Keystone Air

[esp803]

I'd rather take 50 grit sandpaper to my private parts then get into one of their airplanes... So yes I'd take 2+ years on the ramp.

E

[Crusty]

Would anyone here take the direct entry Co-pilot job on the navajo if it was offered to you, specifically to all you 200 hr guys, instead of working the ramp for 2+ years at Sunwest or Wabusk Air for a cojo spot on the Navajo?

No.

They're not moving towards a "safety attitude". They stuck an extra guy in the 'Ho because the media after the last crash focused on the fact there was only one pilot on board.

And your direct entry co-pilot job comes with direct entry ramping for half the month anyway. So if you want to get treated like crap on a ramp I suggest you pick a company that's dangling a better carrot than right seat Navajo.

[just curious]

No, to the original poster.

[CLguy]

Gee WJ733 you seem to have a rebuttal for every comment and have stated you have friends that work there. Why don't you just ask them?

[cdnpilot77]

It's been less than a year since their LATEST accident, how can you know if they have actually cleaned up their act? Seems like you are just trying to justify yourself in applying there and not getting the answers you want.

As CL pointed out, you have a rebuttal to all the points of your friends who work there. Maybe they don't know any better or different or think that abuse of pilots is "just part of the job" or perhaps, they dont want to look like idiots to someone looking up to them. Chalk me up as a guy that would quit aviation and work in a Chinese sweat shop before I would work for them.

[esp803]

I heard that the maintenance at Keystone is pretty good as of now

Nothing to do with maintenance, more corporate culture and a history of shady operations. I know nothing about their maintenance, but even the best maintained bird in the world don't fly without fuel.

what, in your opinion singles out Keystone to be at a lower level than others that offer Navajo FO/ramp spots like sunwest and Wabusk

2000C1087 : The a/c appears to have impacted terrain with very little forward movement. The fuselage is intact and the occupants were able to exit the a/c on their own. The pilot was able to assist Emergency Services personnel by using a cell phone and providing directions based on sounds. The area where the a/c came to rest is completely enclosed by dense bush and trees and is not visible from a city street, about 300 meters to the north

2002C0623: KEE 208, a PA-31 Navajo with a pilot and six passengers, was arriving at Winnipeg International Airport after an IFR flight from Gunisao Lake, MB. The pilot reportedly was high on the ILS approach to Runway 13 and elected to overshoot. At some time during the missed approach, the pilot advised that he was having an engine problem and ATC provided him with vectors to land on Runway 25. The pilot shortly after, further advised ATC that the second engine had quit. Witnesses on the ground report hearing an engine backfiring as the Navajo passed overhead. The a/c descended into the northwest residential/industrial area of the city and hit the top of a city transit bus, knocked down a traffic light at the intersection of Logan and McPhillips Streets, struck a large delivery truck, then struck a smaller delivery van and impacted a paved street. The a/c came to rest on its left side on top of the left wing about 150 feet west of the intersection. The right wing and engine departed the a/c during the accident sequence. The 7 occupants were injured, with varying degrees of severity and all are in hospital. There were no injuries to anyone on the ground, although the two delivery vehicles struck on the ground were seriously damaged. The bus was only slightly damaged. Weather at the time of the occurrence was between 300 and 400 feet overcast. Four investigators from the TSB are on site. A Minister's Observer from System Safety has been assigned.

2012O0076: The Keystone Air Service Ltd. Piper PA-31-350 aircraft (C-GOSU, operating as flight KEE213) was on an IFR flight from Winnipeg (JARIA) (CYWG) to North Spirit Lake Airport (CKQ3). NAV CANADA staff at Winnipeg ACC advised that J.R.C.C. Trenton staff had reported picking up a 406MHz ELT signal from C-GOSU in the vicinity of North Spirit Lake. At 1620Z, J.R.C.C. Trenton staff confirmed that the aircraft had crashed on North Spirit Lake (accident location 52º30'08"N 092º59'56.1"W). A local rescue party was on the scene. Four fatalities were reported and one survivor was taken to hospital. Transport Canada has appointed a Minister's Observer.

These in top of a general "I'm invincible" attitude to me shows a shady operator to stay away from, I stand by my original thoughts, and the thoughts i expressed in the last Keystone thread which was removed.

E

[cdnpilot77]

Wow! So when did you acquire the crystal ball? The past (and they a brutal one to be polite) is ALL you have to go on. Company culture doesn't change overnight!

[esp803]

You are right, I am being unfair in using the companies past and assuming that they will not changed.... Well based on no accidents today, you can safely assume they will never have another accident.

If you were to take an typical day of flying at any company and use that to foresee the future then every company operating today should not have an accident in the future. If however you look at the history of a company and see that the same types of accidents have occurred time and time again, you can assume the trend will continue... But hey maybe my logic is heavily flawed here....

You asked for an opinion on a company, and from what I have read you have gotten response from some very experienced people in our field (I'm not including myself in that category). You have reject 100% of the feedback. Why bother asking if you already know the answer.

E

[flyinthebug]

I'm not sure why all the posts refer to the past

This is simply because the "past" hasnt changed at all. Same owner, same company culture. The new "FOs" on their PA31 are window dressing at best. Nothing has changed because nothing at the top of this company has changed. What else can we base our opinions on other than past performance? Im with the majority on this one. You are not getting the replies you wanted to justify your working there...so now you question us and our motives? My only motive is to keep young and inexperienced pilots FAR away from this type of company and its culture. Our 703 op ran 31 years accident free, flogging around in PA31s all day everyday. We didnt kill anyone or crash on a regular basis (or at all). Keystones past is simply a reflection of its future. Until ownership changes, nothing at Keystone will either.

Take the ramp job!!

Fly safe all.
FTB

[Doc]

I'd rather be dipped in honey, and tied naked over a colony of red ants.
I'd rather be caught in a leather bar wearing my latest assless chaps.
I'd rather wake up beside Camilla Parker Bowles.
You just HAVE to be, a) retarded. b) a complete moron. c) Faaking with us.
If you think the "corporate culture" at Keystone is going to change WITHOUT completely flushing the "toilet" of ALL the turds presently floating in it....you're a DREAMER!

You, you may say
I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one

[Rowdy]

looks like you caught quite a few sucker fish while trolling

'A shit leopard doesnt change its spots'

[flyinthebug]

The Corporate Culture term comes up quite a bit, could any of you elaborate on why the Culture isnt too good at Keystone?

When "senior management" not only supports but also encourages sacrificing fuel for a revenue seat, that creates a certain unsafe culture. Shit flows downhill.

*Edit for addition of link*
WJ733 you seem sincere. Read this 20 page thread regarding a recent Keystone accident... and it should educate you a bit on why so many of us have "anger issues" when it comes to this particular company. People died that shouldnt have.

viewtopic.php?f=118&t=78853

[cdnpilot77]

Shouldn't crash history be enough to prove the point? 2 fatal crashes in what 2 years with VERY preventable causes due to "company culture"! How can that in itself not be enough for you? Do you not have any self worth? How many other 703 ops have had that record and continue to operate?

[JMACK]

[Doc]

Either that, or he's denser than a stump!

[Donald]

Is the wait for the Metro at Perimeter getting too long for you?

[cdnpilot77]

Doc, I'm afraid denser than a stump is the culprit. WJ733, I suggest you read the mentioned accident threads and any other threads associated to those companies involved and you will see why your statements are so ridiculous. You are coming across as being foolishly ignorant and uninformed. Don't be lazy, take a couple of hour and do some reading. It's all been discussed before. If you have any reading comprehension whatsoever your answers will become clear very quickly!

[Rowdy]

If you're trying to convince yourself that keystone is a good place for you to work.. then by all means go for it and ignore ALL of the warnings from many of the seasoned and experienced members of this board who have been alongside, chatted with and watched them operate not only in the present, but the distant and more recent past.

It doesnt take much to see the big and clear picture of an operation. Who else has a RESTRAINING order against transport canada?!?! Why would an operator need one? How many times have they been audited in the past decade? Look at the trends in the CADORS.. look at the accident trends.. go out and see if you can look into their hangar. Ask some of your 'friends' what they think of the place.. Ask the other operators around.. you'll see it all bright and clear my friend.

[yukon bound]

Rowdy wrote "look at the trend in the cador's"....if I did I most likly never get on Perimiter,they have more cadors than any 5 companies combined,but then they are transports pet compay

[just curious]

Recently, First Air 737 Crashed and had fatalities up in Resolute Bay, Arctic Sunwest Twin Otter on final in Yellowknife water base and had fatalities, Air Tindi C208 crashed and had fatalities. Is there anyone bashing these guys for what happened in their airlines? Do you think their "corporate culture" is bad too? I have only seen mourning about these crashes. I'm not excusing Keystones pilots' action of any kind, but I don't see any negativity going on at other airlines who have had casualties in the past due to accidents that "didn't have to happen". I would hope that Keystone would have learned from their mistakes by now, otherwise TC would have shut them down permanently. Obviously they did something to prove to TC that has kept them afloat. I'm not sure why all of you take my original question with so much disgust. If you cant answer my question without saying "They crashed and killed people, that's enough to bash them" sort of comments, then I'm gonna arrest my case since I'm getting nowhere with this thread.

This is the crux of the matter. Without referring to the original company in question, the issue of organizational culture of the above named companies has evolved over the years. Their values, attitudes and beliefs are reinforced from the top down. They neither encourage nor reward risk-taking behaviour. ASW was purchased by Ledcor, Tindi by Discovery, and Bradley by Makovik. As they were bought a gradual transformation of the way they operate took place. Their salary has historically represented or bettered the norms of the roles their aircraft served. When the trio of accidents took place, their operations were refocused so as to reduce the likelihood of recurrence. Tindi tends to lose pilots only to upward progression, with pilots staying for several years, or forever. First Air had several pilots who had been there for decades. When they had a shakeup at HQ, I believe they came to understand that crew loyalty and retention are big drivers in profitability. ASW saw a niche for remote area operations, and undertook to operate DHC5's in the civilian market, after the OEM had ceased support. That took vision, and commitment.

Every company has things that could be changed in minor ways. Positive cultures do. The thing is that they should be willing to change. That had to come from the top.

The thing that I am seeing is that your particular subject company doesn't reflect that.

[Liquid Charlie]

Does not the 748 not a have a frangible switch in the wheel wells or is my ancient brain turning to mush

[Doc]

Does not the 748 not a have a frangible switch in the wheel wells or is my ancient brain turning to mush

Your brain is mush, but you are correct. The thing also has a ditching handle so it will become a boat.

[Liquid Charlie]

no arguments --

[Sidebar]

could any of you elaborate on why the Culture isnt too good at Keystone?

Two words: company president.

[single_swine_herder]

Rowdy wrote "look at the trend in the cador's"....if I did I most likly never get on Perimiter,they have more cadors than any 5 companies combined,but then they are transports pet compay

They also fly about 35,000 sectors a year into some pretty crummy places, so it's not at all unusual to have some items show up.