Dry and Wet Leases, and the grey zones in between

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Gilles Hudicourt
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Dry and Wet Leases, and the grey zones in between

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

They are several ways for a company to lease aircraft. The most common is dry-lease. Many large airlines do not own their aircraft and lease all or most of their fleets from large Leasing companies such as ILFC and CIT. The lessee then has to maintain the aircraft, crew it and insure it.

There are instances when an airline will lease an aircraft from another airline. If only the aircraft is provided, and the lessee supplies its own crews, maintenance and insurance for the aircraft it is also called a dry lease.

Whether an aircraft is leased from a leasing company or an airline, in Canada, a leased aircraft will normally have to be registered in the name of the lessee. There are instances where Transport Canada will allow the leased aircraft to remain registered under the name of the lessor, even when it is foreign registered. These conditions are listed under CAR 203 which limits the number of aircraft in the lessee's fleet that remain registered in the name of the lessor, and the length of time such aircraft can remain registered under the name of the lessor. There are also several other conditions including a very important one which states that the crews flying the aircraft must be employees of the lessee. I'll get to why that is important later. Here the appropriate CAR:
203.03 (1) No person who is not the registered owner of an aircraft shall operate the aircraft as part of a leasing operation without an authorization issued pursuant to subsection (2) unless
(d) the crew members of the aircraft are employed by the lessee
In the United States, there have been court cases to determine whether a lease was a wet lease or a fry lease. Here is why. When a lessee dry-leases an aircraft from an airline, and then contracts out pilots from that same airline to fly the dry-leased aircraft, it looks like a wet-lease in disguise. The FAA calls such leases "Sham Dry-Leases".

https://www.conklindd.com/Print.aspx?hid=1184
“Sham” Dry Lease – would be an example of someone trying to confuse the issue as to who has control of the aircraft. The typical case is where the lessor is providing the aircraft under a dry lease and is also providing the crew under a separate agreement. Another example would be where the lessor is leasing you the aircraft, but you have to get your crew from the lessor or a specified source. In both cases the plane and the crew are too closely connected. In the case of a “sham” dry lease or “damp” lease the FAA may take the position that the lessor should hold a commercial operating certificate.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/hea ... nson-2.pdf
Whether the crew is truly independent and the lease arrangement is a dry lease would be determined on a case-by-case basis. See Legal Interpretation to Douglas; Legal Interpretation to Fabian (stating that a pattern of evidence may show a wet lease exists if parties are "acting in concert" to furnish an aircraft and crew). As such, the answers to your questions, discussed below, would inform whether the lease agreements in your scenario constitute a dry or wet lease.
It is specifically to avoid muddying the waters between a real dry-lease and a wet-lease disguised at a dry-lease, that in Canada, the CAR require that when a aircraft is dry-leased and remains registered in the name of the lessor, the crew members of the aircraft must be employed by the lessee.

Last year, Sunwing dry-leased five B-737-800s from Thomson and these aircraft remained on the UK registration as allowed by CAR 203. However, in violation of CAR 203.03 (1) (d), Thomson Airways, the owner of the five aircraft, also provided the crews to fly these same aircraft to Sunwing. The aircraft and the crews are very closely connected in this case. I don't think that FAA would have accepted such a cozy arrangement south of the border.

To make matters worse in Canada, the Thomson pilots who, although they were in possession of Canadian work permits, allowing them to "Work" for Sunwing, acted just like Wet-Lease pilots, as they continued, while flying for Sunwing, to be employed by Thomson Airways, continued, as Wet-Lease pilots to collect their pay in the UK, and as Wet-Lease pilots, failed to apply for SIN and declare their Canadian income to the CRA.

Let's see if this year, our Transport Canada Inspectors will straighten this mess out.
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Dry and Wet and Leases, and the grey zones in between

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ea306
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Re: Dry and Wet and Leases, and the grey zones in between

Post by ea306 »

Still a dry lease Gilles.

Yes some of the aircraft remained under their foreign registration as provided for by the CAR as you explained. Having some experience in this from a past life of long ago... An air carrier can dry lease an aircraft from out of Canada Registry for a limited period of time and also from what I recall, there is also a limit of the amount of aircraft that will be allowed on an AOC depending on the amount of remaining aircraft that are on the Canadian Registry. All good there.

The Thomson crews that came over to operate for Sunwing all were trained and given PPCs & License Validations. While operating aircraft under SWG operational control these crews were not able to operate Thomson aircraft for Thomson. They became Sunwing Pilots. As Sunwing Pilots they only operate Sunwing aircraft in the exact same manner as every other Sunwing Pilot which also included the Thomson Aircraft that remained under G Registry but on SunWing's AOC and SunWing's operational control.

This damp leasing you speak of does not apply in anyway at all in what has been happening here at Sunwing.

I appreciate the reciprocal 1 - 1 issue and fully agree with that. But what you are drawing attention to here simply has not happened as you are presenting and does not apply.

Operational control of dry leased aircraft is sole responsibility of Sunwing to maintain in accordance with its AOC. All aircraft are on the AOC (both C reg & G reg) and all pilots flying them are exclusively Sunwing Pilots who have completed all aspects of the training requirements as prescribed by the Sunwing Training Syllabus as approved by Transport Canada.

Wet Lease aircraft are under operational control of the contracted company and are operated by their own pilots.

There is no Damp Lease going on here and you can be certain that Transport Canada are equally as interested in overseeing Commercial Aviation in Canada as the FAA is in the USA.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Dry and Wet Leases, and the grey zones in between

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Well this post was an attempt to explain the rationale behind CAR 203.03 (1) (d).
No person who is not the registered owner of an aircraft shall operate the aircraft as part of a leasing operation without an authorization issued pursuant to subsection (2) unless the crew members of the aircraft are employed by the lessee
All CAR are written for a reason and none can be overlooked on whim. One also cannot twist a simple word like "employed" and turn it into something it is clearly not.

There also a Standard that goes with it: 223.03
Standard 223 - Operation of a Leased Aircraft by a Non-registered Owner

An application from a Canadian air operator for an authorization referred to in subsection 203.03(2) of the Canadian Aviation Regulations permitting the operation of a leased aircraft shall meet the following requirements:

(3) A Canadian Air Operator that is Operating under Part IV, VI or VII and that Leases an Aircraft Registered in a Foreign State

(d) the lessee provides the Minister with evidence establishing that the aircraft crew members are in the employ of the lessee;
So tell me my friend, for in your reply you avoided all reference to the CAR, were the British Thomson pilot working for and paid by Thomson in the UK also "employed" by Sunwing in Canada and "at the employ of the lessee" ?

We'll see what TC will rule on this subject this year. They overlook certain things sometimes you know, when they are not provided all the information. Like that Slovak 737 earlier this month. But when it is pointed out publicly, they must rule according to what is written, and the written word this time is "employed".
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
ea306
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Re: Dry and Wet and Leases, and the grey zones in between

Post by ea306 »

Just to be clear,

-All SWG Pilots operate all SWG aircraft under dry lease.
-SWG pilots are under SWG operational control as are the Dry Lease aircraft.

In this respect they are all "employed by" SWG.
How they are paid is another matter, whether they are CAW or Contractors (Canadian or Overseas).
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Dry and Wet and Leases, and the grey zones in between

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

ea306 wrote:Just to be clear,

-All SWG Pilots operate all SWG aircraft under dry lease.
-SWG pilots are under SWG operational control as are the Dry Lease aircraft.

In this respect they are all "employed by" SWG.
How they are paid is another matter, whether they are CAW or Contractors (Canadian or Overseas).
I just can't wait to see what two step dance they will do to convince TC that they are "employed" by Sunwing while at the same time convincing Revenue Canada that they are "employed" by Thomson. This should prove exciting.
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
ea306
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Re: Dry and Wet and Leases, and the grey zones in between

Post by ea306 »

Gilles,

If they change the registration to Canadian... Does that change your line of reasoning? This is my point. Whether the registration is changed or the same; it is dry leased. The crews are not operating under Thomson. They are operating under SWG with SWG SOP and operational control etc. that is my point.

You are hanging your argument on an interpretation of what "employed" is from Transport Canada's perspective might be vs. CRA.

You are saying that the "waters are muddied" by the foreign reg and also because they send their pilots under contract to SWG and thus in violation with CAR and the Standard.

Yes it will be interesting to see how it all washes out.
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OPEC6-Heavy
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Re: Dry and Wet Leases, and the grey zones in between

Post by OPEC6-Heavy »

Gilles,

Keep digging my friend...Because of Dry lease, SWG employs more Canadian pilots all year round, out side of our core fleet. You can spin all you want, Wet lease, Dry lease whatever. With Transat benefiting from both, including A330 "TSN" going to XL France last season and 4-5 Wet-lease A330's to Garuda Airlines ( C-GGTS,C-GITS,C-GPTS ,C-GTSR ) this leans your arguments to be hypocritical in nature. The financial benefits are massive to your company and completely one-sided in favor of TS (which is great), so don't knock it.
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ea306
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Re: Dry and Wet Leases, and the grey zones in between

Post by ea306 »

http://www.cit.com/about-cit/thought-le ... /index.htm


This video describes the dry lease arrangements Sunwing has been using long before the foreign pilot issue.
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Tiny Tyke
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Re: Dry and Wet Leases, and the grey zones in between

Post by Tiny Tyke »

A couple of issues here:

1) Is Transport Canada happy with the arrangement?

2) Is CRA happy with arrangement?

3) If they are required to be employees of Sunwing they can't be contractors. Being a contractor implies that you are running your own business. Something that is often mistaken. If these pilots are foreigners,are they entitled to operate a personal business in Canada??

Interesting issue. From what you presented Gilles, it seems like the US has its ducks in order while Canada has left the door open for interpretation.
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oh yeah baby
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Re: Dry and Wet Leases, and the grey zones in between

Post by oh yeah baby »

OPEC6-Heavy wrote:Gilles,

Keep digging my friend...Because of Dry lease, SWG employs more Canadian pilots all year round, out side of our core fleet. You can spin all you want, Wet lease, Dry lease whatever. With Transat benefiting from both, including A330 "TSN" going to XL France last season and 4-5 Wet-lease A330's to Garuda Airlines ( C-GGTS,C-GITS,C-GPTS ,C-GTSR ) this leans your arguments to be hypocritical in nature. The financial benefits are massive to your company and completely one-sided in favor of TS (which is great), so don't knock it.
OPEC6-Heavy wrote:Gilles,



You are mixing apples and oranges (they are both round but they taste different)...

First It is on a different scale : 5/22 during 3 month for Transat as oppose to 18/6 (I suppose) during 5 month for Sunwing

Secondly XL or Garuda is not own by Transat or vice versa so nobody is dumping aircraft on a market at lower cost to hurt the competition like TUI...we are negotiating fair contract between two independent company which make a huge difference...

Third : We live in Canada were there is enough pilot to meet the demand and we are develop enough to provide and protect our own pilot unlike Indonesia.

The XL and Garuda contract might look like the same for outside people but you and i know it is a different story....
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ea306
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Re: Dry and Wet Leases, and the grey zones in between

Post by ea306 »

Perhaps the use of the word "contractor" is not the best way to describe them as they are not individual contractors per se, but employed through a contract company....or maybe companies??

The Canadian "contractors" are paid through a different entity created by Sunwing. Good and Bad..
Good: Canadian Pilots getting employment
Bad: CAW7378 does not like that these fine individuals are not on our seniority list.
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OPEC6-Heavy
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Re: Dry and Wet Leases, and the grey zones in between

Post by OPEC6-Heavy »

oh yeah baby,
Secondly XL or Garuda is not own by Transat or vice versa so nobody is dumping aircraft on a market at lower cost to hurt the competition like TUI...we are negotiating fair contract between two independent company which make a huge difference...
Where does this theory of dumping aircraft come from? There is NO dumping... It's in your dreams. Read the CTA decision that Gilles posted about Sunwing. It clearly states that this is not happening, if it was happening well guess what, the CTA would not have decided in favor of Sunwing on this issue.
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oh yeah baby
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Re: Dry and Wet Leases, and the grey zones in between

Post by oh yeah baby »

There is a difference between not been able to prove and not doing it... Do you really think Sunwing opened their books and showed every transaction.. i have my doubt...

Anyways you are hopeless.... What can you say to convince someone who is drinving on the opposite side of the highway thinking that everybody outside his car is wrong...
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OPEC6-Heavy
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Re: Dry and Wet Leases, and the grey zones in between

Post by OPEC6-Heavy »

oh yeah baby,
Do you really think Sunwing opened their books and showed every transaction
My assumption is the CTA performs an Audit to determine these types of questions. I don't think they are that naive to just take someones word for it. But you might be right, Sunwing is hiding TUI transactions. Anythings possible.
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