Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

[mbav8r]

Regardless, I'm sure Captain Adamus gets flight release for his work with ALPA Canada, the threat is real not some make believe fear mongering. There have been consequences, not only to AT...

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Gilles,
Are you or are you not getting paid office credit by Transat to fight this battle?

Let's see if he tells the truth here folks...

"the truth will set you free"

You must be covered in chains then.........

[av8tor_assrope]

Haha.....what a fraud! You have us all believe you're doing this for the good of Canadian aviators but really you're being compensated by your company to fight this battle.....who just so happens to be the direct competition!

What a fraud! I wouldn't follow you to a strip bar....let alone in this foreign pilot battle!

[trey kule]

Well, that question perked my interest. I was a bit disappointed that it did not receive a simple yes or no answer..

Has all AvCanada readers being fooled into thinking someone who claimed they were fighting the battle for all was being compensated by their company as a competition strategy?

You might want to directly answer the question if the answer is no.

I think there are a lot of people here who would like a definite answer to the question.

[60N30W]

Haha.....what a fraud! You have us all believe you're doing this for the good of Canadian aviators but really you're being compensated by your company to fight this battle.....who just so happens to be the direct competition!

Do you have proof of this or are you just shooting your mouth off?

[trey kule]

That was what I was wondering. And quite frankly , if someone posed that question to me, under the circumstances, I would have unequivacally responded with a "no" and made allusions to their mother's canine ancestery.

So Mr. H's response was a bit puzzling....

If that claim is true, there is a great many people here that deserve an apology. If it is not true, it was a terrible thing to claim, and the posts should be deleted.
The first question, still being unanswered remains to have Mr. H respond.
To the second question, hopefully we will have an answer.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

That was what I was wondering. And quite frankly , if someone posed that question to me, under the circumstances, I would have unequivacally responded with a "no" and made allusions to their mother's canine ancestery.

So Mr. H's response was a bit puzzling....

If that claim is true, there is a great many people here that deserve an apology. If it is not true, it was a terrible thing to claim, and the posts should be deleted.
The first question, still being unanswered remains to have Mr. H respond.
To the second question, hopefully we will have an answer.

Begin, like me, by posting under your real names and posting your real employers, and we can then begin to talk.

For the time being, we have one guy posting under his real name (me) who readily admits who he works for, and what he does there, being called a fraud by a bunch of nobodies hiding behind handles.

Do you not see how ridiculous you all are ? What do you want ? For me to post my schedule and my pay stub ?

You guys are just attempting to divert the real issue:

Sunwing has 10 Canadian aircraft and 150 full time Canadian pilots.

They imported 19 European aircraft and over 200 foreign pilots under reciprocity rules that they do not respect or follow.

When CIC tried to block them, they threatened that aircraft would be grounded and Canadians' vacations cancelled and ruined if they did not get the work permits and CIC gave in.

Sunwing in fact took their customers hostage to force CIC to provide them with work permits that they should not have gotten.

That is what I think really occurred this winter.

[trey kule]

First of all, I am confused.. Was that a yes or a no?

I do not think that any of us, has a "mandate" to deal with the foreign pilot issue..(the word mandate, was from one of your posts.) You did. Whether I agree with what you are doing or not, if you are doing it for altruistic ends then you deserve all the praise that has been heaped upon you.
If you are getting compensation of any kind from your company for your efforts than you are little more than a scoundrel.

Which again makes me wonder why you just do not answer the question unequivacally. It is a fair question.

The folks working for your competition have been very civil about not discussing some of the claims you are making...

As you are quite aware, I have had some doubts about your motivation, and have taken a lot of flack from people here for daring to question it.. They deserve a clear answer.

This question is important. It is not going to go away. And it is a simple yes or no question.

[Dick]

I too find it interesting that instead of answering the question, Mr. Hudicourt chose to go on a rampage about Sunwing, and only Sunwing. And chose to refer to those of us questioning his motives as a bunch of nobodies.
To answer your question, Mr. Hudicourt, nobody has asked you to post your schedule or paystub. Just to simply answer a yes or no question.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

My gut feeling: CIC and HRSDC are both going to come out feeling they were manhandled into providing work permits they did not want to provide and were not supposed to provide and will not let this occur another time next year.

I feel that this is the last year we will see this phenomenon in Canadian Aviation.

[Dick]

Question answered.

[newcomer]

...

[florch]

Guys,you're late to the party,Gilles already answered that question:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=85173&p=786185&hilit=Money#p786185

I'm employed as a pilot for Air Transat. That's what they pay me for, that is all I do for them.

What I do outside of flying, I do it for myself, I do it for my colleagues, I do it for my Union, and I do it for you. And I spent a lot of my free time on it, for free. And yes, I have even spent some of my own money on this issue, but not on lawyers yet. Immigration Canada billed me $100 plus taxes for telling me how many Visas they had provided to Sunwing under the reciprocity Rule in 2011.

I guess you owe him an apology...

Begin, like me, by posting under your real names and posting your real employers, and we can then begin to talk.

For the time being, we have one guy posting under his real name (me) who readily admits who he works for, and what he does there, being called a fraud by a bunch of nobodies hiding behind handles.

Do you not see how ridiculous you all are ?

Pathetic indeed...

Even if that's changed, I don't care. If you're digging up truth that other people would just as soon see remain buried, who cares if you're getting paid to do it? It doesn't change whether it's true of not. Entire professions get well compensated for that, police, lawyers, journalists. Gilles' info is just as valid. Can any of his detractors on here debate him on the merit of the actual laws or ethics of the situation. I haven't seen that yet, just self interest and trash talk on the part of his opponents.

[newcomer]

...

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I do not know how many of you are aware of this but there are no specific provisions in the Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARs) that allow foreign licensed pilots to fly as line pilots for 705 operations in Canada.

CAR 721.07 (2) lists all the reasons for which Foreign Licence Validation Certificates may be issued to foreign licensed pilots:

Purposes For Which Foreign Licence Validation Certificates May Be Issued
(a) for the holder to undergo a flight test;
(b) for private recreational flying;
(c) for ferry of an aircraft registered in Canada to or from a foreign country;
(d) for the holder to give type rating training on an aircraft registered in Canada to the registered owner, or to Canadian flight crew employed by the registered owner;
(e) for the holder to receive training in a Canadian registered aircraft;
(f) for operation of aircraft registered in a foreign state under the operating certificate of a Canadian carrier provided that the privileges are limited to the type of aircraft being operated;
(g) for operation of Canadian aircraft on Canadian commercial air services in urgent circumstances; such as fire suppression operations, emergency agricultural and forestry aerial application, airlift in relief of domestic natural disasters, and search and rescue operations;
(h) for commercial air services operated entirely within a foreign country where pilots holding a licence from that country may have their licence validated for operation of Canadian registered aircraft in that country;
(i) for the operation of aircraft registered in Canada on lease to foreign carriers;

None of these allow foreign pilots to fly for Canjet or Sunwing. So they use a last catch-all article:

(j) for reasons other than those mentioned above where approval may be given if, in the opinion of the Minister, it is in the public interest and not likely to affect aviation safety.

The wording of the French version, I find even more restrictive:

j) lorsqu'une demande a la prétention de servir l'intérêt public canadien pour des raisons non pas visées par les circonstances pressantes énumérées ci-dessus, le ministre peut accorder une approbation dans les cas exceptionnels.

The French version specified that paragraph (j) can only be invoked by the Minister in "exceptional cases".

How is it that the Minister approved the deliverance of FLVC to 200 foreign pilots to fly Canadian 737s flying under CAR 705?

The form letter to the PM was not my initiative but once I will have discovered how it is the Minister of Transport approved all these FLVC in the "public interest", perhaps it is to the Minister of Transport that we should be concentrating our efforts. I already wrote to him to protest this practice and here is his reply:

I should explain that Transport Canada Civil Aviation’s mandate is to make sure that the appropriate framework and oversight programs are in place for the safe operation of the Canadian aviation system. Transport Canada does not mandate how companies hire as long as chosen applicants meet the requirements and comply with the Canadian Aviation Regulations. Private companies are free to make their own business decisions regarding job requirements.

I smell I fish.......

[BusDriver]

First of all, I am confused.. Was that a yes or a no?

I do not think that any of us, has a "mandate" to deal with the foreign pilot issue..(the word mandate, was from one of your posts.) You did. Whether I agree with what you are doing or not, if you are doing it for altruistic ends then you deserve all the praise that has been heaped upon you.
If you are getting compensation of any kind from your company for your efforts than you are little more than a scoundrel.

Which again makes me wonder why you just do not answer the question unequivacally. It is a fair question.

The folks working for your competition have been very civil about not discussing some of the claims you are making...

As you are quite aware, I have had some doubts about your motivation, and have taken a lot of flack from people here for daring to question it.. They deserve a clear answer.

This question is important. It is not going to go away. And it is a simple yes or no question.

I question your integrity......are you concerned about anyone outside your pilot group?

[chopsticks]

The idea that Gilles is being compensated by Air Transat, or perhaps being given office days to fight this battle is intriguing. Frankly, I have nothing against that, except that I hope this was Gilles' initiative which perhaps Air Transat is supporting.

Any word on whether the work permits have been issued yet? I hear they have all gone through, which if so means it's business as usual at Sunwing.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

The idea that Gilles is being compensated by Air Transat, or perhaps being given office days to fight this battle is intriguing. Frankly, I have nothing against that, except that I hope this was Gilles' initiative which perhaps Air Transat is supporting.

Any word on whether the work permits have been issued yet? I hear they have all gone through, which if so means it's business as usual at Sunwing.

You are correct that it's business as usual at Sunwing. They are at 24 aircraft right now 11 of which are short term dry leases that they could not possibly crew without the help of over 100 foreign pilots.

[OPEC6-Heavy]

newcumer,

We're in the middle of phase 2 (and it's not pretty!) but we will win!

What are you going to win exactly? What's the end game for you?

[complexintentions]

Actually, if the question of who is backing who is on the table, what agenda do guys like trey kule and Dick have, to be attacking Gilles and therefore defending the practices of the likes of CanJet and Sunwing? Who's paying them?

While Gilles' personal reasons for fighting to keep Canadian jobs in Canada are pretty obvious, the motives of those fighting for the opposite are quite a bit more muddy. It doesn't help that one side of the debate chooses to use his own name while the others hide behind pseudonyms.

Be careful about throwing stones in those glass houses, boys.

Here's some clarity on my own position: overseas expat pilot, don't work for any of the companies involved, and try not vomit all over my computer screen every time I read about the way these companies abuse the spirit of the labour laws and the government stands by. The attacks from within the pilot community itself are just the icing on the shit-cake.

[OPEC6-Heavy]

complexintentions,

to be attacking Gilles and therefore defending the practices of the likes of CanJet and Sunwing? Who's paying them?

Well, Sunwing and Canjet are paying via monthly wages. This is the whole point, people feel they need to defend their employer when they think it's being attacked and could possibly effect their livelihood. Simple Human reaction, same thing Gilles is doing. Let's face it, Gilles is not doing this for the greater good of Pilot humanity in Canada... It's purely a survival tactic. Remember we all have the same feeling about the current use of Foreign pilots, the issues lie with how an individual goes about achieving the same goal we have.

[av8tor_assrope]

complexintentions,

to be attacking Gilles and therefore defending the practices of the likes of CanJet and Sunwing? Who's paying them?

Well, Sunwing and Canjet are paying via monthly wages. This is the whole point, people feel they need to defend their employer when they think it's being attacked and could possibly effect their livelihood. Simple Human reaction, same thing Gilles is doing. Let's face it, Gilles is not doing this for the greater good of Pilot humanity in Canada... It's purely a survival tactic. Remember we all have the same feeling about the current use of Foreign pilots, the issues lie with how an individual goes about achieving the same goal we have.

110% agree. I hate the fact there's foreign pilots. I don't even agree with 1:1. I just hate being lied to. A certain individual deceiving all of us by pretending to fight the good fight but really only cares about the well being of his own company and destroying his competition.

[newcomer]

...

[TG]

Haha.....what a fraud! You have us all believe you're doing this for the good of Canadian aviators but really you're being compensated by your company to fight this battle.....who just so happens to be the direct competition!

What a fraud! I wouldn't follow you to a strip bar....let alone in this foreign pilot battle!

I know Gilles personally and I which you did. He is a top notch guy and doesn't NEED to be "compensated" to fight a battle.
That is so unfair to say, you obviously have no idea.

Believe it or not, there is something else he is involved too that has nothing to do with aviation.
This other "thing", crude word, was recognized by AT almost three years ago and granted him some support as well. Not as a form of a pay check!



All in all, I prefer a company helping a pilot to fight his battle, AKA: Stepping up, than to give him a letter of redundancy.


Disclaimer: I do not work for AT, don't intend to or have any relatives and interest there.
Go Gilles, tail wheel lock on

[60N30W]

complexintentions,

to be attacking Gilles and therefore defending the practices of the likes of CanJet and Sunwing? Who's paying them?

Well, Sunwing and Canjet are paying via monthly wages. This is the whole point, people feel they need to defend their employer when they think it's being attacked and could possibly effect their livelihood. Simple Human reaction, same thing Gilles is doing. Let's face it, Gilles is not doing this for the greater good of Pilot humanity in Canada... It's purely a survival tactic. Remember we all have the same feeling about the current use of Foreign pilots, the issues lie with how an individual goes about achieving the same goal we have.

110% agree. I hate the fact there's foreign pilots. I don't even agree with 1:1. I just hate being lied to. A certain individual deceiving all of us by pretending to fight the good fight but really only cares about the well being of his own company and destroying his competition.

av8tor_assrope

Can you please provide evidence/examples of these lies you talk of?

Regards,

M. Jackson