Sunwing to hire foreigners using the LMO method

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Gilles,
I realize your concern with Foreign pilots Includes Canjet and not just Sunwing (cut and paste not necessary). I get that... what about Canadian Jobs taking Canadian Transat jobs? that was my question. Looking for your opinion, that's all. Seems like a difficult spot for ALPA as both groups are represented by them.

My mandate is FOREIGN pilots. If Sunwing hires more Canadians including more of my laid off colleagues, and stops hiring foreigners in excess of 1:1 reciprocity, I'll be happy. Same at Canjet (I put it in red to be sure you don't miss it like you missed all the other times I mentionned Canjet)

You want my views about Transat giving out work to Canjet instead of letting Air Transat do the flying with its own 737s? It sucks and I hope they stop that when CJs contract expires in May 2014 and that they do not renew that contract with them. Our MEC negotiated a salary scale for the 737 after the contract with CJ had already been signed. They should prevail themselves of that opening we gave them, instead of renewing with CJ. I hope that they finally give us the tools we need to become competitive on the Southern routes.

[OPEC6-Heavy]

60N30W, Gilles

Thanks for the response and perspective.

Gilles,

No need to highlight in RED, I see everything.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I'm sure your buddy is also having thoughts as to why 200+ Canadian and foreign pilots at Canjet are taking his job as well (Transat Flying).

I noticed you wanted to compare Sunwing to Canjet. I'll go along for the ride.

Canjet
Operates 5 full time aircraft.
Employs around 120 full time pilots, so 24 full time pilots per aircraft.
In the winter, it increase its fleet to 13 aircraft with 8 dry leases.
In the winter it hires about 40 foreign pilots to bring the crew to to about 12 pilots per aircraft.
All foreign pilots are First officers and go at the bottom of the seniority list. They pay Union dues.
At this staffing level, Canjet is well positioned for real 1:1 reciprocity

Sunwing
Operates 10 full time aircraft.
Employs around 150 full time pilots, so 15 full time pilots per aircraft.
In the winter, it increases its fleet to 29 aircraft with 15 dry-leases and 4 wet-leases.
In the winter, it hires 20 Canadian part timers, and 186 foreign part timers to bring the crews to about 12 pilots per aircraft.
Many of the foreigners are Captains and none pay Union dues.
At this staffing level, Sunwing can only lie about 1:1 reciprocity

[OPEC6-Heavy]

That's great,
Nothing radically new.

What was interesting was:

Canjet Operates 5 full time aircraft.
Employs around 120 full time pilots, so 24 full time pilots per aircraft.

That's a huge amount of Full time pilots per aircraft. Wow
I'm guessing Canjet's built that into the price.

[JTF01]

I got an email from one of my buddies who was laid off by Air Transat recently. Here is the essence of what he wrote (I am paraphrasing):

I received confirmation that the foreign pilots on work permits in Canada are employed and paid by European companies and pay not a cent here in Canada.

I am totally disgusted. I am leaving my wife and baby behind to go work in .....stan when those Canadian jobs should be available to us. This situation is not only ludicrous but also outrageous.

Gilles -

You need to work with the media to try to get your buddy's story some news. I am presuming he is headed off to work in Afghanistan (as from your cut and paste email, the last four letters of the country where he is going to work in ends in 'stan and there are a good number of Canucks in aviation here).

Imagine the following tear-jerker story: XXX, a laid-off Air Transat pilot, having to go work in Afghanistan to support his family. He'll be leaving a month before Christmas no less, missing the holiday season, and likely gone 2-3 months on rotation. Throw in a cute photo of the afore-mentioned pilot, his wife, and baby, maybe sitting around a Christmas tree and opening presents early because Daddy will be gone for December 25th.

Then set up the bad guys - the federal employment laws that are being blatantly abused by companies like Sunwing to import foreigners, the government which looks the other way, mid-level federal bureaucrats who do nothing to prevent this and lap up everything Sunwing says at face value. Maybe even relate this all to the Chinese miners working in British Columbia situation.

It makes for a compelling, tear-jerking narrative, the way decisions made at high levels are adversely affecting the average citizen. It would have tremendous sympathy appeal to the Tim Hortons crowd. It is the kind of story which will put a very human face on what our government is allowing the Sunwings and CanJets of this industry to do. I know my heart goes out to your buddy for the situation he is in.

jtf

(also working in Afghanistan because I can't get Sunwing or CanJet to call).

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Thirty recently furloughed jet pilots approached HRSDC with the following proposal:

Instead of paying them Employment Insurance, pay for the simulator at CAE so they can get a 737NG rating in order to get hired at Canjet and Sunwing instead of providing LMOs and work permits to foreigners.

With garanteed jobs, that would allow them to go right back to work and start paying taxes instead of collecting EI.

So far, they have not heard back from HRSDC and it seems that the foreigners are getting their work permits in the meantime.

So foreigners who pay no taxes are getting the jobs and the 30 furloughed Canadian pilots will be collecting EI........

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Not too long ago, I made a request to HRSDC under the Access to Infomration Act, to ask to see all LMO applications made for pilots in Canada in 2012:

The verdict is in : there is none from Sunwing. That means that all foreign pilots in Canada presently flying Sunwing aircraft came under the reciprocal agreements under Citizenship and Immigration Canada.

[morningwood]

Not too long ago, I made a request to HRSDC under the Access to Infomration Act, to ask to see all LMO applications made for pilots in Canada in 2012:

The verdict is in : there is none from Sunwing.

Gilles
Are you saying that there were no Canadian companies that made LMO applications for pilots in 2012?
You keep claiming that your motive is all foreign pilots working in Canada, but you lose a lot of credibility when you only focus on one company, and they just happen to be your direct competition.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Not too long ago, I made a request to HRSDC under the Access to Infomration Act, to ask to see all LMO applications made for pilots in Canada in 2012:

The verdict is in : there is none from Sunwing.

Gilles
Are you saying that there were no Canadian companies that made LMO applications for pilots in 2012?
You keep claiming that your motive is all foreign pilots working in Canada, but you lose a lot of credibility when you only focus on one company, and they just happen to be your direct competition.

Read the title of THIS THREAD.

Also look on page 1 of this thread and read the reply I gave to another guy who made insinuations similar to yours. Its the post I made on Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:33 pm.

Then go read this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=85647

And then come back to me about my credibility. What about yours ? What is your opinion anyway on foreign pilots in Canada ?

People who never take position here and never post an opinion are on my back.

Why is everyone on my back ? Is it a sign that they are starting to feel the effects ? Sunwing has 21 aircraft flying right now and they don't seem to be short of pilots to fly them.

[morningwood]

What is your opinion anyway on foreign pilots in Canada ?

People who never take position here and never post an opinion are on my back.

Why is everyone on my back ?

Gilles
I did give my opinion on another of your many threads, which was:

I think that Fasken hit the nail on the head.
This is an industry wide issue, and must be looked at from that perspective.
On reading some of the posts here, it seems to have become a witch hunt targeting the competition of some posters on behalf of their employers.
The real issue is the total number of Canadian Pilots (industry wide) going to a foreign country to operate an aircraft in that country, vs the total number of foreign pilots coming here to operate an aircraft in Canada.
I would be curious to know what these total numbers are, although if you include Canadian companies such as Kenn Borek Air etc., I would suspect that the total numbers would be in our favour. How many Canadian Pilots are overseas flying in the sand box at any given time?
When governments negotiate trade agreements, they must look at total numbers, industry wide, not company specific numbers.
When a Canadian Pilot goes to work in a foreign country on a wet lease or dry lease, it makes little difference what the registration painted on the tail is to the pilot in France or Malaysia who is out of a job.
I know that Quebec is very skewed on the protectionist side, but we as Canadian Pilots need to look at the total net benefit to Canadian Pilots and if we attempt to close our borders without knowing the total numbers on this issue, many countries around the world will do the same to Canadian Pilots.
I for one, don't want to see that happen.

Maybe people are "on your back" because they happen to disagree with you on some of your points.

[Jean-Luc Monette]

...
The real issue is the total number of Canadian Pilots (industry wide) going to a foreign country to operate an aircraft in that country, vs the total number of foreign pilots coming here to operate an aircraft in Canada.
I would be curious to know what these total numbers are, although if you include Canadian companies such as Kenn Borek Air etc., I would suspect that the total numbers would be in our favour. How many Canadian Pilots are overseas flying in the sand box at any given time?

Apples, oranges... Canada=no pilot shortage, "sandbox" et al.=pilot shortage

I know that Quebec is very skewed on the protectionist side...

Now, you must really be out of arguments to make that one up

[mbav8r]

I will presume that the majority of naysayers on here either work for Sunwing/Canjet or work overseas and are worried about if Canada takes a more protectionist stance, other countries will follow. The main difference is those other countries have a shortage and if they solve that problem, you will need something to come back to. At the rate things are going, there won't be anything worth coming back to, so you better hope they don't solve their shortage problem.
I don't work for AT and I don't care if Transat sends 30 airplanes to Europe for 10 months, that is for European pilots to worry about. Canadian airlines compete with one another so using Transat's wetleases to justify what Sunwing and to a lesser degree Canjet is doing, is one of the most ridiculous arguments I've seen on here. This is about Sunwing, breaking and bending laws and regulations and outright lying, to give themselves a competitive advantage.
You're right about one thing morningwood, this is an industry wide issue. So much so that ALPA Canada board has been on this "witchhunt" for a couple years and due to the increase in abuse has made it, this years TOP PRIORITY!

[fasken]

Apples, oranges... Canada=no pilot shortage, "sandbox" et al.=pilot shortage

Are you seriously suggesting that Indonesia, population 242,325,638 can't find 10 or 12 pilots who could be trained to fly Transat's A330?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Are you seriously suggesting that Indonesia, population 242,325,638 can't find 10 or 12 pilots who could be trained to fly Transat's A330?

Yes!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6248490.stm

Unlike Sunwing, Air Transat does not put its passengers on aircraft flown by pilots who have failed PPCs given by company check pilots unless these have been re-trained and subsequently passed the test. Sunwing made the pilots "pass" by changing the aircraft's registration to a foreign one.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Here is part of a letter written by Immigration Minister Jason Kenney, on the the foreign pilot issue:

The immigration and Refugee Protection Regulations allow foreign workers to take up employment in Canada when Canadians have similar reciprocal opportunities abroad. CIC's responsibility is to ensure that exchanges exist for reciprocal employment of Canadians.

In July 2012, guidelines for officers assessing reciprocal agreements were updated in the Foreign Worker Guidelines Manual (FW1). As part of that update, officer can now require a higher minimum proportion of Canadians employed abroad to foreign nationals employed in Canada (ei., at least 75%) when assessing whether the company is providing a satisfactory level of reciprocity. Officers can also request evidence of the number of Canadians who have been employed abroad by the foreign company during the last exchange. If officers are not satisfied that reciprocity exists, employers will be advised to seek an LMO from HRSDC.

[RichAir]

@ morningwood

I would suspect that the total numbers would be in our favour. How many Canadian Pilots are overseas flying in the sand box at any given time?

Why would I go work overseas in countries where human rights doesn't exist, with my family, and leave a nice B737 pilot job based in my own country, where I am happy to live.
When our nice jobs won't be available anymore in Canada because only foreign people can have them, we will all have to go work where I'm not interrested to be. I feel like somebody just showed up in my house and tells me to go live in a dirty suburb just because he wants to live in my house, there's not enough room for both of us, and he is not interrested in his home anymore, so I am the one who has to leave.

@ Gilles
Merci de ton support Gilles, en tant que pilote Canadien, j'espère pouvoir travailler dans le domaine que j'aime, dans le pays que j'aime, pour les 30 prochaines années.

[RichAir]

In July 2012, guidelines for officers assessing reciprocal agreements were updated in the Foreign Worker Guidelines Manual (FW1). As part of that update, officer can now require a higher minimum proportion of Canadians employed abroad to foreign nationals employed in Canada (ei., at least 75%) when assessing whether the company is providing a satisfactory level of reciprocity. Officers can also request evidence of the number of Canadians who have been employed abroad by the foreign company during the last exchange. If officers are not satisfied that reciprocity exists, employers will be advised to seek an LMO from HRSDC.

Basically, if they feel like doing so, they can do it, but they don't have to, and anyway, it's not laws or rules, only guidelines... and 75% is just an example.

Boules chiites

[mbav8r]

In July 2012, guidelines for officers assessing reciprocal agreements were updated in the Foreign Worker Guidelines Manual (FW1). As part of that update, officer can now require a higher minimum proportion of Canadians employed abroad to foreign nationals employed in Canada (ei., at least 75%) when assessing whether the company is providing a satisfactory level of reciprocity. Officers can also request evidence of the number of Canadians who have been employed abroad by the foreign company during the last exchange. If officers are not satisfied that reciprocity exists, employers will be advised to seek an LMO from HRSDC.

You missed some important parts.

[fingersmac]

Are you seriously suggesting that Indonesia, population 242,325,638 can't find 10 or 12 pilots who could be trained to fly Transat's A330?

It's hard to take your arguments seriously when you make such ridiculous statements. There is a serious shortage of pilots through out Asia, and Indonesia is no different. If and when there is enough locals to take over, you can bet foreign pilots flying in Indonesia will be sent home.

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2011 ... lcome.html

The Transportation Ministry’s head of human resources development agency, Capt. Bobby Mamahit, urged airline operators to temporarily hire foreign pilots or halt their fleet expansions pending the availability of more local pilots.

[OPEC6-Heavy]

Gilles,

Unlike Sunwing, Air Transat does not put its passengers on aircraft flown by pilots who have failed PPCs given by company check pilots unless these have been re-trained and subsequently passed the test

Completely untrue, be vary careful what you say Monsieur. You insult every pilot at Sunwing with a statement like that. You mentioned earlier about Legal action, well keep that up and I wouldn't be surprised... I hope for your sake not. Sunwing maintains a very high standard and always has. These individuals did not meet our check pilot standards. Too bad, happens every year. They where sent back to there home airlines and where "re-trained and subsequently passed the test" to fly for their own company under their own company standards.

Crossing the line, sets you back in your quest.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Gilles,

Unlike Sunwing, Air Transat does not put its passengers on aircraft flown by pilots who have failed PPCs given by company check pilots unless these have been re-trained and subsequently passed the test

Completely untrue, be vary careful what you say Monsieur. You insult every pilot at Sunwing with a statement like that. You mentioned earlier about Legal action, well keep that up and I wouldn't be surprised... I hope for your sake not. Sunwing maintains a very high standard and always has. These individuals did not meet our check pilot standards. Too bad, happens every year. They where sent back to there home airlines and where "re-trained and subsequently passed the test" to fly for their own company under their own company standards.

Crossing the line, sets you back in your quest.

I made no such statement, Sir. Do not misquote me. What I actually wrote was :

Unlike Sunwing, Air Transat does not put its passengers on aircraft flown by pilots who have failed PPCs given by company check pilots unless these have been re-trained and subsequently passed the test. Sunwing made the pilots "pass" by changing the aircraft's registration to a foreign one.

This has an entirely different meaning and does not reflect poorly in any form or manner on any of Sunwing's fantastic Canadian pilots.

What those others I was referring to had to do to get back in the cockpit is known only to the Czech authorities who licence them to fly those aircraft. Sunwing and Transport Canada records show a "fail".

[fasken]

Gilles,

Unlike Sunwing, Air Transat does not put its passengers on aircraft flown by pilots who have failed PPCs given by company check pilots unless these have been re-trained and subsequently passed the test

Completely untrue, be vary careful what you say Monsieur. You insult every pilot at Sunwing with a statement like that. You mentioned earlier about Legal action, well keep that up and I wouldn't be surprised... I hope for your sake not. Sunwing maintains a very high standard and always has. These individuals did not meet our check pilot standards. Too bad, happens every year. They where sent back to there home airlines and where "re-trained and subsequently passed the test" to fly for their own company under their own company standards.

Crossing the line, sets you back in your quest.

I made no such statement, Sir. Do not misquote me. What I actually wrote was :

Unlike Sunwing, Air Transat does not put its passengers on aircraft flown by pilots who have failed PPCs given by company check pilots unless these have been re-trained and subsequently passed the test. Sunwing made the pilots "pass" by changing the aircraft's registration to a foreign one.

This has an entirely different meaning and does not reflect poorly in any form or manner on any of Sunwing's fantastic Canadian pilots.

What those others I was referring to had to do to get back in the cockpit is known only to the Czech authorities who licence them to fly those aircraft. Sunwing and Transport Canada records show a "fail".

You better be very careful Gilles, you have crossed the line from misinformation to blatant lies. And you are questioning the quality of Western European pilots who have met EASA standards -- very dangerous position to take. Sunwing bought the Travel Service wet lease in last year because we had a plane damaged by a wind storm in Montreal, not because we were short of pilots. Suggesting that these pilots were brought in as a back door way to get them flying in Canada after they did not pass our training is a blatant lie. The issue was a language barrier or pilots who did not want to come to Canada. Just because these pilots couldn't convert from their SOPs to ours doesn't mean they can't fly to their SOPs. Ones they are familiar with. They do have an EASA license after all. Might as well question the safety of BA, Air France and Lufthansa pilots.

[DeltaHotel]

They where sent back to there home airlines and where "re-trained and subsequently passed the test" to fly for their own company under their own company standards.

A thousand words summarized in one sentence.

As far as I'm concerned, anybody wanting to fly a C- registered aircraft should pass the TC requirements....

All you Sunwing pilots out there, I understand, it's only natural to protect and defend your employer's integrity. Our profession is being degraded by the month and we should ALL thrive to preserve THE PROFESSION. Beyond company entitlement, size of aircraft we fly and french vs english issues.... All you SWG pilots defending your employer's business strategy .. shame on you. You are part of the problem and you are the reason that our children, the next genration of airline pilots will be blue color, minimum wage workers with no benefits.

I'm anxious to see how please you all will be when a cheaper, sleezier less ethical foreign carrier underbids Sunwing on your ''Sell Off Vacation Packages'' ...

[OPEC6-Heavy]

DeltaHotel,

As far as I'm concerned, anybody wanting to fly a C- registered aircraft should pass the TC requirements....

What's your point exactly? This is what's happening, NO pass TC requirements, NO fly C-reg airplane.
Anyone in there right mind would defend their own company when the line has been crossed, we all agree to the imbalance and we will fight that part of it. If you have little or no respect for your employer that's your problem (sad). I have a huge disagreement with my company regarding the overuse of European pilots, this doesn't mean I'm going to throw it under the bus.

[ea306]

Delta Hotel

Your post is probably one of the most ignorant posts I have read in awhile. How dare you even for a moment suggest that Sunwing Pilots are the cause of this issue. We are doing our part to effect change.

Your statement makes about as much sense as stating something equally ridiculous by placing the blame on you or your Colleagues because your company has sourced out your work to a company who in turn were first to bring in non reciprocating foreign pilots. No rational clear thinking individual of sound mind who professes to be a professional would ever make such an ill thought out statement.

Simply ridiculous to place the blame on this issue on any pilot group or individuals within.

You are completely off base and out of line.