IFR Clearance in VMC

[ahramin]

It isn't what the CADOR is about, it is how they tag/categorize it. If I go around, it would be marked under operational impact or something like that. When these aircraft are being put in the category of "CAR's Infraction" that is when you have to ask, why?

UPDATE The company reported that there was a misunderstanding by the crew concerning VFR departures and picking up an IFR clearance after takeoff. This airport is in controlled airspace and pilots have been briefed on the requirements about obtaining clearance before takeoff.

And in this one, http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/c ... pe=0&narr=

It was tagged as a "Alleged Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARs) infraction"

I see. That's interesting.

Perhaps it was IMC? That's the only thing I can think of that would generate a response like that. Or is there something strange about Churchill's airspace? Anyone have the CFS page for Churchill handy?

[lostaviator]

From the date and time of report. Can't help with the cfs bit right now.

METAR CYYQ 271900Z 04010G15KT 15SM FEW040 SCT220 09/05 A2956
RMK CU1CI0 SLP009=
SA 27/05/2007 18:00->
METAR CYYQ 271800Z 22015KT 15SM SCT220 22/08 A2956 RMK CI0
SLP012=
SA 27/05/2007 17:00->
METAR CYYQ 271700Z 22012G17KT 15SM SCT220 21/08 A2958 RMK
CI0 SLP017=

[Duncan Idaho]

It's an MF sfc to 3000

[AOW]

My read of it was that since the crew requested a VFR departure, FSS called for their clx, activating their flight plan, making them an IFR aircraft... The original question referred to a class E zone with no FSS (or at least no (R)AAS - ie YGQ), where this could not happen!

[kevenv]

My read of it was that since the crew requested a VFR departure, FSS called for their clx, activating their flight plan, making them an IFR aircraft... The original question referred to a class E zone with no FSS (or at least no (R)AAS - ie YGQ), where this could not happen!

From the Designated Airspace Handbook: (bold is mine)

Class E*
All high level controlled airspace above FL600 within the SCA, NCA and ACA. Also, low level airways, low level fixed RNAV routes, CAEs, Transition Areas or CZs established without an operating control tower may be classified Class E airspace.

A few references from the AIM:

7.9 IFR Departures from Uncontrolled Airports

Where a pilot-in-command intends to take off from an uncontrolled aerodrome, the pilot shall:

1. obtain an ATC clearance if in controlled airspace;

6.2.1 IFR Clearance with VFR Restrictions
6.2.2 VFR Release of an IFR Aircraft

CARS 602.121 (2) No pilot-in-command of an aircraft shall conduct an IFR flight within controlled airspace unless the aircraft is operated in accordance with an air traffic control clearance pursuant to section 602.31.

With all of the above in mind;

If you have filed an IFR flight plan, you are an IFR a/c as far as we are concerned. Nobody calls the ACC to turn you into an IFR a/c. Whether or not you have (or for that matter need) an IFR clx is a different issue. If you depart from controlled airspace you need approval to depart VFR. Controlled does not mean there has to be a tower or FSS on site, it can be through a RAAS. An exception is a place like CYQI, there is nothing onsite other than my frequency but it is class E. So long as it is class E airspace it is controlled. If as you say above, CYGQ is class E, you need approval to depart VFR.

If an a/c calls FSS and requests a VFR departure, FSS calls me to ask. They do not call me for a clx, or to "activate" the flight plan, they are seeking approval for the VFR departure. If I approve it, I specify a time, location or altitude for the a/c to expect an IFR clx. I have, in 20 years, only refused the request once and it was due to workload. The aircraft (an airline) ignored the refusal and departed anyway.

In an earlier response it was mentioned that you can depart on an IFR clx and fly IAW VFR. In this case I would issue a full clx and instruct the a/c to maintain VFR until an altitude, time or location. I have never had a request for this. In both cases the a/c must request it.

If the airport is in uncontrolled airspace you do not need my approval to depart VFR. What you do need is a clx from me to enter controlled airspace. So at places like CYCH, CDT5, CFH4, CYTN etc, while the a/c may call me on the phone for a clx, it isn't unusual for them to depart VFR and immediately call me for a clx. If I'm busy they wait (maintaining VFR). Otherwise they get their clx. In all of these cases you are still being provided alerting services, ie: if we don't hear from you within the specified period of time, we start looking for you (through your dispatch or airport operator etc). If you file from CYCL to CZBF you will not get a clx from me as the entire flight is within uncontrolled airspace. You are still IFR and you will still get alerting services. In this case the a/c calls me to activate the flight plan and has to file an arrival report.

One other type we see daily is the flight between CYHZ and the offshore oil rigs and return. The rigs are in uncontrolled airspace so the a/c never call before departing from them. Their dispatch calls us and lets us know they have departed (alerting service) but that's it. The must get a clx from me before entering controlled airspace south of CYHZ. They are still IFR a/c, they just don't have an IFR clx.

Hopefully I haven't muddied the waters too much with this explanation.

[AOW]

The reason I mentioned YGQ is because it is a bit of an oddity... It has a FISE RCO to London Radio, is a designated class E control zone, but has no RAAS service. On good VFR days, I will often depart VFR, remain below 12,500', and pick up my clx from Winipeg centre on the YSP PAL. Nobody has ever complained of this practice. I understand on these ocaisons that I may never get an IFR clx, so I will only do it if I am comfortable maintaining VFR until clear of controlled airspace, or at my destination if it is within controlled.

[x-wind]

Hi Kevenv, I am amending my post because I thinks it's better suited to address you directly. It's good to know you consider an airplane as subject to your control from the moment they file an IFR flight plan. That is where I think pilots will disagree. The regulation are fundamentally designed to require a IFR clearance to operate IMC in controlled airspace, nothing more.
Einstein said "make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler."

When in a control zone SOP's would seem to demand a different approach. Since a cleareance is required regardless of being IFR or VFR in an effort to relay intentions efficently I thinks it's essential to request a VFR departure if one has a IFR flight plan on file after the initial call up. This is because the the controller will assume your waiting for a IFR departure.

Here is another reiteration of what's being discussed.


I've, relatively recently, began requesting a "approval/clearance" VFR departure a when I have a IFR flight plan file filed when there is IFR traffic in my vicinity which will cause a delay and the weather is VMC, at non-control zone airports. I started requesting this because of local FSS advising me that I had to request approval.

Now, I would consider it an airmanship point- a prudent one, to advise ATC that I am proceeding with a VFR departure, with an IFR flight plan filed, so they can stop working me into there equasion for the time being. Any delay or ammendment to an IFR flight plan should be communicated expeditiously. However, this is something I should not need a clearance or approval for.

This is akin to the controllers I've been hearing recently advising me that I cannot cancel the IFR until I'm below 12,500 feet, while in controlled airspace. I certainly can, I just have to continue with a VFR clearance or CVFR rules.

I'd like to add that a mandatory frequency has nothing to do with IFR proceedures in this conversations context. MF are often associated with ground stations and class E airspace but, it is the class of airspace that is what matters not the designation of the zone being a MF.

[old_man]

When in a control zone SOP's would seem to demand a different approach. Since a cleareance is required regardless of being IFR or VFR in an effort to relay intentions efficently I thinks it's essential to request a VFR departure if one has a IFR flight plan on file after the initial call up.

In a class E control zone one needs a clearance to be IFR but one does not need one if they are VFR. AFAIK

[x-wind]

Correct my mistake