Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

[OPEC6-Heavy]

Newcomer,

So sorry, must have been a slip of the keyboard. O and U are very close.

either stop these practices or have a real 1:1 agreement. Simple as that.

That's what we all want to see 1:1, at least we all agree on that. And guess what, that means we all "WIN" not just one individual.

[Scuba_Steve]

I too have the pleasure of knowing Gilles personally and he is not taking anything from TS, moreover he started this fight on his own personal time without TS even knowing....

Keep up the personal attacks though, it has all the comedy of a US election campaign....

Cheers

[FICU]

110% agree. I hate the fact there's foreign pilots. I don't even agree with 1:1. I just hate being lied to. A certain individual deceiving all of us by pretending to fight the good fight but really only cares about the well being of his own company and destroying his competition.

Do you have proof we are being lied to?

He is fighting for Canadian pilots and should be rewarded in some way for his efforts. I'd buy him drinks if I had the chance!

[FICU]

Well, Sunwing and Canjet are paying via monthly wages. This is the whole point, people feel they need to defend their employer when they think it's being attacked and could possibly effect their livelihood.

So you think you would lose your job at Sunwing or Canjet if foreign pilots were only allowed to operate in Canada under a true 1:1 reciprocal ratio?

[Biff]

Newcomer,

So sorry, must have been a slip of the keyboard. O and U are very close.

either stop these practices or have a real 1:1 agreement. Simple as that.

That's what we all want to see 1:1, at least we all agree on that. And guess what, that means we all "WIN" not just one individual.

You're a hard fella to follow!!! Here you state that you want to see 1:1. Funnily enough, you and a few of your buddies are disparaging the most vocal pilot in Canada who is trying to force the governments hand into doing just that!!

Your arguments are rapidly loosing validity with the vast majority of pilots. Oh well, nice try.

One suggestion for you, if you want to argue the topic, then argue the topic, quit trying to change the subject.

[monkey]

I think the reason people have a problem with gilles approach is because its directed at his employers competition for business practices that his employer also uses (via canjet). Further he only got involved in this when transat ran into financial difficulty despite the fact the sunwing has been doing this for a while (same as his own company with canjet) and it appears to be motivated against competition. If transat was really concerned about foreign pilots they could stop there own use of them tomorrow with canjet but they don't. To me it seems this is aimed purely at trying to remove a competitor and to me that makes this dirty pool.

[iflybigjetz]

Gilles, I salute you, support you and want to thank you for everything you do to help change this problem in our industry. I don't understand why ALL canadian pilots don't feel PERSONALLY concerned with this problem. This is a problem that affects us all in our working conditions, salaries and job security no matter where ( or for which company ) we work, have worked or aspire to work. Those criticizing your arguments and undermining your efforts should use their energy in joining the fight against this problem. This is OUR problem. We should all work for better work conditions as canadian pilots TOGETHER. If all the pilots in the country had even taken the time to write to their mps and signed the petitions, we would all already be further along.

Once again, thank you Gilles and keep up the good work! I stand behind you!

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I think the reason people have a problem with gilles approach is because its directed at his employers competition for business practices that his employer also uses (via canjet). Further he only got involved in this when transat ran into financial difficulty despite the fact the sunwing has been doing this for a while (same as his own company with canjet) and it appears to be motivated against competition. If transat was really concerned about foreign pilots they could stop there own use of them tomorrow with canjet but they don't. To me it seems this is aimed purely at trying to remove a competitor and to me that makes this dirty pool.

Monkey,

I am not Transat AT or Air Transat, I am a pilot working for Air Transat. I have no say in what Transat does or decides.

I have stated many times, I am as much against the foreign pilots at Canjet as I am at Sunwing. Early last year, I didn't even know about any foreign pilots in Canada. I only found out about it when ALPA made a call to arms early in the fall of 2011 when we layed off pilots while Canjet was hiring foreign workers. Later I found out, again through ALPA that Sunwing employed more foreign pilots than they had Canadian pilots on the payroll. That was my awakening call.

Lets look at proportions. Canjet employed 119 Canadian pilots and employed 32 foreign pilots. It's bad, and they use the LMO method which I totally oppose.

Sunwing employed 150 full time Canadian pilots last winter and employed over 200 foreign pilots.

This winter and under pressure, they employed 20 seasonal Canadian pilots but employed again over 200 foreign pilots. They had about 28 foreign pilots flying the 767 this summer, 56 foreign pilots flying the 4 wet-leased 737s this winter and obtained work permits for another 130 foreign pilots for a total of about 216 foreign pilots.

That is why I talk more of Sunwing than Canjet. They are both bad, but:

Canjet has 119 Canadian pilots and hires 32 foreign pilots.
Sunwing has 170 Canadian pilots (including 20 part timers)and hires 216 foreign pilots.

I am not protecting Canjet in any manner or form. If our actions against foreign pilots have any effect, they will have effect on all companies that abuse the system, not just the one that competes against my employer's owner.

Furthermore, my Union's position is that the Canjet contract should have never been signed and that the 737 that are operated by Canjet should have been operated by Air Transat with Air transat crew. In light of this, why would I want to protect Canjet at all ? It does not hold water.

So keep focused on the REAL issue and ignore those that want to make an issue of my hairstyle, my religion and the way I dress. Their only purpose is to draw attention away from a hot subject that has begun to put their toes to the fire.

Gilles

[OPEC6-Heavy]

FICU,

So you think you would lose your job at Sunwing or Canjet if foreign pilots were only allowed to operate in Canada under a true 1:1 reciprocal ratio?

No, not at all. It would actually be the opposite, more hiring.

Biff,

One suggestion for you, if you want to argue the topic, then argue the topic, quit trying to change the subject.

I never change the topic, I have always said I support the 1:1 fight. What I will do is challenge anything I feel is not correct. You need to read more of my opinions.

You're a hard fella to follow!!!

And take your time as I'm hard to follow.

[Biff]

I never change the topic, I have always said I support the 1:1 fight. What I will do is challenge anything I feel is not correct. You need to read more of my opinions.

Ok, here's where the confusion lies. In a different thread, your friend trey kule wrote;

And yes, when you read the threads, particularly the early ones, Sunwing is a accused of twisting, breaking rules (paraphrased), and posters are jumping in. The rules are there. Sunwing has obviously looked at them and is using them to make what they believe is a good business decision. Other companies who maybe cannot take advantage of them are in the background filing appeals, and it seems maybe have some people try to create a groundswell of petitions, letters, surveys....all apparently in the name of protecting Canadian jobs.

You responded with

trey kule,

+1

All kidding aside, I do agree with your points

So what is it? You stated that you agree with his points. One of his points was that he advocates that Sunwing is using the rules to their advantage. One of the rules is the 1:1 reciprocity, which obviously isn't being followed. I surmised from that quote that you are ok with the way Sunwing is interpreting the rules on reciprocity.

Now you state that you are in support of the 1:1 fight and always have being. It would appear you are not being as consistant as you claim you are being.

[complexintentions]

It would seem that Gilles is not in need of anyone to come to his defence, I am quite in admiration of his ability to eloquently take on all comers. Perhaps it helps to have facts and an eminently just cause on your side.

What I do find interesting is how the discussion veered wildly off course from examining the actual situation, to personal attacks and questions of individual's motivations and compensations. That's usually the first sign of a losing argument, when you begin to attack the man and not the facts.

Why don't we all stick to the issues at hand, that of companies doing an end run around the intent of labour laws (with the full complicity of the Canadian government)? And not worry so much about who's making the arguments, but instead the argument itself. It's pretty obvious that there are more then a few with agendas here, but what is the end goal? It should be, to protect the Canadian industry by protecting Canadian jobs.

Non?

[trey kule]

I have no say in what Transat does or decides.

Just as an aside,you certainly seem to want to have a say in what Sunwing does.

that of companies doing an end run around the intent of labour laws (with the full complicity of the Canadian government)

Exactly who is suggesting they are doing an "end run"? That fact is an emotional conclusion that seems to have been propogated by many.. To the best of my knowledge, they have not broken any laws. The Air Transit challange was dismissed. After all sorts of trying to put a stop to it by every means available they are still going ahead..The only people who think this was an end run or illegal are those who are cheering that their feet have been put to the fire.

My original point, as I am being quoted was that while this appears to be a quest for parity in hiring, it is , in fact, a planned attack on a competitor, and facts are being skewed...for example such as calling it a "end run" or illegal.. Or looking primarily at just one company, Sunwings...And explaining away your own company because...well they are not as bad. The challanges made at all leverls are against Sunwing..
We then had pilots appearing on these threads who challanged anyone who dared to suggest the motives were not based on competition..How could we not be in favor of parity? Well, I for one am all in favor of parity. but this has been defined by many as applying company by company over a relatively short time span. I do not feel that it is in the interest of all Canadian pilots to define parity in those rather narrow parameters.
But if you can look by this being just a Sunwing issue , you will see, as our government has, that on the whole Canada is doing better in this department.. Not at Sunwings. Not for the last few years...And darn,,,If they can maybe be successful in their business model and grow, it will even reach parity with them....But some people dont want Sunwings to be successful or grow..Fair enough.
But dont preach that all they care about is Canadian pilots..If they put hundreds of SunWings pilots out of work it would suit them just fine...And to many here cant see that..They just chant the slogan and drink the kool aid.
Be careful complex..What you sow, you shall reap.

[Takeoff OK]

The problem that you and some others seem to be glossing over is that Sunwing has used circumvention of the regulations (Yes; they have.) to gain significant market share. The result of this is a reduction in market share for all the other players, who (with the exception of Canjet) have being playing by the rules the whole time. This is simply wrong. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it. So let's drop the bs. If Sunwing ends up playing by the rules once they've achieved their target growth, well hey, isn't that great. The problem is, the damage is already done.

I don't think anyone here wants to see anyone go out of business. But wouldn't it be interesting to be able to reverse the clock and see exactly where Sunwing would be today without having cheated the system. I guess we'll never know. But if all of this discussion and arguing can prevent another scumbag outfit from coming on the scene and using the same methods to throw the market into further disarray, well then maybe -- just maybe -- we will have achieved something.

Edited for this: As far as Canjet is concerned (since you guys always complain that they aren't being targeted), they are equally scum. Their shenanigans have enabled them to lowball on their bid for the Transat flying, giving the AT BOD just the motivation they needed to screw their own subsidiary's pilots. There is no love lost on that front. But having said that, there is a difference: Canjet does not market their own product, or sell their own tickets. Their passengers are not Canjet customers. They provide lift for Group Transat under contract. It is, of course, a different side to the same issue.

[whipline]

Here's my problem. Transat started the whole "hiring" foreign pilots through Canjet. Sunwing opposed it and took it to the government. The government said it was legal. Sunwing followed suit. Now Transat's mad? Go look in the Mirror. Now we're left with this mess.

According to the government reciprocal does not mean 1:1, therein lies the problem.

Transat has now tried twice to put Sunwing out of business. We're not Canadian? What BS argument is next?

There's another minor point everyone is overlooking. If Sunwing is forced to hire more pilots and get more planes imagine what those planes will be doing come summer. Sunwing has a great product with the lowest costs. They won't be laying off they'll be cherry picking all the profitable domestic routes.

[Sunwing738]

On a side note, WG took delivery of its 25th aircraft in the fleet this winter. Thomson Airways 738, G-FDZE (Re-registered C-GDZE) was ferried from Newcastle to Toronto on the 10th of December, 2012. Only a few more aircraft to go till their target.

[60N30W]

Here's my problem. Transat started the whole "hiring" foreign pilots through Canjet. Sunwing opposed it and took it to the government. The government said it was legal. Sunwing followed suit. Now Transat's mad? Go look in the Mirror. Now we're left with this mess.

According to the government reciprocal does not mean 1:1, therein lies the problem.

Transat has now tried twice to put Sunwing out of business. We're not Canadian? What BS argument is next?

There's another minor point everyone is overlooking. If Sunwing is forced to hire more pilots and get more planes imagine what those planes will be doing come summer. Sunwing has a great product with the lowest costs. They won't be laying off they'll be cherry picking all the profitable domestic routes.

Whipline, I think you are a little off on your statement that Transat started the whole "foreign" pilot thing. Are you not forgetting Skyservice, Canada3000 and Royal, did they not all bring in foreign crews each winter?

Second thing, Canjet is an independent company, who got a contract from Group Transat to provide lift, how they crewed those planes was their decision and not that of Group Transat.

Some have mentioned that it is important to keep the facts straight...

As to cherry picking the profitable routes in the summer, good luck to anyone who thinks they can take on Air Canada and Westjet on the domestic market, there is a long list of airlines out there who have tried and failed. Sunwing management is well aware of that and highly doubt they will try to go down that route, as a matter of fact I think they have tried summer domestic a few times and things just don't seem to work too well.

Regards,

M.Jackson

[Takeoff OK]

Here's my problem. Transat started the whole "hiring" foreign pilots through Canjet. Sunwing opposed it and took it to the government. The government said it was legal. Sunwing followed suit. Now Transat's mad? Go look in the Mirror. Now we're left with this mess.

According to the government reciprocal does not mean 1:1, therein lies the problem.

Transat has now tried twice to put Sunwing out of business. We're not Canadian? What BS argument is next?

There's another minor point everyone is overlooking. If Sunwing is forced to hire more pilots and get more planes imagine what those planes will be doing come summer. Sunwing has a great product with the lowest costs. They won't be laying off they'll be cherry picking all the profitable domestic routes.

Can you please clarify: Are you saying Transat AT was telling Canjet how to staff their airline, or that they were just benefiting from the lower contract costs that Canjet offered through foul play? Both are dirty policies, but the onus is vastly different between the two situations.

As far as Sunwing opposing Canjet's practices in the past; well I bet every pilot in Canada wishes Sunwing had won that filing. (Does it exist?)

Transat trying to put Sunwing out of business: It is just that -- business. What do you think AC is going to try to do with Rouge? Price wars (the first instance I think you are referring to) are part of every industry. But questioning the actual voting percentage rights of TUI (which as everyone knows owns 49% of Sunwing, and has vastly greater amounts of capital than Sunwing) was not an unreasonable play by Transat. It didn't work. Get over it.

As to Sunwing cherry-picking the "profitable" domestic routes: Have at it. But just make sure it's done on a level playing field, with Canadian pilots. Let the market decide how the dust should settle. I doubt many would disagree.

[60N30W]

Here's my problem. Transat started the whole "hiring" foreign pilots through Canjet. Sunwing opposed it and took it to the government. The government said it was legal. Sunwing followed suit.

Whipline

One more thing, do you have any documentation about this?

Thanks

M.Jackson

[60N30W]

Well, I for one am all in favor of parity. but this has been defined by many as applying company by company over a relatively short time span. I do not feel that it is in the interest of all Canadian pilots to define parity in those rather narrow parameters..

trey kule

What would you suggest would be a better set of parameters than 1 for 1 and applying that to the direct relationship between two companies?

What would be in your opinion better for the interests of all Canadian pilots?

Thank you

M.Jackson

[trey kule]

deleted. double post

[trey kule]

I will try not to bore you with business models and philosophy and the economics of expanding and growing an airline, , and attempt to answer in simple terms. (that is not a reflection on your intelect, rather a gesture not to ...well, bore you with what you already know.)

The goal of 1.1 is fine, as long as it allows considerations for time. The goal of 1.1 is also fine if it considers the whole Canadian industry and does not focus on one company.

What I see has happened is Sunwings is growing. At this stage of their growth it behooves them to use foreign pilots for temporary seasonal work..That is an important destinction as we are not talking about foreign pilots taking full time jobs away from Canadians.

Now that model means that if you restrict your focus to only Sunwings and restrict your focus to a relatively short time frame you can make the case that it is unfair. You ignore the long term picture, or the whole industry picture and focus on just one company. What seems unfair now to Canadian pilots may just result in MORE Canadian pilots getting jobs in the long run and being used overseas during the seasonal cycles.

What I see, in my uniformed opinion is that Sunwings is eating AirTransit's lunch. The good folks at Air Transit did what companies do. Asked themselves .How do we deal with this., Their business model, excluding CanJet (which is just as bad 'BUT'..love that word) does not seem to be able to adapt to the Sunwings model..So they went on the attack..Fair enough..But the wiser people who can see the big picture have supported SunWing at every turn. When legal avenues did not work, there is alway the option of creating a groundswell of petition signing, letter writing pilots, if it is presented properly.

Now, we have an appeal to every navajo driver in Canada...Foreigners are taking your jobs!
Write the prime minister! Sign petitions...Contact you MP. It is all about Canadian jobs.....The government is allowing this to happen...Sleazeball government...
I have yet to see one..One ..Poster ask why if it is all so bad is Sunwings allowed to proceed. Well the fact is if you can get by the emotions and think a bit , maybe, just maybe, the "facts" being presented here are a bit biased.

The fact is most pilots in my opinion have very little understanding of the business end of the airline business, and it seems nowadays no interest much outside their own career advancement..That may be unfair, but no one is critically asking questions here.. They are just accepting what they are told in blind faith.( or as less diplomatic posters would put it...drinking the kool aid) .I have read posts saying what Sunwing is doing is illegal..It is not. That Sunwing is doing an end run..That the government is variously doing nothing, or allowing them to do it...It just is not so.. And if one actually looks at the numbers, the training costs would not make it viable at this stage to train seasonal Canadian pilots...But for every pilot there are many others who have jobs in Canada as a result of this business model

I hope you were asking the question legitimately and it was not just rhetorical.

To be clear. I am an expat. I dont live in Canada or work in Canada. I really am interested in what is good for Canadian pilots in the long run, and I hate to see them simply accepting everything they are told and joining the mob... As the wise King Julian said...." Quickly everybody, before we come to our senses"

[piloterror]

DELETED

[Jim la Jungle]

Trey Kule,

Who is Air Transit?

[60N30W]

Air Transit,was a Twin Otter operation that ran a STOL service from Ottawa to Montreal back in 1974. I think they must have started this whole foreign pilot thing by bringing in a few pilots from the NWT since they could not find anyone south of the 60th parallel who could land a Twin Otter on anything less than 2000 feet!

[60N30W]

trye kule I have cut out some of your response because all I wanted to discuss was what you think would be a better system for the benefit of Canadian pilots

The goal of 1.1 is fine, as long as it allows considerations for time. The goal of 1.1 is also fine if it considers the whole Canadian industry and does not focus on one company.

Why should one company get to benefit from the efforts of another company, from a commercial aspect? What you are suggesting is that Sunwing gets to claim they are applying reciprocity based on the fact that other Canadian carriers send pilots overseas but do not bring pilots into Canada and therefore those "credits" can be used by Sunwing, if I follow your logic. Something about that does not seem right to me, just imagine the uproar if Voyageur was turned down when requesting two or three work permits and told that Sunwing ( or any other carrier for that matter) used up this years foreign pilot credits for the entire country. Does not sound fair at all.

How do you define "working overseas/out of Canada"?

What I see has happened is Sunwings is growing. At this stage of their growth it behooves them to use foreign pilots for temporary seasonal work..That is an important destinction as we are not talking about foreign pilots taking full time jobs away from Canadians.

So you let Sunwing bring in foreign crews for a few years to help them grow, when does that stop? Next year they could say they need it cause they are adding even more Canadian gateways than planned, the following year they will say they need it because they are adding more destinations in the south than they originally planned, where does it stop? When will Sunwing, or any other company that adopts this practice be considered mature?

Now that model means that if you restrict your focus to only Sunwings and restrict your focus to a relatively short time frame you can make the case that it is unfair. You ignore the long term picture, or the whole industry picture and focus on just one company. What seems unfair now to Canadian pilots may just result in MORE Canadian pilots getting jobs in the long run and being used overseas during the seasonal cycles.

This may generate a few more Canadian jobs next year or the year after but that will stop when the next company starts up and brings in even more foreign pilots using some bogus excuse. The only national type policy that will work and protect Canadian jobs is that Canadian flying will be done by Canadian pilots. Barring that because we know the Canadian government does not care about workers and always sides with big business, is to limit the amount of foreign pilots by applying the principal of 1:1. Some companies may be disadvantaged in the short term but in the long term this will protect and more than likely create more long term, stable and high paying Canadian jobs, something that benefits everyone

I have yet to see one..One ..Poster ask why if it is all so bad is Sunwings allowed to proceed. Well the fact is if you can get by the emotions and think a bit , maybe, just maybe, the "facts" being presented here are a bit biased.

One could also argue that the facts presented supporting Sunwings business practices are also a little biased.

I hope you were asking the question legitimately and it was not just rhetorical.

I think by my answer you can see that I was asking the question for the purpose of good discussion and debate.

Regards,

M.Jackson

PS sorry about my use of colors I just can't get a grip on cut and paste like others.