Walmart Greeter Wanted

[iflyforpie]

I thought the 'low pay' was the bond. Small aviation companies have had to deal with high employee turnover since day one. You build it into your business.

But then someone realized that if you required a bond, that pilots would still apply and happily sign it. What used to be an expense that was absorbed and written off by a limited liability company with millions of dollars in revenue now becomes the sole responsibility of an already underpaid pilot who just wants something better. You think training a pilot is expensive? Try replacing an FCU or an engine or a prop or a gear box. They don't have 'bonds' if they pack it in early, yet the company has to be able to come up with the cash to replace them.

Like I said before, bonds will disappear as soon as pilots refuse to sign them, with no changes in job positions or turnover rates.

[NWONT]

Doc, I just told you in detail why the bond was put in place but you keep going into your fantasy world of pilots always living up to their word of honor which at times, as I have explained does not exist. If the dollars for this training was coming out of your wallet instead some evil employer you would think different. You've been flogging this horse long enough. The work agreement means absolutely nothing if everyone lives up to his word and does what he has agreed to do. Simple as that.

[Doc]

You told me I was "slinging shit" at Bearskin. Plain and simple. Bearskin is NOT the company they are because of bonds. You know it, and I know it. Exactly what IS your point? If you feel you need a bond, then sign one. I don't. Enough said?
Bonds are pure bull shit. Just because you were dumb enough to sign one, you seem to feel everybody should. I'm calling bull shit! Perhaps you are not a man of your word? I am. So are many.

[NWONT]

Here we go again. I swear you're losing it. I worked for Bearskin on and off for over ten years. They never asked me to sign anything because we trusted each other and still do to this day. Everytime you get bored you hit this site and start some GD thread about something you feel like spouting off about. Then you start with the name calling when you see you have no credibility. IFLY thinks a failed FCU is the same as a pilot that takes a powder after he has given his word to provide a service in return for his employers investment in him. Why, hell, they'll just come up with the cash to pay for it. The bonds were brought in because pilots couldn't be trusted to live up to their word. Plain and simple. I was at Bearskin when the bonds were introduced and I thought they were a damned good idea. I thought that because the rest of us had to accept lower wages because all this money was going for training to people that had no intention of sticking around. This concept is so simple even you should be able to understand it. I was with Bearskin when the future didn't look so good but because of sever changes to how things were managed, including personel, they won some pretty prestigeous awards a short time later. I'm finished with this idiotic discussion. There's nothing more to say.

[Chaxterium]

Thinking of you, Voyageur guys.

Before you attack my company, maybe it would be a good idea to have a clue about what you're talking about. Whatever information you're basing that opinion on is dead wrong. It has been dead wrong for a long time.

I had a training bond but it was no money up front, just a written committment to stay for 2 years

Voyageur's training bond is no money up front as well; and it's only one year. And in that one year, you're home sitting on your ass for half of it. I never gave Voyageur a cent.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=79497&start=25

[xsbank]

So Caxterium, confirm you did not go to your bank and get a loan that you essentially signed over to Voyageur? Are you telling me that all you did was sign an agreement? If that is true then I apologize because they have obviously changed their procedures. If I am correct, STFU.

[Chaxterium]

I can confirm I did not get a loaned signed over to Voyageur. No money changed hands at any point. Do you think we go to the bank and take out a massive loan and walk the cash straight over to Voyageur's office?

[xsbank]

"You can either provide $15 000 or get a $15 000 loan from the bank, however THIS IS NOT PAID TO VOYAGEUR. This is kept in a jointly held GIC at the bank, in trust, and the bank is provided the contract. The bank plays the neutral third party and ensures that the contract is honoured. If the company were to go tits up, the company is not holding the money and is not part of their assets to creditors since the bank would be bound to follow the contract and award the money back to the pilot. If you get a loan, you pay the interest on the loan for the one year of the bond, but this gets paid back to you from the company as an expense minus the interest you collected from the GIC. If it is your money, you also collect the interest from the GIC.

You're not paying for anything, and the company never touches the money. It is held in trust, and is awarded based on a the contract both the company and the pilot sign.

I was skeptical at first because it's dealing with an actual amount of cash, but from the company's perspective it is the guarantee that you will honour the contract that you enter in with them. It is what it is, and if you don't like it, then simply stay away. But besides this they are a decent operator and company to work for. There are better companies out there, but there are far worse ones too. In the end I don't regret it."

So, is this still the case or not? Don't be playing fast and loose with us Chaxterium. If it walks like a duck...

[Chaxterium]

Yes that is still the case. As far as bonds go there are much worse ones in the industry.

[Chaxterium]

Did I like having to be bonded? No. Of course not. But your characterization of Voyageur pilots paying money to fly is flat out wrong my friend. Paying the bond up front in cash is an option yes. It's not the option I chose but nonetheless it is an option. At the end of the year the money is returned with interest.

I'm not going to sit here and defend the bond. That's a fight I'll never win; and rightfully so. It is what it is and it's annoying. But as I stated above there are much worse bonds in this industry and I don't understand why Voyageur is still the poster boy for bonds. It's unfortunate but this company has had to protect itself because there are people that come over here to these third world countries and just can't handle the environment, or being away from home or whatever it is, and bail. Now the company has to find and train someone else to take that person's spot. Voyageur simply asks for a year. For us on rotations that's a total of 6 months in the field.

[Doc]

I'm beginning to see the light, although dimly. Aviation is the only industry with massive training costs. It's the only industry that has people leave shortly after training. It's the only industry where employees are required to sign bonds to protect the poor companies who shouldn't be in business in the first place......I see the light. Keep spouting that venomous Kool Aide! Cheers.


I can confirm I did not get a loaned signed over to Voyageur. No money changed hands at any point. Do you think we go to the bank and take out a massive loan and walk the cash straight over to Voyageur's office?

How can you argue with this train of thought?


"You can either provide $15 000 or get a $15 000 loan from the bank, however THIS IS NOT PAID TO VOYAGEUR. This is kept in a jointly held GIC at the bank, in trust, and the bank is provided the contract.

This sure sounds like if you bail you owe? Maybe it's just me, but this sure sounds like money to Voyageur to me?

Yes that is still the case. As far as bonds go there are much worse ones in the industry.

And, it appears to be the case. Slight of hand at work here? A poor command of the question? Sometimes a complicated question can have a simple answer? Too deep for yawl? ( a yawl is similar to a Ketch) Must be.

[iflyforpie]

IFLY thinks a failed FCU is the same as a pilot that takes a powder after he has given his word to provide a service in return for his employers investment in him. Why, hell, they'll just come up with the cash to pay for it. The bonds were brought in because pilots couldn't be trusted to live up to their word. Plain and simple.

What about companies that don't live up to their word? I've been really lucky with who I've worked for, but even I have heard of many companies who do the bait and switch with regards to schedules or upgrades or push pilots beyond their limits. In that case, a pilot should have have every right to leave without being saddled with a huge bill. IMHO if there are going to be bonds, they should work both ways. Again, a few thousand is chump change for a limited liability company pulling in millions of dollars in revenue a year. Put it in a trust account. Nothing to worry about since they are so honest, right?

[shimmydampner]

I fail to see why this is such a big issue when it is really very simple. I see both sides of the argument, both for and against bonds. From the company's perspective it's not just the "few thousand" in training costs. It is also the added strain on other employees who have to step in and fill the slack, or find a new hire, train that new hire, deal with the paperwork, etc etc etc. The cost is greater than just the fuel in the plane. From the pilot perspective, no it is not ideal to have a large sum of money hanging over your head. However, as a professional adult one should reasonably be expected to sufficiently research a prospective employer (especially in this age of the Internet) and know whether or not it is a place they are willing to commit to. Furthermore, once a professional adult makes that commitment, they should reasonably be expected to fulfill that obligation for a year or two or whatever the case may be.
But we all know that is not how it really goes. Even the good doctor admits that where he works they are lucky to have a bunch that "gets it." I think that is the exception, not the rule. We all know that no matter how good certain companies pay/schedule/benefits/maintenance/machines/lifestyle/etc are, for probably the majority of pilots, due to factors such as location or aircraft type, they will never ever see that company as anything more than just a stepping stone to be moved on from at their earliest convenience. Until more pilots "get it" like Doc and his crew and realize that flying a "small" airplane for good money and a great lifestyle is every bit as good if not better than wearing a monkey suit in the front end of a flying computer, the cycle will continue.
Oh and employers, treat your pilots well. After all, they kinda are critical to your business.

Edited to add: I'm not referring to money up front bonds, which I don't agree with.

[snow-monkey]

Its not so bad. I signed a bond to start and never had to pay a dime. Now I'm a turboprop captain at the age of 24, making more money than any of my friends who took other career paths. Sure, I may elect to take a pay cut one day to get into an airline where my salary has more room to grow than my current company pay structure... But then again... maybe I won't. Either way, I got exactly what I expected out of this career when I elected to go to flight college instead of pursuing an engineering degree. My education was cheaper too. Had I not had the grades to get into a subsidized college, I would have probably had to chosen another career.

If it really is that bad... why are so many willing to do it? Being a pilot doesn't get me any sort of elevated level of respect. Definitely not the same level of respect friends of mine get for completing difficult degrees such as engineering or mathematics. certainly not the respect given to those who complete law or med school. Of course, why would it? Flight school ain't all that tough.

If you're not happy with the career, might be time for a career change. I personally can't think of anything I'd rather do more.

The only real shame with this industry is that there are so many ''pay to learn'' flight schools and so few ''get the grades and get flight training subsidized'' flight colleges.

[xsbank]

Somebody, when talking about Bearskin, said something like "why should the pilots take lower wages because pilots won't live up to their commitments?"

Good question. Tell me that after the imposition of bonds at Bearskin all the pilots got a significant raise and maybe, maybe I'll stop ragging on this topic.

I call BS.

[Rowdy]

Its not so bad. I signed a bond to start and never had to pay a dime. Now I'm a turboprop captain at the age of 24, making more money than any of my friends who took other career paths. Sure, I may elect to take a pay cut one day to get into an airline where my salary has more room to grow than my current company pay structure... But then again... maybe I won't. Either way, I got exactly what I expected out of this career when I elected to go to flight college instead of pursuing an engineering degree. My education was cheaper too. Had I not had the grades to get into a subsidized college, I would have probably had to chosen another career.

If it really is that bad... why are so many willing to do it? Being a pilot doesn't get me any sort of elevated level of respect. Definitely not the same level of respect friends of mine get for completing difficult degrees such as engineering or mathematics. certainly not the respect given to those who complete law or med school. Of course, why would it? Flight school ain't all that tough.

If you're not happy with the career, might be time for a career change. I personally can't think of anything I'd rather do more.

The only real shame with this industry is that there are so many ''pay to learn'' flight schools and so few ''get the grades and get flight training subsidized'' flight colleges.

I call BS.. or maybe your buddies decided theyd rather get baked and work at rotten ronnies. My buddies have done only marginally well, so have I. I'm still however at the bottom of the list when it comes to T4's.. One, a civil engineer, second year after being cut loose, showed 93k, my friend the plumber 94.5k the pipe fitter who is a rotational worker now 97k!!, I'm on par with my Cop buddy who makes 65k(no overtime this year with a new baby).. but he has a full pension setup, full medical and dental and pretty much everything else related to the job is covered.. oh.. and he cleared somewhere in the 80's the year prior. Guess who works the most? Me. Why? Because of the attitude of so many others in this industry who would sell their mother to the whore house to fly a shiny jet.. and step on everyone else on the way to the brothel. Thanks guys!

[shimmydampner]

Talk about calling BS...your employment situation is not a result of anyone's actions/decisions other than your own. If you feel you don't make enough money, ask for a raise. Simple. Life is easier when you behave like a man, take control of it and stop blaming everyone else for your problems.

[Blue_Yonder]

Walmart Greeter Wanted
Must pay $300 for training.

Tim Horton's coffee girl wanted.
Must sign $500 training bond.

McDonalds
Burger Flipper wanted
Must pay $1000 to help defray training costs, because the last guy we trained ran off to A&W

Canadian Tire
Requires cashier
Training contract to be signed.
Two year commitment required.
Training bond for $700 required.

The Law Firm of Johnny Walker, Peter Dewer, Dooey, Screwem and Howe
Seeking Law Clerk in busy office.
Must live within 30 minutes of the office, or have a crash pad within 30 minutes.
Must park, wash Senior Partner's cars as required.
This position may lead to a research position for the right individual after two years of working in our parking lot.
Training bonds required for each of the first two filing cabinets the clerk is chained to.
Must be willing to sign a 2 year training contract of $30,000

North Slope Sheepherder Urgently Required
Training contract of $500 required to become familiar with sheep.
There can only be one ewe for you...

This is how our industry looks to EVERYBODY on the outside.
We are a frikken JOKE!
Don't buy what I say? Ask ANYBODY NOT INVOLVED IN AVIATION
We are RETARDED!!!
It's that simple.

If you don't have pride in aviation, why stay? Just leave. Shit talking isn't going to solve anything. It just adds to the embarrassment.

[snow-monkey]

I call BS.. or maybe your buddies decided theyd rather get baked and work at rotten ronnies. My buddies have done only marginally well, so have I. I'm still however at the bottom of the list when it comes to T4's.. One, a civil engineer, second year after being cut loose, showed 93k, my friend the plumber 94.5k the pipe fitter who is a rotational worker now 97k!!, I'm on par with my Cop buddy who makes 65k(no overtime this year with a new baby).. but he has a full pension setup, full medical and dental and pretty much everything else related to the job is covered.. oh.. and he cleared somewhere in the 80's the year prior. Guess who works the most? Me. Why? Because of the attitude of so many others in this industry who would sell their mother to the whore house to fly a shiny jet.. and step on everyone else on the way to the brothel. Thanks guys!

Your friend the civil engineer deserves to be compensated much higher than you. He's an engineer, you are a pilot. Without even comparing how much more difficult it is to complete an engineering degree than flight school.... You need very high grades to even be admitted to university for engineering... You just need money to become a pilot. Having said that, your friend made 13k a year more than I currently make, and I am not counting my per diems. Have you any experience pluming?? In high school I made money assisting a Plummer. The job sucks. I'd rather make less money flying. Admittedly many of my friends have liberal arts degrees, which they can't exactly do much with. But they aren't sitting around getting high and listening to records. They are having a much more difficult time finding ways to pay of their student debts. But overall, I still hold the same opinion: we pilot's don't have it all that bad. Many of us still love to cry about it though.

[Doc]

Walmart Greeter Wanted
Must pay $300 for training.

Tim Horton's coffee girl wanted.
Must sign $500 training bond.

McDonalds
Burger Flipper wanted
Must pay $1000 to help defray training costs, because the last guy we trained ran off to A&W

Canadian Tire
Requires cashier
Training contract to be signed.
Two year commitment required.
Training bond for $700 required.

The Law Firm of Johnny Walker, Peter Dewer, Dooey, Screwem and Howe
Seeking Law Clerk in busy office.
Must live within 30 minutes of the office, or have a crash pad within 30 minutes.
Must park, wash Senior Partner's cars as required.
This position may lead to a research position for the right individual after two years of working in our parking lot.
Training bonds required for each of the first two filing cabinets the clerk is chained to.
Must be willing to sign a 2 year training contract of $30,000

North Slope Sheepherder Urgently Required
Training contract of $500 required to become familiar with sheep.
There can only be one ewe for you...

This is how our industry looks to EVERYBODY on the outside.
We are a frikken JOKE!
Don't buy what I say? Ask ANYBODY NOT INVOLVED IN AVIATION
We are RETARDED!!!
It's that simple.

If you don't have pride in aviation, why stay? Just leave. Shit talking isn't going to solve anything. It just adds to the embarrassment.

If YOU had any "pride" at all, you'd GET it. Obviously you don't! I'm NOT "shit talking" aviation, I'm "shit talking" STUPIDITY! Now run along, sign a bond, and go flip buggers.

[Lurch]

Just saw this in the Job bank

PRM should be willing to sign an agreement.

They don't specify Bond but what other kind of agreement would they need?

since when does a PRM position require an "agreement"?

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=84719

Lurch

[Colonel Sanders]

when does a PRM position require an "agreement"?

Sounds like somebody wants a b1tch that they can push
around and intimidate into allowing non-airworthy aircraft
to fly - or else!

[Doc]

Just saw this in the Job bank

PRM should be willing to sign an agreement.

They don't specify Bond but what other kind of agreement would they need?

since when does a PRM position require an "agreement"?

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=84719

Lurch

They're looking for a "well Knowledgeable Person....." Obviously not written by an English major!

[trey kule]

One of the consequences of requiring a bond, from a company perspective, is that you have narrowedthe people wanting to be hired based on their willingness and ability to provide money/ bond or similar. I think they might just be missing some very good people.
If pilots are finding out after a tour or two that the charms of living in some foreign country is not for them and bail, that speaks volumes about their HR departments hiring ability.
Quite frankly any company that invites you to an interview on your own dime would be suspect in my opinion....they have already prequalified you for low self esteem, desperation, and stupidity..
And unfortunately, we are never going to eliminate such types from the profession. Or such companies.
Now, in the defense of companies, I have witnesses pilot professing their love and loyalty, and then two weeks after they got that paid for ppc, giving one days notice......sorry they say, but I just got to take this job....you know the one that they sent the resume to, two weeks earlier.
It is vicious circle. Training makes a pilot more employable and more valuable.

[Blue_Yonder]

Walmart Greeter Wanted
Must pay $300 for training.

Tim Horton's coffee girl wanted.
Must sign $500 training bond.

McDonalds
Burger Flipper wanted
Must pay $1000 to help defray training costs, because the last guy we trained ran off to A&W

Canadian Tire
Requires cashier
Training contract to be signed.
Two year commitment required.
Training bond for $700 required.

The Law Firm of Johnny Walker, Peter Dewer, Dooey, Screwem and Howe
Seeking Law Clerk in busy office.
Must live within 30 minutes of the office, or have a crash pad within 30 minutes.
Must park, wash Senior Partner's cars as required.
This position may lead to a research position for the right individual after two years of working in our parking lot.
Training bonds required for each of the first two filing cabinets the clerk is chained to.
Must be willing to sign a 2 year training contract of $30,000

North Slope Sheepherder Urgently Required
Training contract of $500 required to become familiar with sheep.
There can only be one ewe for you...

This is how our industry looks to EVERYBODY on the outside.
We are a frikken JOKE!
Don't buy what I say? Ask ANYBODY NOT INVOLVED IN AVIATION
We are RETARDED!!!
It's that simple.

If you don't have pride in aviation, why stay? Just leave. Shit talking isn't going to solve anything. It just adds to the embarrassment.

If YOU had any "pride" at all, you'd GET it. Obviously you don't! I'm NOT "shit talking" aviation, I'm "shit talking" STUPIDITY! Now run along, sign a bond, and go flip buggers.

There's other ways to express your frustration and address reality. My mind isn't made up as to whether or not bonds are right, but I do know that your train of thought totally undermines the years of work and the tens of thousands of dollars people have spent getting to their stage of career.

Where there seems to be a disconnect is the cost involved with training a newbie on the line. People complain that the requirements to get picked up by a company are already too high, well they'd be even higher if the employers had no way of tying fresh pilots to their company. Who wants to hire low time pilots when they know they’re going to leave, right? So legally, they can’t force you to stay, but maybe a training bond would give you that incentive.

Finally, you get that training bond back after a few years. If you stick with it, it's not a sunk cost. If I've got to shell an extra 10K to get hired, so be it. I'm already 80K into it. Is it right? I can't say for sure, but it's reality. If I don't take it, there's five guys at the door ready to leap frog over me who will take it.