On-Line poll about the foreign pilot issue

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Trey Kule and OPEC6 both claim that after reading enough of these posts, it make one want to raise an angry mob to go burn foreign pilots at the stake or go tar and feather them. I think that if there is any anger out there, its not against the foreign pilots themselves but against those that make use of them or allow this to happen. So let's try a poll.

I have always said that I am for 1:1 reciprocity in the use of foreign pilots. That is, if a Canadian airline is able to send x number of pilots to work overseas, it should be allowed to import an equal number of foreign pilots to work in Canada for an equal period of time.

I also say, that we must either count ALL pilots, including the wet-lease pilots, or that we must not count the wet-lease pilots in either direction. That is if one airline counts the pilots it sends overseas on Wet-Leases towards fulfilling reciprocity agreements, we must also count the foreign pilots who come to work in Canada on Wet-Leases. If we only count the Canadian pilots who go work overseas on foreign registered aircraft, then we must only count the foreign pilots who come to Canada to fly Canadian registered aircraft. Apple and apples.

So when I write here that I am against foreign pilots, I mean I am against foreign pilots in numbers above what may be allowed in an equal reciprocity agreement. And this is what this poll is about. Let's see what the readers think.

You can only vote once. You can pick two choices.

[teacher]

You should add an option of "I support their use as long as it is in accordance with a fair, 100% reciprocal agreement."

[Gilles Hudicourt]

It reset the stats to zero when I modified the Poll but only 4 replies had been entered at that point. Those people can enter their replies again.

[OPEC6-Heavy]

Gilles,

I think Transat has done a great job in equalizing the playing field with regards to sending Canadian pilots overseas on Wet-lease. This may even help offset the total amount of Foreign pilot ratios coming to Canada in a 1 year period. Canadian vs. Foreigners, Apples vs Apples. What is the total number going to France and Malaysia this year? Around 6 A330's worth of crew over a 6 month period. I know it's only one sided, so their is no reciprocity. But this may help the balance for your Tax argument and maybe help a little with regards to Canadian employment numbers. I know its a different angle, not company specific but Canada wide. The total numbers would be interesting.

This Poll must be accurate within 3%, 19 times out of 20.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Gilles,

I think Transat has done a great job in equalizing the playing field with regards to sending Canadian pilots overseas on Wet-lease. This may even help offset the total amount of Foreign pilot ratios coming to Canada in a 1 year period. Canadian vs. Foreigners, Apples vs Apples. What is the total number going to France and Malaysia this year? Around 6 A330's worth of crew over a 6 month period. I know it's only one sided, so their is no reciprocity. But this may help the balance for your Tax argument and maybe help a little with regards to Canadian employment numbers. I know its a different angle, not company specific but Canada wide. The total numbers would be interesting.

This Poll must be accurate within 3%, 19 times out of 20.

Wet-lease pilots don't count as far as I am concerned. The Air Transat pilots who go overseas to fly Air Transat aircraft for Air Transat are employed by no one else but Air Transat and should not and cannot possibly count as fulfilling the reciprocity obligations against foreign pilots who come to Canada to fly Canadian registered aircraft for a Canadian airline.

Are you Mr Hunter? You sure have all his arguments.

[fasken]

Gilles,

I think Transat has done a great job in equalizing the playing field with regards to sending Canadian pilots overseas on Wet-lease. This may even help offset the total amount of Foreign pilot ratios coming to Canada in a 1 year period. Canadian vs. Foreigners, Apples vs Apples. What is the total number going to France and Malaysia this year? Around 6 A330's worth of crew over a 6 month period. I know it's only one sided, so their is no reciprocity. But this may help the balance for your Tax argument and maybe help a little with regards to Canadian employment numbers. I know its a different angle, not company specific but Canada wide. The total numbers would be interesting.

This Poll must be accurate within 3%, 19 times out of 20.

Wet-lease pilots don't count as far as I am concerned. The Air Transat pilots who go overseas to fly Air Transat aircraft for Air Transat are employed by no one else but Air Transat and should not and cannot possibly count as fulfilling the reciprocity obligations against foreign pilots who come to Canada to fly Canadian registered aircraft for a Canadian airline.

Are you Mr Hunter? You sure have all his arguments.

Gilles,

You just contradicted yourself. First post you state that we should count all pilots (both wet and dry) or don't count wet in either direction.
Now you say wet leases shouldn't count as far as you are concerned. I think the only fair way is to count all pilots. Wet and dry. Industry wide. So Transat wet leases abroad should count. Canadian pilots are working overseas, which is good. Sunwing pilots working overseas, wet or dry, good. If there are more Canadian pilots working for a Canadian airline overseas than there are non resident pilots working in Canada, then this type of policy is good for Canadian pilots. If not, it is not. I agree with 1:1, but not in the limited way you are applying it. If Canada stops allowing any foreign pilots in (wet or dry), then other countries will start to do the same to us. That might lead to more layoffs if France and Malaysia and others follow suit. Stopping Sunwing might actually hurt Transat. I don't know, but I believe that over the last 10 years, Canadian pilots have been the winners here.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I didn't contradict myself.

I said that as far as I (me Gilles Hudicourt) am concerned, wet-lease pilots should not count in either direction.

Sunwing, however, has been counting the pilots it sends overseas on wet-leases as fulfilling their obligations to CIC on reciprocity.

I say that if CIC accepts that argument (which I do not agree with), that they should also count all foreign pilots who come to work in Canada on wet-leases for Sunwing. There were at least 80 to 90 of those in 2012 alone, not counting the dry-lease foreign pilots......

The problem in Canada is that because foreign pilots who come on Wet-Leases do not need work permits and don't go through CIC to come to Canada, how can CIC, which administers reciprocity, control the program ? They do not know about the foreign pilots who come here on wet-leases.

Sunwing has 10 permanent year round aircraft. For several years, they have been sending 3 aircraft in Europe on wet-leases and sent 4 aircraft this past summer. If sending wet-leases back in forth was the way to do reciprocity, Sunwing would have been allowed to bring in 3 extra foreign 737s the previous years, and 4 737s this winter.

Yet this summer they wet-leased 2 B-767s from Europe and are bringing in 19 B-737s this winter, for a total of 21 foreign aircraft.

They send 4 aircraft to Europe for 6 months and in "RECIPROCITY" they bring in 21 aircraft from Europe for 6 months.

Anyone who just decides to merely open their eyes will have a full and complete understanding of what is really going on here.

And "they" let it happen. What am I missing ?

[Jean-Luc Monette]

It seems that many posters here give their opinion without reading about all the facts... rather, they respond to the last post in the thread as if they have all the information needed to engage the OP.

[Cisbour]

The stats really speak from themselves anyways! My letter's sent to Harpie.

[fasken]

I didn't contradict myself.

I said that as far as I (me Gilles Hudicourt) am concerned, wet-lease pilots should not count in either direction.

Sunwing, however, has been counting the pilots it sends overseas on wet-leases as fulfilling their obligations to CIC on reciprocity.

I say that if CIC accepts that argument (which I do not agree with), that they should also count all foreign pilots who come to work in Canada on wet-leases for Sunwing. There were at least 80 to 90 of those in 2012 alone, not counting the dry-lease foreign pilots......

The problem in Canada is that because foreign pilots who come on Wet-Leases do not need work permits and don't go through CIC to come to Canada, how can CIC, which administers reciprocity, control the program ? They do not know about the foreign pilots who come here on wet-leases.

Sunwing has 10 permanent year round aircraft. For several years, they have been sending 3 aircraft in Europe on wet-leases and sent 4 aircraft this past summer. If sending wet-leases back in forth was the way to do reciprocity, Sunwing would have been allowed to bring in 3 extra foreign 737s the previous years, and 4 737s this winter.

Yet this summer they wet-leased 2 B-767s from Europe and are bringing in 19 B-737s this winter, for a total of 21 foreign aircraft.

They send 4 aircraft to Europe for 6 months and in "RECIPROCITY" they bring in 21 aircraft from Europe for 6 months.

Anyone who just decides to merely open their eyes will have a full and complete understanding of what is really going on here.

And "they" let it happen. What am I missing ?

So if Sunwing did 4 wet leases in the summer and brought in 15 wet leases in the winter, that those pilot shouldn't count towards reciprocity?

[JTF01]

So if Sunwing did 4 wet leases in the summer and brought in 15 wet leases in the winter, that those pilot shouldn't count towards reciprocity?

Gilles is pointing out how if 4 Sunwing wetleases go to Europe in the summer, yet 15 come from Europe in the winter, it is hardly "reciprocity."

[fasken]

So if Sunwing did 4 wet leases in the summer and brought in 15 wet leases in the winter, that those pilot shouldn't count towards reciprocity?

Gilles is pointing out how if 4 Sunwing wetleases go to Europe in the summer, yet 15 come from Europe in the winter, it is hardly "reciprocity."

That is not what Gilles said. Gilles said that wet lease pilots should not count towards reciprocity. I think they should.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Here is what YOU wrote on your very first post on this forum as a new member:

I think the only fair way is to count all pilots. Wet and dry. Industry wide. So Transat wet leases abroad should count. Canadian pilots are working overseas, which is good. Sunwing pilots working overseas, wet or dry, good. If there are more Canadian pilots working for a Canadian airline overseas than there are non resident pilots working in Canada, then this type of policy is good for Canadian pilots.

And that was to help out OPEC6-Heavy. And strangely, your syntax and his are very similar.

You stated here that the pilots Air Transat send on wet leases overseas should count towards a Canada-wide industry pilot reciprocity program, increasing the total number of Canadian pilots working overseas and allow, in exchange, for Sunwing to import more foreign pilots to Canada than their own company quota would allow. Strange concept, but considering who it is coming from........

No wonder you keep bringing up Air Transat's wet leases abroad (when you write as OPEC6).


Let me recap:

On one hand Sunwing sent 4 aircraft on wet-leases to Europe in the summer of 2012.

During that time Sunwing was wet-leasing 2 EuroAtlantic B767s which spent six months in Canada.
Then Sunwing Wet-leased 4 B-737 from Travel Service (3 of which are in Canada, the fourth arrives on Dec 12th)
Then Sunwing dry-Leased another 6 B-737s from Travel Service
Then Sunwing dry-leased one B-737 from Thomson
Then Sunwing dry-leased one B-737 from TUIfly
Another 7 B-737 dry-leases are due to arrive for Sunwing shortly, from Thomson and TUIfly

For a grand total of 21 aircraft imported from Europe, this year. All that against the 4 aircraft sent on wet-leases to Europe.

Some reciprocity!

Is that clear enough or are you once again going to try to deflect this hard reality with some un-related B/S about me not being clear in my statements, OPEC6-Heavy, Fasken or whatever you want to call yourself (Sunwing Airlines' address is "27 Fasken Dr")

[morningwood]

[quote="fasken
I think the only fair way is to count all pilots. Wet and dry. Industry wide.
If Canada stops allowing any foreign pilots in (wet or dry), then other countries will start to do the same to us.

I think that Fasken hit the nail on the head.
This is an industry wide issue, and must be looked at from that perspective.
On reading some of the posts here, it seems to have become a witch hunt targeting the competition of some posters on behalf of their employers.
The real issue is the total number of Canadian Pilots (industry wide) going to a foreign country to operate an aircraft in that country, vs the total number of foreign pilots coming here to operate an aircraft in Canada.
I would be curious to know what these total numbers are, although if you include Canadian companies such as Kenn Borek Air etc., I would suspect that the total numbers would be in our favour. How many Canadian Pilots are overseas flying in the sand box at any given time?
When governments negotiate trade agreements, they must look at total numbers, industry wide, not company specific numbers.
When a Canadian Pilot goes to work in a foreign country on a wet lease or dry lease, it makes little difference what the registration painted on the tail is to the pilot in France or Malaysia who is out of a job.
I know that Quebec is very skewed on the protectionist side, but we as Canadian Pilots need to look at the total net benefit to Canadian Pilots and if we attempt to close our borders without knowing the total numbers on this issue, many countries around the world will do the same to Canadian Pilots.
I for one, don't want to see that happen.

[OPEC6-Heavy]

Gilles,

Are you kidding me! You think that I'm also posting as "Fasken", that's called paranoia setting in. You need a break Mr Eustache...

[OPEC6-Heavy]

Gilles,

Sorry, forgot to add this

Are you Mr Hunter? You sure have all his arguments.

This is not a good sign. I'm thinking he has better things to do with his time...

[60N30W]

Gilles,

I think Transat has done a great job in equalizing the playing field with regards to sending Canadian pilots overseas on Wet-lease. This may even help offset the total amount of Foreign pilot ratios coming to Canada in a 1 year period. Canadian vs. Foreigners, Apples vs Apples. What is the total number going to France and Malaysia this year? Around 6 A330's worth of crew over a 6 month period. I know it's only one sided, so their is no reciprocity. But this may help the balance for your Tax argument and maybe help a little with regards to Canadian employment numbers. I know its a different angle, not company specific but Canada wide. The total numbers would be interesting.

Hello OPEC6,

Couple corrections for you. No TSC crews are based in France, the flying done for the French contract is part of our normal rotations. For example we will operate a TSC flight to CDG from YUL, layover, then head to PUJ for the French carrier, layover and back to Canada on a TSC flight. No one is lucky or unluck to be based in CDG for the winter. Next little point the A330's go to Indonesia not Malaysia, same general area so I can see how the mistake happens! They are gone for about 2 months not six and the French contract runs for about 4.5 months.

I am curious as to why you think TSC pilots going overseas should have any influence on the number of Sunwing foreign pilots who can come to Canada? For the record Air Transat does not bring any pilots to Canada, via wet lease, short term contract etc...

Now if you think TSC pilots going on short term contracts overseas should be part of the numbers ( I don't) maybe you should also include the Canadian pilots who go to California and other parts of the US flying Canadian water-bombers every year. How about including our Air Force Pilots who get deployed abroad for extended periods of time or are sent on exchange programs, lets not forget all the Canadian survey pilots who operate all over the place, and while we are at it I think there is a large number of Canadian helicopter pilots flying abroad for various Canadian helicopter operators!! Not one of the operations I have just mentioned cost any Canadian pilots their jobs. The practices of Sunwing and Canjet are a threat to every Canadian pilot, they are taking jobs away from Canadian pilots and that is the concern.

Can't wait to see how Hunter and the Sunwing gang are going to re-act when the next travel company starts up and brings in only foreign pilots to operate their aircraft for the winter season? I know you are going to say that won't be allowed by the CTA and HSRDC......... That is what I thought when Sunwing started bringing in all these planes and pilots a couple of years ago. Watch out for what is next.

Regards,

60N30W

PS, Gilles really is Gilles Hudicourt, his name is a few above mine on the seniority list and we have flown together, to put your worries away about him really being J-M!!!

[Rogerdodger2]

Here is what YOU wrote on your very first post on this forum as a new member:

I think the only fair way is to count all pilots. Wet and dry. Industry wide. So Transat wet leases abroad should count. Canadian pilots are working overseas, which is good. Sunwing pilots working overseas, wet or dry, good. If there are more Canadian pilots working for a Canadian airline overseas than there are non resident pilots working in Canada, then this type of policy is good for Canadian pilots.

And that was to help out OPEC6-Heavy. And strangely, your syntax and his are very similar.

You stated here that the pilots Air Transat send on wet leases overseas should count towards a Canada-wide industry pilot reciprocity program, increasing the total number of Canadian pilots working overseas and allow, in exchange, for Sunwing to import more foreign pilots to Canada than their own company quota would allow. Strange concept, but considering who it is coming from........

No wonder you keep bringing up Air Transat's wet leases abroad (when you write as OPEC6).


Let me recap:

On one hand Sunwing sent 4 aircraft on wet-leases to Europe in the summer of 2012.

During that time Sunwing was wet-leasing 2 EuroAtlantic B767s which spent six months in Canada.
Then Sunwing Wet-leased 4 B-737 from Travel Service (3 of which are in Canada, the fourth arrives on Dec 12th)
Then Sunwing dry-Leased another 6 B-737s from Travel Service
Then Sunwing dry-leased one B-737 from Thomson
Then Sunwing dry-leased one B-737 from TUIfly
Another 7 B-737 dry-leases are due to arrive for Sunwing shortly, from Thomson and TUIfly

For a grand total of 21 aircraft imported from Europe, this year. All that against the 4 aircraft sent on wet-leases to Europe.

Some reciprocity!

Is that clear enough or are you once again going to try to deflect this hard reality with some un-related B/S about me not being clear in my statements, OPEC6-Heavy, Fasken or whatever you want to call yourself (Sunwing Airlines' address is "27 Fasken Dr")

Gilles,
Why does it matter if this is fasken's first post or 50th? Last time I checked this was a public site and anyone may post a comment when they want. It seems of late that you don't like what others are posting. Others are allowed to have opinions and they can differ from yours. Accusing someone of being someone else and pointing out that they are "new" isn't very professional in a forum that involves professionals. Even if Fasken is "new" it doesn't mean he or she hasn't been reading every post and doesn't devalue their opinion.
Most of the time, Gilles, your posts are well thought out and very civil. Perhaps you're having a bad day or maybe take a break for a couple days. It must be draining working everyday on this quest.

[OPEC6-Heavy]

60N30W,

Yes, I wanted to say Indonesia.

They are gone for about 2 months not six and the French contract runs for about 4.5 months.

The 6 months was referring to the overall time period of Wet-lease overseas. 2 months + 4.5 months= 6.5 months

Can't wait to see how Hunter and the Sunwing gang are going to re-act when the next travel company starts up and brings in only foreign pilots to operate their aircraft for the winter season?

Well lets hope for all our sake that doesn't happen. But guess who's going to be best positioned for such a disaster-est new company of only foreign pilots? (rhetorical question).

[WetJet]

Why does it matter if this is fasken's first post or 50th?

How funny is it that fasken is getting support from another guy who clearly had to make up 2nd account to hide who he really is too! I'm suprised the mods didn't ban you after your first post. Rogerdoger2, fasken, you know you are on the wrong side of the foreign pilot issue.The numbers above prove it.
So all you have left it to attack Gilles for his efforts? Weak.

[fasken]

Why does it matter if this is fasken's first post or 50th?

How funny is it that fasken getting support from another guy who clearly had to make up 2nd account just to hide who is really is too! I'm suprised the mods didn't ban you after your first post. rd2, fasken, you know you are on the wrong side of the foreign pilot issue.The numbers above prove it.
So all you have left it to attack Gilles for his efforts? Weak.

I did not attack Gilles.

I stated that I am for 1:1 reciprocity, how I think it should be calculated and why. For that I have been attacked.

Gilles stated his opinion that wet pilots shouldn't count towards reciprocity. So any pilots working abroad on wet lease and any pilot working in Canada on wet leases don't count towards reciprocity. I think they should. To make my point, I asked Gilles if he then agreed that it would be okay for Sunwing to wet lease out 4 planes in summer and wet lease in 13 in winter.

If you agree with Gilles position on the issue, these pilots don't count towards reciprocity, so this is okay.

I am merely asked Gilles, who has done a tremendous amount of work on this, why he thinks wet pilots shouldn't count? I think they should all count.

I would still like an answer.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I am merely asked Gilles, who has done a tremendous amount of work on this, why he thinks wet pilots shouldn't count? I think they should all count.

I would still like an answer.

I already replied, all you need to do is read what I wrote

The problem in Canada is that because foreign pilots who come on Wet-Leases do not need work permits and don't go through CIC to come to Canada, how can CIC, which administers reciprocity, control the program ? They do not know about the foreign pilots who come here on wet-leases.

[Rogerdodger2]

WetJet I have no idea who RD2 is. But I guess I see your point, it is inconceivable that RD2 and I are two different people.

[Gravol]

Gilles,

Are you kidding me! You think that I'm also posting as "Fasken", that's called paranoia setting in. You need a break Mr Eustache...

Don't you have any respect for someone whose trying to protect pilot jobs here in Canada?

[AsheetMaDraws]

Don't fool yourself, before Sunwing was a thorn in Transat's side
nobody took any notice. While Transat has laid off once again for the second
winter in a row, Sunwing has hired and not laid off, some permanent and some
temporary Canadian pilots.
Still not good enough though, as it's still is a thorn in Transat's side, thus the witch hunt continues.