Expat jobs

[Bswitch]

Hi !!
I m currently doing my license in CQFA and i want to know if it would be easier to get a job with a low time experience by going overseas ?

I heard Asia en emirates are in expansion, but can i work there with just 500 hrs experience. I know about being away from my home and living in an other culture, its something i want to do and if its easier for canadian pilot to get a job with less hours, would be really great!

[Flap_Operator]

That will definately imply investing in a type rating if you want to wonder around the asian market and united arab emirates..... Its a big gamble for a low timer, since the type rating say 737NG or A320 doesnt stay valid forever.
Its worth a try, but personally I would suggest building a bit of time beforehand around 750-1000... I had two buds try it with 737NG ratings straight out of school and well both were SOL one's rampie and other begging to fly right seat on a ho and ratings have now expired... Good waste of money...just after paying 60K for their school... Luckily for u cqfa is free so maybe u can save some money towards ur rating.

Just make sure if you pay your rating you stay overseas and not steal some honest hardworking canadian pilot job

My two cents

[Panama Jack]

Speaking from personal experience, the first jobs are tough to get but it is generally easier in your home country than overseas. A lot of the low time jobs have locals competing for them too, often with local immigration laws backing up their preferibility.

Forget the UAE unless you have a UAE passport in your desk drawer. Indonesia could be an option; beware though.

[tbaylx]

No one legitimate is hiring low timers overseas. Emirates requires 4000+ hours and significant amounts of jet experience before they will look at you, and it's very competitive. Likewise for other middle eastern carriers. There is no shortage of inexperienced pilots in asia either..the shortage is for experienced high time jet captains.

The only people that are going to hire you overseas are companies looking to take advantage of you and take your money. They know you are desperate to get experience and take full advantage of that fact.

If you want to start a flying career you'll learn quickly that the best asset you can have in Canada is a good network of people that know you in the industry. They are the ones that will get you a jobs throughout your career here. Be professional, don't burn bridges and be dependable.

If you're a low timer starting out there are no shortcuts..in canada or overseas. If you want to fly overseas get your experience here then go once you are marketable and experienced. The last thing a canadian carrier wants to hire is someone who learned to fly on a B737 in Indonesia.

[Bswitch]

Thanks for your answers.
I'm not planning to fly a B737 for Air Asia or some like that as a low timer, but to work for a second level company as a FO on a DASH-8 or Q400 or equivalent. The equivalent of Pascan, Air Inuit and maybe Jazz.
Is south america good for expat pilot, Africa, Autralia, New Zeland, Usa, Asia.
Or maybe a twin otter, i ve heard they air taxi in the Maldives. That kind of job i'm looking for...

[Flap_Operator]

South America is hard to get into even with significant experience, they hire locals, which is a good thing, very few expats and spanish speaking is a must. USA might be easier in a few years, but now its hard to get visas even harder for a pilot because there are no shortages at the moment. Aussie and NZ will hire locals first also, your only luck would be Asia, but like tbaylx said, no one legit will hire a low timer, you could get lucky with the Cathay Second Officer Program.

Now for the Maldives I know Kenn Borek use to have a contract down there, but i dont know if they still do you would have to check it out. Otherwise if you are really interested in overseas work there are a few Canadian companies that have overseas contract. My advice to you would be try and get hired across the street in that 703 operator EA, build some time and then try to apply.. Look into Regional1, Voyageur Airways, Trans Capital (i dont recommend) might be forgetting one or two.

Cheers

[tbaylx]

Thanks for your answers.
I'm not planning to fly a B737 for Air Asia or some like that as a low timer, but to work for a second level company as a FO on a DASH-8 or Q400 or equivalent. The equivalent of Pascan, Air Inuit and maybe Jazz.
Is south america good for expat pilot, Africa, Autralia, New Zeland, Usa, Asia.
Or maybe a twin otter, i ve heard they air taxi in the Maldives. That kind of job i'm looking for...

Again anyone who would hire a low timer for an F/O job overseas is looking to make money off you...they have plenty of their own 200 hour wonders dying to get in the right seat of whatever..they don't need to hire expats. The expat jobs are for experienced F/O's with B777 time or similar or experienced captains on jets or large turboprops, or those that want to pay thousands of dollars to work for a company under some sort of twisted pay to fly scheme. Air Asia would actually be a decent operator to work for considering alternatives..but again they are looking for experienced Captains and they hire low time locals as F/O's.

No idea about South America but imagine its similar. Forget the US..they have thousands of guys on furlough down there looking for work..and the pay can make some of the shady operators in Canada look good and you'll have to convince a American gal to marry you before you could even apply unless you already have dual citizenship.

AFAIK Borek no longer does the Maldives thing..its all locally operated now. Once and awhile they look for Captains with lots of float experience..not seen an advert for low time F/O's.

Stick it out in Canada..it's a much easier career ladder to climb then try and find decent work overseas with no time at an operator that will train you properly and not try and kill you during operations. Not only that but you will build a network here and it's not as easy as people think to return to Canada after working overseas.

[Flap_Operator]

I second tbaylx Canada is great experience and once u do build time here, experienced canadian pilots are extremely wanted in UAE

[JTF01]

The other place you could consider going is Africa. A lot of lower time folks start out in Botswana/Namibia doing aerial tours or safari game park flights. However there is a good amount of competition for that kind of work and you literally have to show up at the door of these outfits and pound on it for a while to get in - with no guarantees. There is a thread on Pprune that has good intel on that kind of stuff.

Depending on your risk and comfort factor, you may be able to find work in other African countries. General rule of thumb - the worse off the country, the better your opportunity will be. Then again, you'll get minimal training, your salary will likely be months late, and there is the question of how seriously a legitimate Canadian operator would take the flight time you got there.

These also are not the kind of jobs you find online. You literally have to go, pound the pavement, make some connections, and hope for a bit of luck.

Choose your own adventure! Good luck!

jtf01

[Bswitch]

Thanks everybody for your answers !!!

[Joe Blow Schmo]

If you want to work overseas you'll still need to start in Canada. If you're looking at the middle east airlines, your goal should be to get jet time in an airline operation as quickly as possible. So try to tailor your career progress towards getting that jet job. If you want to work elsewhere in Asia, generally there will only be contract jobs available for experienced Captains. If that is your goal then you will need airline jet command experience. Again you need to tailor your career towards that goal (after the recent announcement, SkyRegional might be the quickest place to get your jet command time).

[Starting 4]

No one legitimate is hiring low timers overseas.

Not true tbaylx. Cathay Pacific will consider you for an interview with as little as 250hrs and a CPL.

If hired, you will be offered an SO position and will fly either the B777, A340 or -400.

Cathay career

[tbaylx]

No one legitimate is hiring low timers overseas.

Not true tbaylx. Cathay Pacific will consider you for an interview with as little as 250hrs and a CPL.

If hired, you will be offered an SO position and will fly either the B777, A340 or -400.

Cathay career

Sure they'll hire you..have you seen what they pay and what it costs to live in HongKong? It's hardly a flying job either..being a seat warmer in cruise dealing with the crap Cathay puts out is hardly my idea of pilots job..whatever floats your boat though. Just be ware of what you're getting yourself into with that, Cathay is not the airline it once was and that is a prime example of why. Wasn't that long ago they were getting guys with thousands of hours wanting S/O jobs there. There is a reason they now take 250 hour guys with huge bonds and little pay, no housing etc. Do your due diligence, and i maintain no one legitimate is hiring low timers overseas.

[factchecker]

I've just signed up so I can start to correct people who make ill informed and/or silly posts. I'd like to start with the tbaylx post above.

I'd suggest that you obviously have absolutely no idea about the current CX package and who they are hiring. I'll correct you for the benefit of those that may be interested.

I'll start with who they are hiring. They cannot hire anyone who isn't a permanent Hong Kong resident with no experience. i.e. ab initio. The immigration department will not issue visas. Rightfully so. That means they hire people with some experience, say 1000 hours and a CPL, and the same people they have always hired. People with thousands of hours and an ATPL. Plenty of new SO fall into the latter. There is absolutely no recruiting problem.

Pay is actually the same for all HK based pilots (b scale which is pretty much everybody now). What is different is that new joiners do not receive expat benefits. They receive a cash allowance instead. It is much lower than what someone who joined on the expat package, but its something. Also the "bond" is a bond in a really good way. The give you $100K CAD in cash, if you leave before 6 years you pay the pro-rated amount back. Let me do some numbers for you using the example of someone who decides to come and "tough-out" HK for 6 years. Which as an aside is much better than toughing it out in say, CYRB for 6 years.

Salary: using the current upgrade time of 4 years to F/O, should come in at around 3.5million HKD.

Bonuses: using the past 6 years as an example lets say an extra 6 months salary. I'll be conservative and use year 1 SO pay. 210K HKD.

Allowance: 720K HKD

Total compensation: 4.63 million.

So lets say you are smart and use your 100K "bond" to buffer you through the first 2 leaner years. You can expect an average monthly, after tax (16%) income of : 6800 CAD (using today's exchange rate)

Now, you won't get the same size of house as you can get in Canada. Most Canadians spend around 40% of their income on housing. If you spend 20% in HK you can get a nice apartment and live comfortably. Also, especially if you are single, it's a great place to live. If you are a bit older and have a wife and kids its a different situation. The job might not be for you!

The SO job is easy. Minimal work, hundreds of dollars in cash to spend when you check in for your layovers and despite what you've heard a pretty decent bunch of guys to work with. Oh and a whopping 12 days of work per month max!

Eventually you get promoted to FO. You finish your 6 years with at least a 1000 hours of wide body jet time and a type rating. That's without counting a single hour as SO which most regulators will give you some credit for.

So lets say you are in your early 20,s. In your late 20's you are a very marketable guy with quality wide body time. Go home if you want. Fly for WestJet. Or stay and get the left seat in your mid 30's.

So I ask. Go north or go east?

[fundi]

as per "factchecker" - 'So lets say you are in your early 20,s. In your late 20's you are a very marketable guy with quality wide body time. Go home if you want. Fly for WestJet. Or stay and get the left seat in your mid 30's.'

Sorry, there may be the odd guy like this that gets on at WJ, but not likely. There will be far more candidates that have quality PIC time, truckin it around or through the wx up north, a whole bunch of millitary guys in line, a whole bunch of T-prop PIC Canadian experience ppl, etc. These types will get looked at long before "the guy in late 20's who 'worked his way up the CX ladder', and just wants to come home now". Just because you spent time in a wide body doesn't prove much. Like you said, its an easy job....and all that young kid knows is, 'an easy job'.

I'm not saying CX doesn't work for some. For sure, those that are single, and up for an adventure...go for it, if thats your goal. Or you'll always wonder what it might have been like. (most of us still stop and take that extra long look at the queen of the skies when she strolls by!) If the road through CX doesn't work like you hoped, you'll of meet all sorts of great ppl and you should find many more opportunities overseas. Treat people right, learn everything you can, work hard, embrace new cultures, don't burn your bridges and the world is your oyster!

[JTF01]

Factchecker - If you want to talk yourself into flying for Cathay on local terms, you are welcome to it. Be aware you'll be in for a very rude surprise if you go in with many of the misconceptions

Here is a post by a fellow Canuck who recently took the job, then left a few months into it. Just want people to be aware of all they will be getting into.

Reality check for those thinking of joining...
Hi all

Sorry, very long post, but I've been staying quiet this whole time and just browsing the happenings in Hong Kong, but I feel like I have to speak up for anyone considering joining Cathay. I've been holding off on posting anything til I got the company off my back but here you go.

I joined cx last year via the TT program against my gut instincts and against everything I'd been hearing on PPRuNe. Just a bunch of whiners on PPRuNe who would be unhappy no matter where they work, I told myself. Turns out I was wrong and they were right. I should have gone with my gut and stayed far away from Cathay, so hopefully this post will give people something to think about.

I left CX after about 6 months for various reasons. Some are personal, so I won't get into that here, but others apply to everyone, and I think it's important that people know what they're getting into. The company you are joining is not the world class airline they like to lead everyone to believe, but still the same old company that brought us the 49ers saga. BTW read John Warham's book on the 49ers. I wish I did before I went. As for the reasons working at Cathay is not all you think it is, here are some things to consider:

- We all know Hong Kong's real estate is expensive, but it's a lot worse than you may think. Those apartments you see advertised within your budget look all shiny on the realtor websites. The reality is you will spend much more than your 10K "allowance" to live in something that is severely below the standard that you are used to living in the west.

- Enjoy any kind of outdoor activities? Well, you can kiss that goodbye, unless hiking in a concrete path past piles of garbage to some polluted beach is your idea of fun. Sure, you may think HK is a fun and exciting city. I know I did before I actually lived there. Then you realize that all there is to do is shopping and drinking. Music scene? Forget about it. Arts, culture? The only culture in HK is money. Besides, you won't be able to afford to do anything other than drink 7-11 beers on the sidewalk in Lan Kwai Fong

- If you have any kind of flying experience, you're in for a shock at your role in the cockpit. I can't blame the captains I flew with for treating me like I didn't know anything since they've probably been stuck with cadets with zero time sitting in the other seat. But if you're coming to cx with any kind of operational experience, you're gonna be pretty frustrated if the only things you're trusted to do on your own are to carry the document bag or eat sandwiches. Sitting in the right seat making radio calls to russian ATC does not make for a rewarding career.

- If you want to get based anywhere near where you're from, you may as well forget about that too. I know that right now the basing situation is up in the air, but I would not hold my breath on ever getting based outside Hong Kong if you join now.

- This won't necessarily happen to everyone but a few months after I joined we were asked to go to the 5th floor and sign new contracts. We were told that they had been changed a little bit for tax purposes. On closer inspection though, I noticed the biggest change. The entire "forgiveable loan" was no longer prorated if you chose to leave early. Now, only the "course fee" in Adelaide was prorated, so the rest of the 875K does not come down until you have worked there for 6 years. Of course, in Cathay-land, it's sign or you're fired, so we signed it and decided that we would all stick up for each other should anyone ever question which contract we signed originally, and which one we were coerced into signing.

Anyway, those were some of my reasons for leaving. Like I said, there were others as well and I was fully prepared to pay out the remainder of the contract and get out of there. Once you decide to make that move though, is when the company really shows its true colours. When I resigned from Cathay, I was presented 2 days later with a bill for the amount of money I owed the company from my contract. Problem is, the amount they claimed I owed them was about double what I came up with in my own calculations. The calculation looked like it had been done on Excel by a 9 year old who had never even read the contract. When I asked if I could make a photocopy of the numbers they came up with, I was told that they couldn't do that. So I went through the contract again and came up with the amount that I had to repay and sent them those numbers. I had only spent 4 weeks in Adelaide and not the entire 12-14 for the normal TT course. Of course that didn't stop them from trying to claim the whole amount. After some further wrangling, we came up with a number that was much more fair and in the spirit of the (shi**y) contract I was stupid enough to sign.

Now came the HK tax issue. The company would not give me a tax return before my departure date from Hong Kong. Instead they chose to send me threatening emails claiming I had to pay the full amount owing before I left. Considering my salary in Hong Kong, I simply did not have that kind of money lying around. I had to go home to take out some money that I had invested in order to pay them. In the end, I had to leave Hong Kong quietly without the company or the IRD knowing. I managed to deal with the IRD myself from home but the company was no help.

When I got back to Canada, I sent Cathay half the money I owed them, and told them they would receive the rest once I get a copy of my final paystub with the amount that they withheld, so that I can subtract it from the amount I still owe them. I never received this paystub. Instead, I got a letter from a lawyer in Canada. This letter claimed that I still owed them the rest of the money, with no mention of the amount from my last paycheque that I never got paid. Of course, in true cathay fashion, the letter came with the usual threats and intimidation.

In the end, I decided that Cathay has much more in the way of resources for legal battles, so I borrowed money from a bank and paid them the money owing from the contract to get them off my back. I’m living back in Canada, flying for a regional airline, which funnily enough provides me with a much better lifestyle than Cathay did. I regret my decision to go to HK, but don’t regret my decision to leave for one second. Living in the polluted cesspool that is Hong Kong is not worth any amount of money in the world, and it definitely isn’t worth what they’re paying right now. In addition, working for a faceless corporation that threatens employees who have the audacity to leave is just not worth the loss of freedom. Unfortunately, the only measure of revenge I can take against the company is to post this on PPRuNe and discourage anyone I know from ever going there.

Personally, I was lucky enough to have a way out, but this may not be an option for everyone who goes. I'm not saying you shouldn't go but, if you do, you have been warned. Good luck to all

[tbaylx]

@factchecker

Hope it works out for ya..i know more than 1 guy that thought the same and went there and found out differently though. Best of luck.

[DGuy]

Not everybody likes city life and every city has its lesser desirable areas, hkg included. There are multiple ways of reaching your goal. This might be the domestic route, or the expat route. Some expats even live in Canada earning good salaries flying for well established Asian and European airlines.
I can assure you that there are a lot of Canadian pilots occupying desirable positions and living in cities such as Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam ,Singapore,even the French riviera, etc. Most of them made feel welcome in their host countries.
But keep on dreaming, starting your flying career earning $200000+ wages flying 747/380/777 equipment all based out of yyz/YVr/yul .
And on the subject of difficult weather and flying conditions, I can say that all continents have their own challenges.
Aviation has always been a difficult career choice , and requires some sacrifices. It is however easier during those hard times to blame others for your own mistakes/misjudgements.
However a career in aviation can be very fulfilling.

[pelmet]

I can assure you that there are a lot of Canadian pilots occupying desirable positions and living in cities such as Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam ,Singapore,even the French riviera, etc. Most of them made feel welcome in their host countries.

What airlines for Frankfurt, Paris, Amsterdam, French Riviera? Air China?

[CZBBYYZPilot]

Can I open this topic back up? Anybody living in Hong Kong care to share their experiences being an expat? How does Cathay treat expats? Any scoop on Cathay Dragon?

Thanks!