Canadian Govt to sell off 4 of their 6 Challenger VIP jets

[bizjets101]

Defence Minister Peter MacKay states they are selling four of their six Challenger VIP jets.

Challenger Info

[amraam]

Bizjets101,

Just curious what your source is for the proposed sale.

Looks like four of the current six are still either CL 600 or CL 601 models.

144601 (MSN 1040), 144614 (MSN 3036), 144615 (MSN 3037), 144616 (MSN 3038), 144617 (MSN 5533), 144618 (MSN 5535) are currently shown as being active on the following website:

http://www.ody.ca/~bwalker/CF_Challenger_detailed.html

144601 is a CL 600, 144614, 144615, 144616 are CL 601s, and the remaining two are CL 604s.

Perhaps Discovery Air will be on the hunt for a couple more low-hour CL 601s...

amramm

[bizjets101]

Source; Peter MacKay

I would imagine these are on the chopping block, I agree either a I.M.P. Company can pick
them up, probably cheap, or they might just end up scrapped.

144601 Challenger CL600S

144614 Challenger CL601

144615 Challenger CL601

144616 Challenger CL601

It's a little late for 144613 after it's accident;

[AllClutch]

I was once told by someone in the know that aircraft in Canadian military service would never see the civilian world again (exceptions being the Labrador helicopters which were given special C of A's).
His reasoning was that the military maintance standards and documentation is too far off the civilian equivalent and to make the paperwork acceptable alone would be cost prohibitive.

[13820]

I was once told by someone in the know that aircraft in Canadian military service would never see the civilian world again

I was under the same impression but I see KFC putting new engines and props on that old Cosmopolitan that has been at the south side of YYC forever. I wonder what they did to pull that off?

[linecrew]

I was once told by someone in the know that aircraft in Canadian military service would never see the civilian world again

I was under the same impression but I see KFC putting new engines and props on that old Cosmopolitan that has been at the south side of YYC forever. I wonder what they did to pull that off?

Also, some of the old CL-600s were sold to the civilian world. For example, this one used to be 144602:

[linecrew]

Source; Peter MacKay


It's a little late for 144613 after it's accident;

Do the remains of 613 still exist somewhere? Any idea what they're going to do with them?

[Heliian]

I was once told by someone in the know that aircraft in Canadian military service would never see the civilian world again

I was under the same impression but I see KFC putting new engines and props on that old Cosmopolitan that has been at the south side of YYC forever. I wonder what they did to pull that off?

Actually, the government finally figured out that if they use civil aircraft, they can sell them to the civil market afterwards. The CL600 series is civil, the buses are civil, the griffin helicopters are civil. These are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. The maintenance programs may differ from a commercial operator but it doesn't mean that its not sufficient to maintain the aircraft, in fact a good portion of the maintenance is done by contractors anyway.

[bizjets101]

Of the four Challengers, only one is owned? by the military, 601, and my guess
it is high time and old!!! We'll see if it's sold or scrapped??

The other three are owned by the Treasury, but operated by RCAF.

As for 144613, I think I emailed the Shearwater Museum before about it, but I can't remember?, what
they said - anyway I just emailed them again - see what they say??

[Nark]

Whats the story on 613?

[Whiskey25]

The remains of 613 were at 14 Wing Greenwood, Nova Scotia the last time I was there.

Nark,

613 crashed in Shearwater, NS while on a training flight in April 1995.

[longjon]

This may not be exact but 613 was training doing touch and goes, landed hard bounced and landed harder tore a main gear loose got airborn and lost the gear in the harbour, not sure it was ever recovered. APU was on so a fire resulted when the gear tore hyd lines on its way out, AC landed and crew got out with literally seconds to spare before dying a firey death. Ive got the newspaper article saved somewhere.

Heard Bombardier re routed the hyd lines after the accident so some good came out of it.

[iflyforpie]

I was once told by someone in the know that aircraft in Canadian military service would never see the civilian world again

I was under the same impression but I see KFC putting new engines and props on that old Cosmopolitan that has been at the south side of YYC forever. I wonder what they did to pull that off?

Actually, the government finally figured out that if they use civil aircraft, they can sell them to the civil market afterwards. The CL600 series is civil, the buses are civil, the griffin helicopters are civil. These are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. The maintenance programs may differ from a commercial operator but it doesn't mean that its not sufficient to maintain the aircraft, in fact a good portion of the maintenance is done by contractors anyway.

The Musketeers were civilian.. but weren't offered for sale to John Q Public because of their operational history and the liabilities associated with them. Too bad, because whoever designed the Musketeer must have worked at the Grumman Iron Works at some point.

As for KFC, they own the type design to all the 240/340/440 variants. KFC's Convair 5800 is actually a stretched military C-131... not a 580 or a 340/440.

[Shiny Side Up]

The Musketeers were civilian.. but weren't offered for sale to John Q Public because of their operational history and the liabilities associated with them. Too bad, because whoever designed the Musketeer must have worked at the Grumman Iron Works at some point.

Especially since those ones were sort of custom jobs for the military with the bigger engine and beefed up a little to do acro. They were all scrapped weren't they? Except for a few that ended up on pedestals here and there.

[mikecharlieoscar]

This may not be exact but 613 was training doing touch and goes, landed hard bounced and landed harder tore a main gear loose got airborn and lost the gear in the harbour, not sure it was ever recovered. APU was on so a fire resulted when the gear tore hyd lines on its way out, AC landed and crew got out with literally seconds to spare before dying a firey death. Ive got the newspaper article saved somewhere.

Heard Bombardier re routed the hyd lines after the accident so some good came out of it.

Close.

The aircraft was on a training trip to the east coast for pilot proficiency. It was an election year and the government had greatly reduced the flying time to reduce the negative press and ammo for the opposition parties. The pilots were attempting to finish their quarterly requirements and still needed a non precision approach, a circling approach and a flapless approach. They elected to do all three at once by flying the non precison to the crossing runway and circling (flapless) to the long runway (34). The approach was not stabilized and the first touchdown was quite firm and resulted in a high bounce. The second touchdown caused the rear bracket that holds the landing gear truneon pin to break. The aircraft went around after the second impact. The plane then stayed airborne for the best part of an hour to reduce fuel and get ready for the landing. While loitering, the gear truneon pin eventually worked its way out of the forward bracket and was left hanging for a period by the brake lines. The brake line eventually broke and the gear fell into the harbour (and in spite of having divers in the water for several days, it was never found) but before dropping off, the brake line cut its way through the fuel line to the right engine. The engine flamed out and the fuel line sprayed fuel through the APU exhaust stream and caught fire. The tower controller advised the crew that they were on fire almost simultaneously with the failure and they turned immediately to the runway.

The aircraft touched down on the centreline, stayed on the runway to about 100 knots then departed to the right side where it spun through 180 degrees and came to rest under the boundary fence. Fortunately, the ground was quite wet and soft and the CFR was immediately on scene. There was no significant post flight fire. The crew (4 total) walked away with no injuries.

[iflyforpie]

All of them were stressed +6/-3 AFAIK (ultimate 150% of those figures). I used to fly a Sundowner 180 and all of the mods required for it to do acro were non-structural

[Shiny Side Up]

Hmm, the one I flew noted that it had a different engine mount for doing acro, though now that I look at wiki, that might have also been just to upgrade it to the 180 hp B23 model from the 160hp one. Even the 180 hp seemed not enough for it, though it did do rolls nice.

Again from wiki, I wonder if its possible to get one of the ones donated to maintenance training shops up flying again. Anyone know where they are? Also seems wierd the the Canadian forces seem to favour throw away trainers increasingly. The Chipmunk was in service for 24 years(1948 to 1972), the Muskrat served for 10 years (1971 to 1981 for the first batch) and 11 years (1981-1992 second batch) for a total of 21 years of service; replaced by the Slingsby Firefly for 16 years (1992-2006) and currently the Grob 120A which as of yet hasa relatively short airframe life of only 15,000 hours, so we will probably get even less service from them. Getting less and less value for the money it would seem. Maybe we should go back to basics, Viking does have the type certificate for the DHC-1....

[Gravol]

I looked at each branch of the US forces and their VIP transports. A stink being created over 6 challenger jets.....

I do commend the Harper gov for cutting though.

[cyeg66]

^As do I. Perhaps they've noticed at the RCAF that their overall usage dropped about 75%+ since Adrienne Clarkson, Jean Cretin, and Paul Martin left their posts. Expensive taxis, they were back then......

[iflyforpie]

I always found it kind of ironic how as Finance Critic Jean Chretien lambasted Mulroney for his 'Flying Taj Mahal'; but then after he became PM he quietly fast-tracked new Challenger jets to replace ones less than 20 years old--all while the Forces were using 40 year old Sea Kings and Hercules.

[Gravol]

Shhhhhhhh, you're not allowed using facts when debating with the Liberals or NDP.

But seriously, it's 6 jets. The costs to keep them running are peanuts in the big picture.

I am still waiting for the CBC to cover the decrease in usage of these challenger jets under the Harper Gov.

On a side note , our new CDS recently stated some interesting remarks on the F35 program.