Sky Regional and Embraer jobs

[LTD]

I'm playing devils advocate again; better these EMJ stay in the air with lower cost operation than the operator decide to ground the planes and layoff the pilots all together like transat.

Fact is, it's a very competitive industry and better have planes flying for less than not flying at all.

And as a reminder to those that really can't stand the lower wages, if the lower wages make you this miserable, find a better paying job for another company or in another industry.

Deep down inside I hate this race to the bottom like anyone else. But If I'm not financially satisfied with being a pilot anymore one day, I would do something about it.

[mogas]

I'm playing devils advocate again; better these EMJ stay in the air with lower cost operation than the operator decide to ground the planes and layoff the pilots all together like transat.

Fact is, it's a very competitive industry and better have planes flying for less than not flying at all.

And as a reminder to those that really can't stand the lower wages, if the lower wages make you this miserable, find a better paying job for another company or in another industry.

Deep down inside I hate this race to the bottom like anyone else. But If I'm not financially satisfied with being a pilot anymore one day, I would do something about it.

It is a very competitive industry and I bet all operators are trying to save every dollar. But when it comes down to pilots washing planes and cleaning hangars because the company wants to save a few dollars on groomers and janitors, would you still be content at 35k per year while company executives pocket all the extras and bonuses?

[LTD]

If the company is making solid profits, no I would not accept such low wages.

But if it's between bankruptcy/grounding planes, I would accept lower wages until the company is financially healthy again.

[mogas]

Well they won't have to throw very much at them, there are plenty of 704 jobs paying 60,000 plus for left seat. There was an ad not long ago for Saab 340 captain 75,000/yr. Now Scab regional is going to pay 70,000 for 75 pax jet Captain, absolutely disgusting....
Problem is, there will a line up of Pilots willing to do it.

+1

I would love to see this stopped dead in its tracks now by ALL pilots (captains and fos) agreeing to refuse to fly a 75 pax jet at 70k and 35k, respectively (if that's what it really is). If we don't do it now, when?

But I know how this'll unfold....

As you probably know, some pilots feel tormented by their 703/704 operators...or maybe their going deaf and don't wanna sit beside a prop anymore. Going to SR would provide them with better conditions, a more co-operable dispatch and crew sked, and an FA that brings you coffee.

[MikeLima]

I'm playing devils advocate again; better these EMJ stay in the air with lower cost operation than the operator decide to ground the planes and layoff the pilots all together like transat.

Fact is, it's a very competitive industry and better have planes flying for less than not flying at all.

And as a reminder to those that really can't stand the lower wages, if the lower wages make you this miserable, find a better paying job for another company or in another industry.

Deep down inside I hate this race to the bottom like anyone else. But If I'm not financially satisfied with being a pilot anymore one day, I would do something about it.

LTD

Do you have a mortgage to pay and kids to feed at home?, if the answer is yes then I would be surprised of your comments above.
You can't accept the unacceptable, we are professionals with people's lives in your hands, we spent 60k in our education and training and years of personal and financial sacrifices, we are not fast food industry's employees, do you realize that?
My humble opinion and with all due respect....

MikeLima

[tbaylx]

If the company is making solid profits, no I would not accept such low wages.

But if it's between bankruptcy/grounding planes, I would accept lower wages until the company is financially healthy again.

Just wondering why you feel it's pilot wages that are the cause of a company unable to make it. If management is unable to make a company profitable, i fail to see why the employees should be the ones to suffer for it. Let the CEO's take a pay cut until the company is financially healthy again. If the company's that were poorly managed just went out of business then the strong well managed decent paying companies would be left, allowing pilots actually have decent lifestyle without constantly degrading the terms and conditions.

I would rather see a bankruptcy and grounding planes, even if i work there rather than fund someone else's large paycheck and pension while i accept continually lowering wages.

[airboy1]

Just wondering why you feel it's pilot wages that are the cause of a company unable to make it. If management is unable to make a company profitable, i fail to see why the employees should be the ones to suffer for it. Let the CEO's take a pay cut until the company is financially healthy again. If the company's that were poorly managed just went out of business then the strong well managed decent paying companies would be left, allowing pilots actually have decent lifestyle without constantly degrading the terms and conditions.

I would rather see a bankruptcy and grounding planes, even if i work there rather than fund someone else's large paycheck and pension while i accept continually lowering wages.

Once you learn the fundamentals, you'll also learn the inevitability of this industry. Pilots are not the only part of the system but do play a role.

With new feeder operations subcontracted to mainline:
-Elimination of older style pension plans
-Lower payscales across the board along with (maintenance, pilots, f/a, low service = low cost)
-Employees at Colgan and Comair (US feeders) finally started hitting top of payscale and this year both airlines were shut down due to "high costs"
-You will see numerous bankruptcies/mergers, specially at the regional feeders line, every 7-10 years in line with economic downturns. Suddenly new feeders emerge with exact same payscale but you once again start at year 1.
-Both Air Canada and Air Transat have subcontracted flying to lower cost airlines shafting mainline pilots, just the beginning boys and girls. The collective agreements / scope clause can now be changed via government legislation without employee support and airlines know this (Air Canada, Qantas, etc...)
-New trend is also hiring type rated pilots only which is a significant savings to training. (Canjet, Sunwing, Easyjet, etc...)

[Baphomet]

It must be an insult to have to sit beside and hear a senior captain talk about his career making the big bucks flying the 777 the world over and now the EMJ/Q400 is just a hobby and a third or fourth paycheque for him.

[LTD]

I'm playing devils advocate again; better these EMJ stay in the air with lower cost operation than the operator decide to ground the planes and layoff the pilots all together like transat.

Fact is, it's a very competitive industry and better have planes flying for less than not flying at all.

And as a reminder to those that really can't stand the lower wages, if the lower wages make you this miserable, find a better paying job for another company or in another industry.

Deep down inside I hate this race to the bottom like anyone else. But If I'm not financially satisfied with being a pilot anymore one day, I would do something about it.

LTD

Do you have a mortgage to pay and kids to feed at home?, if the answer is yes then I would be surprised of your comments above.
You can't accept the unacceptable, we are professionals with people's lives in your hands, we spent 60k in our education and training and years of personal and financial sacrifices, we are not fast food industry's employees, do you realize that?
My humble opinion and with all due respect....

MikeLima

You're right, I don't have a mortgage and no kids either.. Actually both are pending my financial situation giving the industry. Ironic now that you mention it.
It's true it doesn't make sense. We do deserve much more than what most of us are making.
The problem is, I don't know what to do about it. So sometimes I try to rationalize it the way I did in my previous quote.
But the truth remains, it's not looking good at all.
So what can we do about it?

[flyloose]

Rumor has it acpa has blocked company's idea to have acpa pilots train and check the skyregional guys. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in terms of sky's ability to recruit and train that many guys in such a short time span.

[Baphomet]

Hire foreign pilots with EMJ ratings because there is a lack of them in Canada

[Disco Stu]

Rumor has it acpa has blocked company's idea to have acpa pilots train and check the skyregional guys.

Incorrect. This hasn't even been suggested. Yet.

[CanadianEh]

Once you learn the fundamentals, you'll also learn the inevitability of this industry. Pilots are not the only part of the system but do play a role.

With new feeder operations subcontracted to mainline:
-Elimination of older style pension plans
-Lower payscales across the board along with (maintenance, pilots, f/a, low service = low cost)
-Employees at Colgan and Comair (US feeders) finally started hitting top of payscale and this year both airlines were shut down due to "high costs"
-You will see numerous bankruptcies/mergers, specially at the regional feeders line, every 7-10 years in line with economic downturns. Suddenly new feeders emerge with exact same payscale but you once again start at year 1.
-Both Air Canada and Air Transat have subcontracted flying to lower cost airlines shafting mainline pilots, just the beginning boys and girls. The collective agreements / scope clause can now be changed via government legislation without employee support and airlines know this (Air Canada, Qantas, etc...)
-New trend is also hiring type rated pilots only which is a significant savings to training. (Canjet, Sunwing, Easyjet, etc...)

+1 million.

This is EXACTLY what is happening and will continue to happen. The only way I see this getting fixed is regulating the supply side of the pilot equation. It's already starting to happen because young people are realizing that they can put the same effort in doing something else with the ability to command better wages and job security. Go to any flight school and you'll notice that many of the students being trained are not from Canada and or not planning on staying in Canada.

[tbaylx]

Once you learn the fundamentals, you'll also learn the inevitability of this industry. Pilots are not the only part of the system but do play a role.

With new feeder operations subcontracted to mainline:
-Elimination of older style pension plans
-Lower payscales across the board along with (maintenance, pilots, f/a, low service = low cost)
-Employees at Colgan and Comair (US feeders) finally started hitting top of payscale and this year both airlines were shut down due to "high costs"
-You will see numerous bankruptcies/mergers, specially at the regional feeders line, every 7-10 years in line with economic downturns. Suddenly new feeders emerge with exact same payscale but you once again start at year 1.
-Both Air Canada and Air Transat have subcontracted flying to lower cost airlines shafting mainline pilots, just the beginning boys and girls. The collective agreements / scope clause can now be changed via government legislation without employee support and airlines know this (Air Canada, Qantas, etc...)
-New trend is also hiring type rated pilots only which is a significant savings to training. (Canjet, Sunwing, Easyjet, etc...)

+1 million.

This is EXACTLY what is happening and will continue to happen. The only way I see this getting fixed is regulating the supply side of the pilot equation. It's already starting to happen because young people are realizing that they can put the same effort in doing something else with the ability to command better wages and job security. Go to any flight school and you'll notice that many of the students being trained are not from Canada and or not planning on staying in Canada.

Yeah but we'll hire them back here anyway on a seasonal basis

[tdp19]

Found this on another Sky Regional forum from 2010

Ng78posted "I'm hearing $31,200 for F/O's plus $14 per hour, and $54,000 for captains plus $22 or $24 an hour. They are aiming for 85 hours per month.

ACPA should definitely be ashamed of allowing Air Canada to use a second Tier 2 operator and allowing them to lower the standards further. This does not help ACPA members, and honestly Air Canada should want to put pressure on Porter by paying slightly more to draw pilots from their operation and increasing Porter's overall costs as well. ACPA definitely dropped the ball in my eyes."

Anyone interviewed or currently working for Sky Regional can actually confirm those are the actual figures?

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Speaking about lowering the bar and wages, I just saw an ad on the employment page for full-time flight attendants for Sky. The salary? $22,000 annually. And that's to live on in Toronto. Makes me sick.

[Squid]

My bro said those numbers are correct. With the added hourly credit hours ( reserve/training etc.) it equals about an extra 10 k for a FO and an extra 15 for a capt. that's a guarantee for a full year. So roughly 41/yr for a FO and 67/yr capt. Encore will have to sharpen the pencil! So loc and teacher, what are u guys doing about that in your own back yard? Lol.

[Panama Jack]

Hire foreign pilots with EMJ ratings because there is a lack of them in Canada

I know you are being facetious, but this was already done when Air Canada got the Embraers. The trainers were from Swiss Aviation Training.

In any case, I don't think that the model of hiring foreign pilots with E170 ratings will fit with the low-cost model of the company. Furthermore, the year-round "supply" will be a lot more stable than the sun & fun charters with their wildly alternating summer/winter schedules.

[Panama Jack]

This is EXACTLY what is happening and will continue to happen. The only way I see this getting fixed is regulating the supply side of the pilot equation. It's already starting to happen because young people are realizing that they can put the same effort in doing something else with the ability to command better wages and job security. Go to any flight school and you'll notice that many of the students being trained are not from Canada and or not planning on staying in Canada.

Probably a good thing. . . for pilots at least. The airline industry still lacks maturity (hence the wild swing cycles). There has been an oversupply of qualified personnel and that has driven wages and conditions downwards (CPL's working ramps and stuff like that). Great subsidy, in a way, for operators who fly older aircraft on a lean budget (these are LCC's in themselves).

Now that younger people are peeking through the window and comparing this career with others, there aren't all that many who are attracted to what the outlook its. Hopefully, that will help clean up the situation a bit (eventually).

[funsharp]

No, it'll never end. The tap water is always open so...Thats how financial works, 1000 jobs, 2000 employes, salaries get down.
I known things has been said many times but. Do we have in Canada ,in any others jobs, the opportunities to give Canadian work to non-Canadian people? Its bad but we need professional assistance: Government issue, law, ... and then everyone will work and people from all around the world will be able to ask for work in Canada, but everything will be set for that, everything will have been look, with a "professional association" like ingineers have. We, pilots from all around the world, are piss off of all that, we really need government issue about it and then lets have decent work for every one. Thank you

[Flap_Operator]

Totally true.... The government needs to put their foot downon this situation... It is pathetic and ridiculous...

[teacher]

My bro said those numbers are correct. With the added hourly credit hours ( reserve/training etc.) it equals about an extra 10 k for a FO and an extra 15 for a capt. that's a guarantee for a full year. So roughly 41/yr for a FO and 67/yr capt. Encore will have to sharpen the pencil! So loc and teacher, what are u guys doing about that in your own back yard? Lol.

Not much we can do. We fought for our improved wages and working conditions and were promptly under cut. That's how it'll work until the supply and demand curve changes. Jazz doesn't seem so bad any more eh?

[funsharp]

If we really want, we can. We are pilot because we decided to, so let's have a commun focus, let's work together.
We are able to change things, it's not easy but we are a big industry, financially speaking.
Country like us, to be healthy, need good aviation, construction, ...
Why construction workers have there own rules, hours, for specific work and so on?
They must have work for it, no?
When we have a plumbing problem, we call, we pay accordingly and we get a professional result; put We pay accordingly.
Thats no other issue about it, if not it would be illegal, the domain has his own rules that we have to follow, no dout, no choice.
We are , pilots, kind of used to work for our own carreer, but for that, we really need to work all together.

[Squid]

My bro said those numbers are correct. With the added hourly credit hours ( reserve/training etc.) it equals about an extra 10 k for a FO and an extra 15 for a capt. that's a guarantee for a full year. So roughly 41/yr for a FO and 67/yr capt. Encore will have to sharpen the pencil! So loc and teacher, what are u guys doing about that in your own back yard? Lol.

Not much we can do. We fought for our improved wages and working conditions and were promptly under cut. That's how it'll work until the supply and demand curve changes. Jazz doesn't seem so bad any more eh?

Jazz doesn't seem so bad!
If you can hang on to your work! Size and working conditions. There is nothing that says contracts can't go the other way - they always don't have to improve. The mentality of "fight" for what you have is long gone.

Many were asleep at the wheel the last few years IMHO.

[tsgas]

Jazz doesn't seem so bad!
If you can hang on to your work! Size and working conditions. There is nothing that says contracts can't go the other way - they always don't have to improve. The mentality of "fight" for what you have is long gone.

Many were asleep at the wheel the last few years IMHO.[/quote]

As Arnie (Buffalo Airways) would say "hold on to yer hats boyes" Just look at what has been happening in the US. Comair pilots won a great contract only to see there company close down. Companies are being forced by there lenders to make profits and stop the bleeding that has gone on since 2000.

AC is putting the squeeze to Jazz and something with have to give be it wages or jobs.

Pax are demanding lower fares and many are driving to the US to save $. Government taxes and fees are as big an enemy to pilot's careers as airline mis-management is.