etc. I am pretty sure it is a lot of work .

Gilles is probably saving your jobs, think about it.

I am a Canadian NG Captain working overseas, when I came down for breakfast this morning I met my colleagues from Hungary (ex Malev Airlines), they said that 6 First officers from the difunt Malev signed a contract with a Canadian company to start in November to fly in Canada, they said this Canadian company didnt want Captains, just First Officers.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Two first time posters, back to back, attacking the messenger instead of the message. It's a very positive indication that the message is getting across.

But just to set the record straight: I don't hate Sunwing at all, in fact I love it. There are some fantastic people working there. I love Sunwing so much that I openly and publicly recommended to my 60+ furloughed Air Transat colleagues, many of which I love dearly, to apply for work at Sunwing and it is my most sincere wish that Sunwing hire every single one of them. They are all outstanding pilots and great people and it is my opinion that Sunwing would do itself a great disservice to overlook even a single one of them. Nothing would make me happier and nothing would shut me up better than to see all of my furloughed colleagues hapilly working full time jobs at Sunwing.

[tailgunner]

Keep up the fight Gilles.
Speaking as an AC pilot, I support you 100%. in fact every AC/WJ pilot should be 100%in support as well. Sunwing "bends" the rules, which allows them to compete and succeed in the market whereas our two companies hire and train Canadians for permanent positions, at large expense.
I will have to think long and hard about allowing a Sunwing pilot to fly under the recip. Jumpseat program now. With the part time, contract pilot being hired, i am not sure that they will qualify...it maybe safer for me to CYA /CMA by just denying all jumpseat requests by all Sunwing pilots.
Cheers.

[Biff]

Thanks for your hard work and dedication to this Gilles. From the cockpit conversations I've had, you are backed up 99% from the pilots from at least one of the other airlines in Canada.

I certainly appreciate that you are able to dedicate so much time and effort to this cause. Once again, thank-you!!

[RichAir]

@tailgunner
Thank you for your support,
however, Canadian pilots at sunwing shouldn't be denied a j/s. Most of them wish to work with more canadian pilots year long instead of foreigners.

[ea306]

I can tell you that every single Sunwing pilot also wants to see more Canadians flying for Sunwing. Would love to see your sixty friends over here Gilles. I also have some very good friends there at Air Transat. In fact if I was not flying for Sunwing, I would of been applying to work there too! Heck, maybe if one day AirTransat needs some summer help we can send some A330 & A310 qualified people over your way.... Why not! (Ok...a stretch... All in good humor)

I respect the issue and the only input I have put into this has been to provide a better understanding of what has been happening. There is no need to make things personal.

Your suggestion to punish the Sunwing Canadian Pilot over this issue does not make any sense unless it would be the Sunwing Pilots themselves that are causing the issue. I think everyone knows that is not the case. Sunwing pilots are not the cause of the problem.

If you are concerned about having a Bonafide Canadian Pilot on the reciprocal I would suggest the following of normal protocol will identify a Canadian Pilot. Just ask for his or her pilots license. The photo ID page identifies the holder of the license as a Citizen Of Canada.

ea306

[Scuba_Steve]

I can tell you that every single Sunwing pilot also wants to see more Canadians flying for Sunwing. Would love to see your sixty friends over here Gilles. I also have some very good friends there at Air Transat. In fact if I was not flying for Sunwing, I would of been applying to work there too! Heck, maybe if one day AirTransat needs some summer help we can send some A330 & A310 qualified people over your way.... Why not! (Ok...a stretch... All in good humor)

I respect the issue and the only input I have put into this has been to provide a better understanding of what has been happening. There is no need to make things personal.

Your suggestion to punish the Sunwing Canadian Pilot over this issue does not make any sense unless it would be the Sunwing Pilots themselves that are causing the issue. I think everyone knows that is not the case. Sunwing pilots are not the cause of the problem.

If you are concerned about having a Bonafide Canadian Pilot on the reciprocal I would suggest the following of normal protocol will identify a Canadian Pilot. Just ask for his or her pilots license. The photo ID page identifies the holder of the license as a Citizen Of Canada.

ea306

I'll second this I have friends at Sunwing and were I still in a position to offer them a jump seat I would without hesitation.....the Candian Pilot at Sunwing are not the issue, in fact I'd like to be one of them this winter

Cheers

[JayVee]

Thank you Gilles for your effort and dedication. Maybe the two monkeys flinging their own shit, and those like them, will find themselves in an unfair position sometime in their careers and wish they had someone as dedicated as you on their team.

[Rogerdodger2]

Denying Sunwing pilots the jumpseat solves nothing. The guys I know who work there are not the problem and want less foreign pilots working there. They're just working to support their families the same as everyone else.

[jjj]

My jump seat is open to every pilot on recip agreement.

Beware those who are the arbiters of what is right and what is wrong - they all too often confuse justice with opinion. Just sayin'.

JJJ - WestJet

[OPEC6-Heavy]

Gilles,

I think you and your colleagues at Transat need to be very careful at the direction your company is going with Canjet. Never mind Canadian vs foreign pilots (for 1 minute) what about your jobs. I know the fuss will always be Sunwing's winters pilots etc... But Expanded winter flying for CJ and a reduction in Aircraft and staff for Transat workers?? Parking airplanes while Canjet works. Prime example, TS pulling out of YQB for the winter, now it's all Canjet. Slippery slope my friend, be careful. Anyways thanks again for the hard work on 1:1 pilots, this will soon be reality.

Tailgunner

You embarrass your colleagues at AC when you make comments like that. Why would you deny a pilot Jumpseat based on management decisions? Imagine we punished AC pilots because of what your management does....

Sunwing "bends" the rules, which allows them to compete and succeed in the market whereas our two companies hire and train Canadians for permanent positions, at large expense.

This is such a sad argument, do you realize when revenues are over 1 Billion dollars per year that training cost differential of 100 extra pilots for full time work vs the cost of training part-time workers is a drop in the bucket. If your running a company that is strong and profitably this type of expense will not make or break you. The negative effect this amount of extra training would be is a slice of the profits. Lets just say if training costs are the reason you are not making money as a company then your running a pretty sad organization.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Gilles,

I think you and your colleagues at Transat need to be very careful at the direction your company is going with Canjet. Never mind Canadian vs foreign pilots (for 1 minute) what about your jobs. I know the fuss will always be Sunwing's winters pilots etc... But Expanded winter flying for CJ and a reduction in Aircraft and staff for Transat workers?? Parking airplanes while Canjet works. Prime example, TS pulling out of YQB for the winter, now it's all Canjet. Slippery slope my friend, be careful. Anyways thanks again for the hard work on 1:1 pilots, this will soon be reality.

Transat is under contract with CJ, contract which includes a fixed number of aircraft and an expiry date, both of which need to be respected. The extra aircraft in YQB do not come from Europe. There will just be less CJ aircraft elsewhere in Canada than last year, and more AT aircraft in that particular location (save of course for the three A-310s that our company are returning to their owner this month). Our pilot group signed a LOA with Transat AT limiting the amount of work they could outsource to a fixed percentage of total seats sold, so we are fully protected.

For the record, Canjet has 5 737-800s on the TC Civil aircraft register. Last winter, they leased another 8 aircraft for a total of 13 737s. Three came from XL Airways Germany and were in Canada, 3, 4 and 5 months, two came from Transavia France and were in Canada for about 5 months, and 3 came from TUI-owned companies, one of these from TUIfly Germany and the 2 others from Jetairfly. The 3 TUI-owned aircraft were in Canada 5 months.

This is such a sad argument, do you realize when revenues are over 1 Billion dollars per year that training cost differential of 100 extra pilots for full time work vs the cost of training part-time workers is a drop in the bucket. If your running a company that is strong and profitably this type of expense will not make or break you. The negative effect this amount of extra training would be is a slice of the profits. Lets just say if training costs are the reason you are not making money as a company then your running a pretty sad organization.

If training costs are not that big of a deal for a company with such high revenues ($1.3 Billion for Sunwing), it makes me wonder why on Earth your president and your CEO are fighting tooth and nail to hire foreign pilots that pay no taxes in Canada instead of hiring qualified Canadian pilots, including my 60 furloughed AT colleagues, half of which are being laid off this week are are about to apply for EI. I am also calling for Canjet to hire them instead of the foreigners they are attempting to hire.

[RogerCheckCopy]

Gilles:

Maybe it is just a technicality, and someone from Sunwing or CJ feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think they actually "hire" any of these pilots? Sunwing and CJ obtain work permits so they can fly C- registered a/c in Canada but I don't think they are "hired" in the true meaning of the word. I don't think they are given employee numbers, and believe they stay on remain on the payroll of their full time employer. Just wondering if this is one of those loop holes that help them get away with it. That is not to say I support giving away what could and should be done by Canadian pilots. Best of luck in achieving a fair, reciprocal process!

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Gilles:

Maybe it is just a technicality, and someone from Sunwing or CJ feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think they actually "hire" any of these pilots? Sunwing and CJ obtain work permits so they can fly C- registered a/c in Canada but I don't think they are "hired" in the true meaning of the word. I don't think they are given employee numbers, and believe they stay on remain on the payroll of their full time employer. Just wondering if this is one of those loop holes that help them get away with it. That is not to say I support giving away what could and should be done by Canadian pilots. Best of luck in achieving a fair, reciprocal process!

What you state here concurs with the info I have been provided. The foreign pilots continue to receive their pay from their European employers while flying for Sunwing in Canada.

Which brings up another subject:

Canadian Aviation Regulations:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... 3-3212.htm

203.03 (1) No person who is not the registered owner of an aircraft shall operate the aircraft as part of a leasing operation without an authorization issued pursuant to subsection (2) unless

(a) the lessor and the lessee each hold a Canadian operator certificate issued in respect of the aircraft type to be operated;

(d) the crew members of the aircraft are employed by the lessee;

I have two problems with this particular CAR:

Here are the foreign registered aircraft that Sunwing operated last winter:

G-FDZB 35131 2242 Boeing 737-8K5(WL) Y189 31-10-2011
G-FDZB Thomson Airways 24-04-2012 lsf Thomson Airways

G-FDZD 35132 2276 Boeing 737-8K5(WL) Y189 02-11-2011
G-FDZD Thomson Airways 01-05-2012 lsf Thomson Airways

G-FDZE 35137 2482 Boeing 737-8K5(WL) Y189 07-12-2011
G-FDZE Thomson Airways 28-03-2012 lsf Thomson Airways

G-FDZF 35138 2499 Boeing 737-8K5(WL) Y189 18-12-2011
G-FDZF Thomson Airways 15-04-2012 lsf Thomson Airways

Four UK registered, Thomson aircraft on Dry-Lease to Sunwing.

203.03 (1) (a) says

"each hold a Canadian operator certificate issued in respect of the aircraft type to be operated"

Lets take a look at Thomson's Canadian Operator Certificate, right off the Transport Canada Website:

http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/o ... &c_id=6015

CONTACT INFORMATION
File Number: 6015
Region: FOREIGN INSPECTION
Legal Name: THOMSON AIRWAYS LIMITED
Trade Name(s):
Address: WIGMORE HOUSE, WIGMORE PLACE
WIGMORE LANE, LUTON, (UNITED KINGDOM)
LU2 9TN
Phone: 011-44-01582-428-051 - 24HR EM 01144-01582-419569
Fax: 011-44-01582-428-028
Telex: 82239
Cellular:
Internet: Thomsonfly.com

DETAILS
Float Operator: NO
Dangerous Goods: YES
Air Operator Certificate Status: APPROVED
Preferred Language: ENGLISH
For a company that holds multiple certificates, all aircraft for that company will display on the OLS details screen.

Aircraft Type Max. Weight (lbs) Canadian Aviation Regulation (CAR) VFR OTT VFR NIGHT IFR Passenger Cargo
B757-ER 250000 701 No Yes Yes Yes Yes
B767-ER 310000 701 No Yes Yes Yes Yes

Oupppps!!! No 737-800 approval here is there ? How can that be ?

Then, all the pilots flying those aircraft have to meet 203.03 (1) (d) which states :

the crew members of the aircraft are employed by the lessee;

How can they conform to that regulation when the pilots flying those aircraft are not employed by Sunwing, I have no idea.........

[av8tor_assrope]

Tailgunner,

Easy there Capt Kirk. Denying "MYJumpseat" to a fellow Canadian pilot (who has no say in company policy btw) who is just trying to earn a living flying a jet like everyone else......that's just a real shame. I hope I never share a flight deck with someone like you.

[pacificwind]

Just curious...
Reading all these rants and commentaries, I wonder if the industry or if Transport Canada will permit the partial or full implementation of contract pilots like some Asian carriers are presently doing?
I have heard rumours that possibly AC's proposed low cost carrier will attempt to do this.

[tailgunner]

Av8tor-assrope,
Umm, it is my jumpseat the moment I board the A/C. You may not like it, but that is the way it is.
I see that losing the jumpseat seems to have riled up some apparent SW pilots. Good! That is what we need, a little emotion. I just don' t buy the argument that SW pilots really just want Canadians hired. If it were so, we would see letters of support from the SW pilot group for Gilles efforts. They would be challenging their company's hiring policies. Yet we hear nothing. Could it be that they realize that SW can grow and expand for the busy winter schedule at will with NO effort to be a year round player? Maybe they realize that if SW maintains this advantage they can also reap the rewards? SW seems to be hiring third party contactors now as well...yet still nothing from the SW pilots group.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Not all people can afford to go public in this forum without facing consequences, even behind a handle. I happen to know that most Sunwing pilots are against the hiring of Foreign pilots and I also know that Sunwing's pilot Union is in conflict with Sunwing management over that Crewing company Sunwing just created, probably to bust the union. When temporary foreign Workers are hired every year instead of permanent Canadian pilots, it prevents pilot advancement, especially that Sunwing, unlike Canjet, hires foreign Captains, which prevents the promotion of Canadian right seaters. Now that the newly formed Sunwing crewing company just hired 20 pilots who are outside the seniority list, it does not help the unionized Sunwing pilots one bit. I am a bit surprised that Sunwing management would allow such a conflict to brew within their ranks on top of the foreign pilot issue, but hey, they must know what they are doing right ? I'm just a dumb pilot. What do I know.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Not all people can afford to go public in this forum without facing consequences, even behind a handle. I happen to know that most Sunwing pilots are against the hiring of Foreign pilots and I also know that Sunwing's pilot Union is in conflict with Sunwing management over that Crewing company Sunwing just created, probably to bust the union. When temporary foreign Workers are hired every year instead of permanent Canadian pilots, it prevents pilot advancement, especially that Sunwing, unlike Canjet, hires foreign Captains, which prevents the promotion of Canadian right seaters. Now that the newly formed Sunwing crewing company just hired 20 pilots who are outside the seniority list, it does not help the unionized Sunwing pilots one bit. I am a bit surprised that Sunwing management would allow such a conflict to brew within their ranks on top of the foreign pilot issue, but hey, they must know what they are doing right ? I'm just a dumb pilot. What do I know.