Trades people VS Pilots

[longjon]

There was an article in the AB papers about Jr. Engineers starting salary of $80 to $85000. This is not in the patch in BFN but on infrastructure project and the city. This is STARTING, if you go out of town expect to earn well over $100,000.
This leads me to comment that a pilot is not classified as a trades person, why do they get their qualifications then fight for a $35 to $50,000 a yr position.
I always liked the comparrison to teaching a monkey to ride a bicycle, but if the chain comes off???

[Beefitarian]

It's kind of strange that the engineers I know are not buying nicer houses and have loans just to buy a new pick up. They must be really bad with all that money.

[Lost Lake]

Because entry level Engineers have a sense of self worth, and feel that after paying for an education, they are entitled to a job that pays better than the Canadian minimum wage, which is over $20K per year. I might point out that a lot of those minimum wage employers offer, benefits, pensions, etc.

Entry level pilots, on the other hand are like a paniced crowd at a soccer match, pushing and running each other over to get into a pilot's seat at any price.

The other problem is that engineering firms know that people make them money, aircraft owners think airplanes make them money. People are just the cost of running the airplanes, so if you can keep your costs down....

Solution: Get the engineering degree first, then get your private license. After your 40 hour, monday to fri 9 to 5 job is over, you go home, take your plane out in ideal weather and go for a flight. Get to see sun and fun, oshkosh, fly-ins, etc. And if the weather is not good, or your exhausted from a 14 hour day, you don't fly.

I love my job...I love my job...I love my job...I love my job...I love my job........

[Beefitarian]

You guys should play Hockey they make way more than engineers and you don't even need a license or school.

[raven54]

Don't look too deep into it there fellas, it's a little thing called Supply and Demand. Plain and simple.

[human garbage]

...Solution: Get the engineering degree first, then get your private license. After your 40 hour, monday to fri 9 to 5 job is over, you go home, take your plane out in ideal weather and go for a flight. Get to see sun and fun, oshkosh, fly-ins, etc. And if the weather is not good, or your exhausted from a 14 hour day, you don't fly.

These are words of wisdom! Its what I advise anyone looking at a career in aviation now.

I wouldn't classify Engineers as trades people per se. A degree to me says 'professional'. Maybe this explains the disconnect in wages? Well not really I suppose... I made more as a carpenter than I ever have in this industry when inflation is factored in. Pretty sad when one compares swinging a hammer to flying an airplane. To boot it was regular Mon-Friday hours with full benefits/pension...

[iflyforpie]

Don't look too deep into it there fellas, it's a little thing called Supply and Demand. Plain and simple.

YES!!

It does not matter how much you paid to go to school.
It does not matter how long you went to school or the knowledge required.
It does not matter the value of the equipment you are responsible for.
It does not matter the value of human life you are responsible for.

The only thing that matters is how many people are qualified to do the job and are willing to work for the wage offered.

[jump154]

...Solution: Get the engineering degree first, then get your private license. After your 40 hour, monday to fri 9 to 5 job is over, you go home, take your plane out in ideal weather and go for a flight. Get to see sun and fun, oshkosh, fly-ins, etc. And if the weather is not good, or your exhausted from a 14 hour day, you don't fly.

These are words of wisdom! Its what I advise anyone looking at a career in aviation now.

I wouldn't classify Engineers as trades people per se. A degree to me says 'professional'. Maybe this explains the disconnect in wages? Well not really I suppose... I made more as a carpenter than I ever have in this industry when inflation is factored in. Pretty sad when one compares swinging a hammer to flying an airplane. To boot it was regular Mon-Friday hours with full benefits/pension...

Don't go calling me 'professional' - you'll get me in trouble with the PEO...... in the UK I'm a Professional, in Ontario I'm just a guy doing a job cos I didn't join the club.....

[Tanker299]

+1 IFP^^^^ It's not just the number of Pilots out there, as there are lots of jobs where supply exceeds demand. It is however that they wont accept a sub par wage or there is a good union/association (I know good union to some is an oxymoron) that wont let people work for low wage. Some people have standards.

When us pilots stop bandaging the situation and saying "Yes" to sub par wages and chasing iron we will be in a better place. I would love to try my hand at flying a Twin again, but I have yet to get an offer that beats what I make flying a Single.

[Geo]

There was an article in the AB papers about Jr. Engineers starting salary of $80 to $85000.

If a fresh engineering grad was making that kind of money straight out of school it would certainly be an exception. Even in the Calgary oil patch. Have you got a link to the article which claims this? [After about 3-5 years experience, this number would not be out of line though, depending on industry, economy and the individual]

For real data I suggest the annual APEGA salary survey, which expresses such data in ranges by experience, industry and responsibility levels.

This is not in the patch in BFN but on infrastructure project and the city. This is STARTING, if you go out of town expect to earn well over $100,000.

Even out of town, this strikes me as unlikely. I *do* hear of tradesmen making that kind of cheddar out in the field (and way more with experience) but I have no actual data to back that up.

This leads me to comment that a pilot is not classified as a trades person, why do they get their qualifications then fight for a $35 to $50,000 a yr position.

Supply & Demand as noted by some of the other posters. At that, engineers in the Calgary oil patch make far more than our colleagues in similar work in other jurisdictions. Vancouver for example, has far lower salaries for engineers (pull the APEGBC salary survey for comparison if you like). This despite the fact that living expenses and taxes in Vancouver are higher than in Calgary.

Why? Well quite simply, more people seem to want to live in Vancouver - therefore more engineers competing for the same jobs, and so, lower salaries.

I always liked the comparrison to teaching a monkey to ride a bicycle, but if the chain comes off???

More relevant is the ratio of qualified bike riders to bikes.

If it makes you feel any better, Professional Engineers often complain about how much we make compared to doctors and lawyers, who usually have far lower potential liabilities than engineers.

g

[dazednconfused]

+1 IFP^^^^ It's not just the number of Pilots out there, as there are lots of jobs where supply exceeds demand. It is however that they wont accept a sub par wage or there is a good union/association (I know good union to some is an oxymoron) that wont let people work for low wage. Some people have standards.

Tanker299, I'm trying to think but where is there a high paying career where qualified supply, allowed to freely work, exceeds demand without wages dropping?

Nobody has mentioned something along the lines of you are paid what you generate in terms of profit. A doctor can generate a lot of profit for a hospital. A dentist can as well. Same goes for an engineer, especially in the energy industry where finding a new well or enhancing production has a large payoff. Tax lawyers who are able to reduce a large corporate income tax bill get paid their weight in gold. The problem with aviation is the razor thin margin, and a large pool of low time pilots (since it doesnt take too long to get a CPL, unlike other professions - no barriers to entry). We dont see many engineering or law firms going out of business but we see many airlines struggling or going bankrupt. I dont think it's so much the fact pilots are stepping on each other in the beginning years, as much as it is the airlines dont have excess funds to pay higher wages.

[teacher]

Because entry level Engineers have a sense of self worth, and feel that after paying for an education, they are entitled to a job that pays better than the Canadian minimum wage, which is over $20K per year.

+1 IFP^^^^ It's not just the number of Pilots out there, as there are lots of jobs where supply exceeds demand. It is however that they wont accept a sub par wage or there is a good union/association (I know good union to some is an oxymoron) that wont let people work for low wage. Some people have standards.

These two statements say a lot. It doesn't matter how many people there are, only how much they're willing to work for. I've spoken to a lot of people in different fields who make way more and are treated way better. The statement they always use is "I get paid what I do because that is the wage I demand or expect". Simple, companies pay what they have to not what they want. If people passed on these great flying jobs that payed nothing the pay offered would go up. Problem is, and I've been there years ago, we, like, mentioned above, jump over each other for these jobs.

[Rockie]

[quote="dazednconfused"

Nobody has mentioned something along the lines of you are paid what you generate in terms of profit.[/quote]

If that were the case all but a tiny fraction of airline executives and CEO's would be living in a cardboard box and eating at the local church kitchen. And justifiably so.

[Tanker299]

Teachers are such a job where qualified and well educated people are not in short supply. My GF applied for a position in the communities where there was 8 other people looking for the same job, and in YXY you can forget about finding a job as everyone wants to work there. Her wage her first year (with one year somewhere else at 65k fresh out of school)was 69k and 2nd year is 75k plus a 4k signing bonus. Last year there were 3 fully qualified teachers doing sub work or being an EA. Oh and everywhere but YXY housing is usually provided. As you will notice on the grid 61k is the lowest you can earn, and I dont know many first year flying jobs that pay 61k even in the north.

http://www.psc.gov.yk.ca/pdf/teachers_p ... 1_2011.pdf

[snowball]

The supply and demand rule is very general. Many tomes the theory does not apply. If you go buy an iphone 5 and its the last one the have and there is a huge backorder for them does that mean that last iphone 5 on the shelf jumps up a hundred bucks? Nope. On the other end of the spectrum, why are apple products so expensive? Is there a shortage of the product? Nope. That is what apple commands for a price and retailers have a tolerance on lowering the price because Apple wont allow it. Same with Bose. They know what they are worth and command a price or them. If pilots were the same the same situation would apply. Pilots are the most short sighted individuals I have ever seen. Boggles my mind. As for jobs, many here have made their point and the supply and demand is out the door.

[iflyforpie]

The supply and demand rule is very general. Many tomes the theory does not apply. If you go buy an iphone 5 and its the last one the have and there is a huge backorder for them does that mean that last iphone 5 on the shelf jumps up a hundred bucks? Nope. On the other end of the spectrum, why are apple products so expensive? Is there a shortage of the product? Nope. That is what apple commands for a price and retailers have a tolerance on lowering the price because Apple wont allow it. Same with Bose. They know what they are worth and command a price or them. If pilots were the same the same situation would apply. Pilots are the most short sighted individuals I have ever seen. Boggles my mind. As for jobs, many here have made their point and the supply and demand is out the door.

The difference is that they are products that are marketed at a price. If you said something was going to be $500 in your keynote and commercials and other advertising, you'd lose a lot of customers by jacking up the price just because it was selling well. However, you do see lots of scalpers on eBay doing just that.

For services, this has been done for years. Yield Management makes the people who want the service on a certain day booked a certain time in advance much more expensive than somebody who doesn't care. Hotels and Airlines live by Yield Management.

For wages, it still follows the same principle though not quite as radical as Yield Management. Employers who can't find or keep qualified personnel have to pay a premium to attract them. There is no shortage of < 2000 hour pilots out there so you pay wages low enough to compensate for the continued attrition.

As far as being paid by profit generated... it doesn't work. As a pilot, I make the company money. As an AME, I cost the company money.

[Canadian Skyhawk]

It is indeed strictly about supply and demand. That's why a Tim Hortons clerk makes 16$+ an hour in Northern mining communities, but only minimum wage in a large ciity. It's not because they have higher self esteem up North, simply that there's a smaller pool of people wanting to work at Tim's when they could be making 25$ an hour as a janitor in a mining camp.

I am both a professional engineer and a CPL. In my part of the country, freshly minted engineers make about 52K per annum (more if you go up North). I decided to fly airplanes for a living, so I am making 23K as a King Air FO (plus per diems). And there's plenty of guys who would love to take my flying job. Ther's not so many qualified engineers looking for work. It's simply supply and demand.

By the way, we're not the only "profession" which is starving to pursue a passion. Just ask any interior designer, fashion designer, etc. Most have done two year college degrees and earn minimum wage.

[Meatservo]

Quite so. Despite all the people who seem to like to compare being a pilot to being a doctor or an accountant or teacher or truck driver, or whatever, I sometimes look at it as being more like being a professional mariner on the one hand and an actor or pro sport guy on the other. In acting, you get young starry-eyed kids moving to cities where the big production houses are, waiting tables, framing houses, or even turning tricks, just to stay alive until a "break" happens, which could be something shitty like a commercial but is still regarded as a step in the right direction. Some of these guys, the ones with the luck, or the looks, or rarely, even maybe the actual talent, hit the jackpot and get one of the high-paying gigs. But there are plenty of guys from the old casting-couch days that got swept under the rug or decided to get a more mundane but safer source of income. If you think working on the ramp is bad, try doing hand-model commercials or being the "brand power" chick while you're waiting for that sitcom to call you.

While I know little about pro sports, I imagine it's similar in that there are a lot of people who want to be on the team, and you've got to be either better, or luckier than almost all of them to get a shot at the big money.

There are a lot of people out there who want a "fun" job who are willing to eat a lot of humble pie in order to get there. In order for things to change for us pilots, we all have to agree on pain of death to never let on that we actually like aeroplanes, or that we actually want to fly them.

[co-joe]

First off Engineer is not a trade, it's a profession. Think blue collar vs white collar.

Trades involve working with your hands and head, no sitting at desks, no fancy offices, or suits. Just tools, prints (written by engineers), and hard work. Trades people make from 40k a year up to around 80k for a J-man. The money goes way up from there if you are willing to go to Ft Mac. Engineers should start in the middle thereabouts but should go well into 6 figures I would think.

Pilot to trades person is a good comparison on many levels, however as stated, the supply and demand balance is far more tilted in favour of the experienced trade worker than the equally skilled pilot. That's part of the reason you collect EI while in trade school, get free government grants to help and completion grants when finished.

Engineers don't get any of that either. They either have rich parents, scholarships, or go eyeball deep in debt to fund a degree before looking for that first job.

[tripleseven]

I think this hits the nail on the head:

The other problem is that engineering firms know that people make them money, aircraft owners think airplanes make them money. People are just the cost of running the airplanes, so if you can keep your costs down....

[akoch]

Engineers don't get any of that either. They either have rich parents, scholarships, or go eyeball deep in debt to fund a degree before looking for that first job.

Or have neither of that but happened to receive their education in one of the European countries where it is/was free.

And risking criticism I would note that 6 years at a University going through all that stuff is a bit harder work than getting your ATPL. For that matter all I know that it was only 11 in my groups of kids who made it through from the 63 who started in the first year. 6 years of 5 days a week of 8:05am to 5pm lectures/classes/labs and preparation for the next day in the evening. I'm personally not surprised that these folks make over 100k/year as a norm. Or over 200k/year.

It was tough, but I think it was worth it. And it did not cost money, just lots of work and a lot of time.

[Colonel Sanders]

It is indeed strictly about supply and demand

No kidding. That's what sets the price of a commodity.

[shimmydampner]

And risking criticism I would note that 6 years at a University going through all that stuff is a bit harder work than getting your ATPL.

I agree with you, however try telling that to the many short-sighted children sitting in the right seat of aircraft who believe that it is outrageous that they have to get the tiniest amount of PIC time to get an ATPL.

[Colonel Sanders]

Had to dig back through my old logbooks, but when
I had my first ATPL signed off, I had over 1,350 hours
of PIC, day and night, single and multi-engine land.

Everyone is in such a slapdash, superficial hurry. And
they all want something for nothing. Gotta love that
sense of entitlement.

[iflyforpie]

I've got well over 1500 PIC (including some seaplane time!) and no ATPL. I've got much better things to spend a few grand on than getting redundant tests and renewing my instrument rating that I haven't used in 8 years....