Air Canada LCC or WJ Encore

[NorthernTundra61]

If one had the choice between the two in the new year, which would you chose?

Not sure if I'm correct or not, but I believe all new hire Ac pilots go straight to the low cost carrier which is not technically air Canada.

WJ encore will probably start with lower wages but could possibly end up well compensated with great job security, along with a future seat at mainline.

Just curious what everyone is thinking.

Thanks

[600RVR]

If one had the choice between the two in the new year, which would you chose?

Not sure if I'm correct or not, but I believe all new hire Ac pilots go straight to the low cost carrier which is not technically air Canada.

WJ encore will probably start with lower wages but could possibly end up well compensated with great job security, along with a future seat at mainline.

Just curious what everyone is thinking.

Thanks

Depends on what your end game is. At the Air Canada LCC you you hold an ACPA seniority number. You have bidding rights at the LCC and Air Canada mainline. As of now new hires can go mainline or LCC it all depends on vacancies and what they choose to do. You are hired by Air Canada you are an Air Canada pilot.

As for the Westjet connector you get to fly a big prop plane with a chance to get hired on a flow through to Westjet mainline. I don't think you are guaranteed a postion on the 737. You could end up flying a Dash 8 400 for the rest of your career. Which if that's what you want then great you made the right choice.

How much movement will Air Canada and Westjet have in the next 5 10 15 years. Westjet is a young company with young pilots, not much in retirements. Fleet growth? Who knows. At Air Canada still hiring. Retirements will be slowed with the new contract. 787s next year with more movement. No matter what anyone says Air Canada is a great place to work and as my buddies say so is Westjet.

Like I said said depends on what your end game is. I'm willing to bet if you asked most Air Canada pilots hired within the last 7 years they applied to both Air Canada and Westjet. The same goes for those hired at Westjet. It's just who you get called or hired from first. Your sucess at either company depends on what attitude you bring. If you have any experience in this industry changes happen good or bad. Its always very easy to get caught up in the B.S. that goes on at any company. How you deal with it is up to you. At the end of the Day I get a min of 14 days off a month, fly a nice airplane, go to some great places, fly with some really great guys from all walks of Aviation. Then you go home on your days off and forget about work. You can get this at either company. Good luck


600RVR

[The Raven]

All new hires at Air Canada go on the ACPA seniority list. You may not end up at the LCC, but go to mainline right away. However, I would assume that most new hires will end up at LCC for a few years anyway. There are currently some First Officers at mainline that will bid Captain positions at LCC. This will free up some spots at mainline.

The bottom line is that you are on the ACPA seniority list. As the years go by, you are free to move back and forth between mainline and LCC depending on your seniority at the time. Just because you start out at LCC doesn't mean you will stay there.

[av8ts]

Skyregional has a growing fleet of aircraft that are either owned or leased by Air Canada that are flown, maintained, and dispatched by cheap non-unionized labour. I think that makes them ACs LCC.

[haironfire]

Sky Regional is so cheap I think they are Air Canada's "No Cost Carrier"

[NorthernTundra61]

Thanks for the response guys.

Rvr 600 thank you also for the informative post. Nice to hear that AC is still a great place to work. Unfortunately you hear so much negativity in the press and on these forums, that you second guess yourself on wether its still a good place to be.

Just a few more questions if you don't mind,

1. If one were to commute from the east coast, on average how many trips a month would you have to make to YYZ if that was your base? I realize your sked is base on seniority, but could you put together a decent stretch of working days to maximize time at home? I.e week on week off

2. What's the going rate for flight passes for commuters? How much do you pay a month for passes?

3. I realize the pension has changed for new hires. Just wondering if its still a decent pension, and how much is the company contributing these days. Is it a percentage of what the employee(pilot) contributes?

4. Would a new hire be working every Xmas for the foreseeable future?
Thank you
NT

[600RVR]

Thanks for the response guys.

Rvr 600 thank you also for the informative post. Nice to hear that AC is still a great place to work. Unfortunately you hear so much negativity in the press and on these forums, that you second guess yourself on wether its still a good place to be.

Just a few more questions if you don't mind,

1. If one were to commute from the east coast, on average how many trips a month would you have to make to YYZ if that was your base? I realize your sked is base on seniority, but could you put together a decent stretch of working days to maximize time at home? I.e week on week off

2. What's the going rate for flight passes for commuters? How much do you pay a month for passes?

3. I realize the pension has changed for new hires. Just wondering if its still a decent pension, and how much is the company contributing these days. Is it a percentage of what the employee(pilot) contributes?

4. Would a new hire be working every Xmas for the foreseeable future?
Thank you
NT

1) I commute from the East Coast. I average 2-3 commutes a month. There are many different ways to bid your schedule to limit commutes. For me I don't really care where I fly, days off is all I care about. I normally do a stretch of 7-8 days of work followed by 7-8 days off. Most times it works sometimes you might end up with 2-3 days off between flying. I can also bid to layover at home if I choose.

2) going rate well that depends where you commute from. We have our service charges add back on so it varies from place to place. Also jumpseat with Westjet which sadly is cheaper than traveling on our own airline. And for that matter anyone jumpseating with AC travel cheaper than their own employees.

3) as for pension it depends how you look at it. It's not as generous as the DB pension. I'm not sure about company contributions. But one good thing about the DC pensions is that if things go off the rails layed off, quit ect you can take you pension and run. Your not tied to the company like the rest of us. Basically they have us by the balls.

4) as for working Christmas. Sorry man that's the nature of the beast when it comes to a seniority system. The LCC will have a socialized bidding system like Westjet where you rotate holidays ( I think that's how they do it) as for AC one thing to remember is you can have MONEY or LIFE Stlye you can't have both until you get some seniority. If life style is what your after you can stay senior on a smaller airplane until you have enough seniority to give you what you want on a bigger airplane. ( I think I have myself confused now)

600RVR

[snowball]

Sky Regional is so cheap I think they are Air Canada's "No Cost Carrier"

Scabs

[Maxpwr]

Scabs???

Ok I'll just forward my bills to your address. If you don't mind, I'd prefer if you paid the mortgage first.

[Mig29]

Scabs???

Ok I'll just forward my bills to your address. If you don't mind, I'd prefer if you paid the mortgage first.

Well....to a point, I must interject.

You say you have to pay the mortgage, but the argument may come back and 'bite' you 5-10 years from now, when the jobs given to Sky result in lay-offs of AC/Jazz pilots, if they don't agree to the new terms set by their companies (to stay competitive). If they agree to lower pay to match Sky's or Encore's then that also may mean a loss of ability to pay or even get a mortgage for some guys. Some may be forced to bump down to right seat, since the flying is reduced...trickle down effect. Hard to imagine at this point....but it's already happening to some people.

Encore may end up doing this to their own WJ colleagues....just give it some time. Jazz/Porter/Sky will not be their only target....time will tell.

[snowball]

Scabs???

Ok I'll just forward my bills to your address. If you don't mind, I'd prefer if you paid the mortgage first.

And that everyone is the number one excuse as to why our "professions" are going downhill. There are lots of companies that probably just as good as SR and about 1/3 the size of plane. Heck I know 1900 pilots making 70k. but some pilots are just too focused on the shortcut and taking the bigger iron for less pay. Hope you have kids that want to be pilots because you just paved the way for their 45k a year left seat EMB capt pay when they get to be your age.

[Takeoff OK]

To the OP:

Do not compare Westjet's feeder to AC LCC. They are nowhere near being on the same level. If, as you say, you will have the choice to go to either one, you would be an absolute fool to choose Encore. Anyone who has spent any significant time in the 705/121 "airline" game will tell you this: Never, ever, EVER, choose a feeder over a mainline gig.

Understand this: Westjet is changing. Their domestic expansion is reaching saturation. To please shareholders with some form of growth they are launching Encore. It may work, but likely will be an overall money loser for them in the long run. The only other way to expand is widebody, which will introduce an entirely new operating/cost structure. This is a gamble that even Southwest (Westjet's conceptual creator) is not willing to touch, for very good reasons. The glory days of growth are coming to an end at Westjet, and with such a young crewlist you are looking at massive stagnation over the next 20 to 30 years. Do not discount the significance of this.

Back to my original point, though: AC LCC is a mainline gig. Encore is a feeder. Flow or not, you will be sacrificing years of potential, with quite possibly no reward in the end.

There is no choice here.

(No, I don't work for AC.)

[Takeoff OK]

Sky Regional is so cheap I think they are Air Canada's "No Cost Carrier"

Scabs

Not only does the term "scab" not apply here, but your are diminishing the importance of the word -- not to mention painting yourself as a moron.

God forbid the day comes that you need to (and are able to) strike, and somebody crosses the picket line to do your "struck work". Then you will know the meaning of the word "scab".

Idiot.

(No, I don't work for Sky.)

[snowball]

Sky Regional is so cheap I think they are Air Canada's "No Cost Carrier"

Scabs

Not only does the term "scab" not apply here, but your are diminishing the importance of the word -- not to mention painting yourself as a moron.

God forbid the day comes that you need to (and are able to) strike, and somebody crosses the picket line to do your "struck work". Then you will know the meaning of the word "scab".

Idiot.

(No, I don't work for Sky.)

I clearly know what a scab is. The fine line that doesn't make SR "official" scabs is the fact our defunct govt took away AC's right to strike. The fact is SR pilots are making the whole problem worse for pilots. Argue it all you want. I am right. You are wrong.

[Takeoff OK]

I clearly know what a scab is. The fine line that doesn't make SR "official" scabs is the fact our defunct govt took away AC's right to strike. The fact is SR pilots are making the whole problem worse for pilots. Argue it all you want. I am right. You are wrong.

No, it is not a fine line differentiation Sky pilots from scabs. You are attacking their character because you don't like AC's hulls being outsourced. Well, NOBODY likes AC's hulls being outsourced, but that doesn't make the people who will fly them scabs.

I think the word you are looking for is "scumbags", which should be used to describe the real people at fault for this: The Harper Government, AC senior management, and the former ACPA MEC that allowed Sky Regional to come into existence in the first place.

By the way, saying you are right does not make it so.

[loopy]

Aren't most, if not all of Jazz's aircraft owned by AC as well? Do you label them scabs. Oh sorry, they are unionized. Give SR a year or too, and they will be too.

We may not like some of the tricks AC management has pulled, or the way the Harper Junta does business, undermining labour rights, but the fact of the matter is the airline business is competetive and has small margins. Companies will always try to find ways to be more efficient. Sometimes you get a paradigm shift a la Southwest or Westjet, starting with a clean slate, a comp[letely different approach to the business. Sometimes it's someone seeing an opportunity, ie Skyservice and AC management. How is the beginning of SR that different from the beginning of Jazz or the assortment of companies they used to be? In a competitive world, change and evolution are inevitable. And taxes. And death. And at some point another liberal gov't. And several years after, another Tory gov't. What was the topic?

[Mig29]

Not trying to get between insulting-pissing match between you too guys, but I will give you a credit for the below quote. Well said! Now keep it civil folks

I think the word you are looking for is "scumbags", which should be used to describe the real people at fault for this: The Harper Government, AC senior management, and the former ACPA MEC that allowed Sky Regional to come into existence in the first place.

Aren't most, if not all of Jazz's aircraft owned by AC as well?

No they are not. In fact all the Q400 are owned by Chorus leasing company. As for the rest of the fleet, it's a mix.

Oh sorry, they are unionized. Give SR a year or too, and they will be too.

I hope so, but look at Porter...how long have they have been non-unionized??????

How is the beginning of SR that different from the beginning of Jazz or the assortment of companies

Jazz always existed in one shape of form, because all these regionals (Air Ontario, Nova, BC, Alliance or Canadian Reg) were around for many, many years before Jazz was formed. Yes, granted, some were competing against each other, but many were partners and work for either team Red or Blue. They all fought and played in the regional marked playground, not infringing on their "mother companies".

Until Jazz received their first CRJ from AC....

[Far]

I hope SR will unionize, cause without payscale, it doesn't make sense.

[Taxi]

Hmmm, second year of existence for SR and still not unionize, and they don't have payscale yet !!