Not flying and not getting any calls despite my efforts.

[cj555]

Pick the direction you want to go, target the companies that you would want to work for and will get you where you need to be going! i.e.; if you wanna fly floats.. why the hell are you sending resumes to a navajo or king air op? If you want to go to the airlines.. why are you bugging the guys with a beaver and otter?

If my goal is the Airlines, what types of operators should I look for specifically? Does it matter what type I am on for my first job? Or does this only really matter after I gain at least 500 hours?

If I was to answer my own question, I would imagine if my goal is the airline I should target companies with a few single and twin turbines, and jets. IE I should not target companies with small single and multi piston aircraft. Is this correct?

[trey kule]

free advice...take it for what you are paying for it.

If you are a fresh CPL, PIC is king. You will hear about all those that went for shiny right seats jobs, and then a year or two later you will hear them bemoaning the fact they cannot get an upgrade because they have no PIC time..they simply dont understand how important PIC time is , and get caught up in the shiny plane.
Once you have a job, you will find out quickly, it is a job....not so much play time like at flight school.

A company that has singles and twins is a nice mix as you can stay with them and work your way through the aircraft..It is nice to see on a resume a pilot who has worked for a company for a few years. Not so nice when you see a resume with a pilot changing jobs every six months, particularily if they are getting PPCs and then leaving right away. AC and WJ dont seem to care about that, but some of the medium companies take it as an indication of how much loyality they can expect after they spend money training you. It is a bit of thread drift, but a PPC makes you more valuable, and thus challanges you to act with integrity, as it is easy to walk to a better paying job with a company that did not have to pay for your training.

To answer your question. At the start look for reputable companies that you can grow with as your experience improves. Dont job hop, and act with integrity..it will pay in the long run even if we all know of some sleazeball pilots who walked the day after they got a PPC. Personally, I think bush time is great, but if you spend a year or two of being unhappy (roughly 10% of your career) living in some place you dont like just to get experience , it is not worth it.

good luck, the hardest part of the journey is the beginning.

[AllClutch]

Here's the best advice you'll ever get and I'm giving it for free.
Get out now,
Become a plumber or a Doctor or a lawyer.
This industry is one successive kick in the teeth after another.
Some make it but lots don't, think back to everyone you did flight school with.

Is the front seat worth a happy marriage?
Xmas with the kids?
25-60 grand a year for 10+ years?

[X-Savior]

[cj555]

free advice...take it for what you are paying for it.

If you are a fresh CPL, PIC is king. You will hear about all those that went for shiny right seats jobs, and then a year or two later you will hear them bemoaning the fact they cannot get an upgrade because they have no PIC time..they simply dont understand how important PIC time is , and get caught up in the shiny plane.
Once you have a job, you will find out quickly, it is a job....not so much play time like at flight school.

To answer your question. At the start look for reputable companies that you can grow with as your experience improves. Dont job hop, and act with integrity..it will pay in the long run even if we all know of some sleazeball pilots who walked the day after they got a PPC. Personally, I think bush time is great, but if you spend a year or two of being unhappy (roughly 10% of your career) living in some place you dont like just to get experience , it is not worth it.

good luck, the hardest part of the journey is the beginning.

Thanks for the great advice Trey Kule.

When you say PIC is king, would it be a better idea to start out by getting an instructor rating and loggin 500 - 800 hours of PIC before moving on? I would imagine that going to the ramp (in 99% of cases) will get you in the right seat, but wouldn't give you PIC time for a couple years. Or is there a rule of thumb such as "the further north you go on the ramp, the faster you'll log PIC time (because of high turn over)?" Just a guess there, but interested to hear peoples opinions based on experience.

The question of instructing vs ramp wages on, its really tough to say!

[AllClutch]

Ramp at perimeter,
Drive to Winnipeg and throw yourself at the feet of their HR lady.
Put in 1 go hard year of throwing bag ect.
Make flight line 1.5 - 2 years later your a metro 3 Captain and the worlds your oyster.
You can move onto the dash-8 or just on up to the airlines.
Way better than instructing.

[cj555]

Ramp at perimeter,
Drive to Winnipeg and throw yourself at the feet of their HR lady.
Put in 1 go hard year of throwing bag ect.
Make flight line 1.5 - 2 years later your a metro 3 Captain and the worlds your oyster.
You can move onto the dash-8 or just on up to the airlines.
Way better than instructing.

I'm with you on that one. I really like Perimeter, and would love to get there. But I'm sure I'll have to get in line, as I'm sure they have no shortages of resumes...it sounds like a great place to work.

[Ramjet555]

If you make the sacrifices and put in the effort you WILL get a job.

Sorry,
I can tell you another view, of what I've seen.

The "Road Trip" might be correct in times when there is lots of hiring and lots of vacancies.


A long time ago, I did several driving trips looking for a job and once did 20,000 K with no luck.

The resume and phone did work, every single job I've had came as a result of a resume, a phone call, a phone interview and in rare cases, a test flight. Contacts and networking are also very important.
I'd suggest you spend the time networking rather than driving unless you are on a very good lead
that makes it worth while taking the risk.

[Mr.Blonde]

The "Road Trip" might be correct in times when there is lots of hiring and lots of vacancies.

A long time ago, I did several driving trips looking for a job and once did 20,000 K with no luck.

I'm with you on that one. I'm on my 2nd road trip in 3-months. And now it's been 3-weeks that I slept in my car/tent/friendscouch/cheap motel, eating tuna can and KD. And what I see, is the road trip worth it in spring only. Otherwise, you're always 2/5/7/14 days too late, a local guys just got the only job available. or they just don't hire because things slow down

[flytarp]

Mr. Blonde, you're at SDF ? I used to fly metros there everyday. 12 years ago.

[Mr.Blonde]

Mr. Blonde, you're at SDF ? I used to fly metros there everyday. 12 years ago.

I would like to be there working but SDF in french it's "Sans Domicile Fixe", that means I live in my car, no fixed home

[LTD]

Here's the best advice you'll ever get and I'm giving it for free.
Get out now,
Become a plumber or a Doctor or a lawyer.
This industry is one successive kick in the teeth after another.
Some make it but lots don't, think back to everyone you did flight school with.

Is the front seat worth a happy marriage?
Xmas with the kids?
25-60 grand a year for 10+ years?

Lollll!! Sad but true..

Besides the "get out now" comment. Everything in this post is 100% true. Whether one decides to get out or not is a very personal decision..

It's tough as hell. If you're lucky enough to "make it" its a fun way to make a living, but sacrifices are too abundant to enumerate here.

To all those hating on ramp jobs, I started on the ramp early in 2009. They said two years before I would start flying. But six months later, they needed someone bad, so I got lucky with only 200hours. Today, less than 4 years after I started on the ramp, I have 3400h all turbine, half of which is as PIC and MPIC 703 and 704. Pretty decent if you ask me. The guys I was working the ramp with in 2009 are now on a airbus 330 and Q400 and are good friends of mine.
Just my opinion not to overlook the opportunities that working the ramp can lead to, I actually liked it, made A TON of friends and contacts in the industry. Gotta start somewhere...
Good luck.

[Lost Lake]

From what I've seen, for every LTD, there are dozens who are not so lucky. Caveat Emptor

[Rowdy]

Research research research. That is the key in this industry, and watching avcanada for that research is like reading the national enquirer or listening to fox news! Make contacts, talk to people who actually work in the area of the industry youre interested in. Pick their brains, read all you can about the operations. There is incredible amounts of info out there that wasnt available to the guys before us. THANKS INTERWEBS!! KNOW what you're getting yourself into. Have a plan based on all the variables, and then HAVE TWO BACKUP PLANS and you'll do alright. As I said before, if your goal is corporate there are certain ways to get there, if your goal is airlines.. there are certains paths that will make it easier and more straightforward.. if you wanna be a derelict coastal float dog, follow me! haha in jest of course.. I went about it the wrong way, but I still had fun and made decent money.

You WILL look back at all of the naysayers and all the information thats being presented to you in a few years and go 'damn.. shoulda listened to so and so and not been such a stubborn little prick' (not saying you are a prick..) . I know I have and quite a few of the guys I went through this with have done the same.

Dont just blindly trundle into aviation after spending this much time and money getting licences hoping to find a job anywhere and then complain five years from now when you're relationships are all shit, your friends havent seen you in years and you're broke, working 5- 14hr days a week.

Be a proffesional about this. It is not a hobby, it is not always fun, it is not EASY by any stretch of the means. BUT if you've researched enough, planned your route, made backup plans and gone about it with the right attitude.. you'll come out happy and where you want to be.

Also another good point, the right attitude will make you many friends along the way. Guys and gals that'll help you out, give you advice, commiserate and, in turn you can help them when they need it too. There are only a couple of other industries that can promote such a brotherhood, and lemme tell ya, so far, we've done a poor job of it, but it still happens

[cj555]

Great post Rowdy

[SweetMango]

Hey Guys,

New to this forum, and long time reader, but I decided I wanted to share my experience so I signed up.

I feel the same way as the OP, and I agree with all the advice. I have a analogy that might crack some up.

Once in a while I feel aviation is like a horror movie.

overall your terrified, discouraged, frustrated, beaten, and then you get some hope from friends, AVcanada, news, and you start looking again, until you get kicked in the teeth again. Every time I get closer hour wise, my next job gets further away. Example, Air Sprint, 2000 TT for FO on PC-12... float jobs, was told get 500 TT, now its get 500 float time.

I guess no one wants me

[Rowdy]

From what I've seen, for every LTD, there are dozens who are not so lucky. Caveat Emptor

Most who make it in this industry have done it with 90% work and 10% luck.. and then they tell everyone how lucky they were to be in X place at Y time to get the job when it REALLY all boils down to attitude, research and effort!

[SweetMango]

Rowdy,

I agree most attribute it to luck, I disagree with the rest in my opinion and experiences, most of them who make it;

1. Family members who work at the same company.
2. They have family friends in the company.
3. They make the right friends to protect them.
4. They get lucky timing wise, coming when they need FO's.
5. They are just good at sucking up to everyone and just being liked.

The above attributions do not make one a good hard working pilot.

I seen it happen myself. I am sure what I said does not apply to all companies, the smaller ones especially avoid the above. Lots of hard working guys never make it, and lots of lazy ones do because they know how to play the game. Being on the ground for 2 years at Perimeter Air is no luck, and then a girl with a nice smile from YWG gets on a Metroliner in 4 months. While many hard working guys in Thompson are stuck for 18 months, even with a rampie line up being in place. I wonder what she did to skip 27 other guys.

These type of stories are coming from many larger companies.

I personally would not agree with ever working the ramp unless the company agreed to check me out on their entry level aircraft before my ramp work began. It also happens many companies say we will check you out this month, but it does not happen all summer. I believe my method would pay to be the most fair. The prospect of being called to fly anytime, when needed, would keep me motivated and honest working, while the company cant use the excuse of being to busy to ever check me out. Many companies will dangle the carrot with never intending to let the guys fly anyway because of local labor shortage. I know operators who will hire guys like that for 12 months and take advantages of them, never let them fly full time, mostly smaller operators will do that in this case.

my method most likely never to be accepted or used would pay to be the best balance for both parties on time and money invested for their own returns. The bonds can be applied up front for my setup.

The current setup promotes pilot prostitution below minimum wages. We are not even speaking about minimum wages. FO making 19,000 a year in towns with high living expenses, and your calling your mom to help you out or your working overtime on the ramp on days off just to survive. Not very healthy evioroment after you spend 50k on flight training. And these type of pilots do not make the best pilots, because most of them are willing to say yes to dangerous flying and are unable to make judgement calls that will keep them alive. They are YES man type of people.

Anyway, dreamers world.

[Rowdy]

You completely missed my point. Typical of anonymous internet discussions! Scroll up a few posts and re-read. It is not luck, even though I think a lot of people 'say' it is later on and it certainly isn't just from hardwork. Its a combination of things, mostly Effort.

There is NO LUCK! we make our 'luck' through research, connections, attitude and occasionally hard work. All of which require effort.

That girl you mentioned who was a CSA in Winnipeg was a perfect example.. she went to the front of the line, because she was smart enough to locate herself where she'd be seen by the appropriate people. It was not luck and I doubt in this day and age it was for 'other' reasons. Or EVERYONE would have known. She put herself where she'd be seen, worked hard, made connections and had the right attitude and got what she was after as a result. Humping bags in thompson, working hard and keeping your mouth shut does not get you noticed by anyone with the ability to get you on the flightline. Yes thats not fair. But the world isnt fair. Maybe next time you'll take the spot as a dispatcher in YWG or evaluate the options when offered a spot that isnt on the flightline.

[TR]

I am not aware of any girl with a nice simile bypassing the system. The system is very structured and you must meet several criteria items to be trained on the metro (multi ifr, ground schools, recommends, etc). Everyone being equal it is based on date of hire. The whole program was created to ensure fairness and opportunity. I plan to look into this tomorrow, and will report back.

TR

[DanWEC]

I agree with Rowdy 99%. Not quite 100. . There is that component of actual luck, I worked with a guy who was on the ramp for just a month or two when the owner had to pick up a plane, and needed a warm body for the right seat (sketchy). He grabbed the first rampie he saw, and he became the newest FO. Pretty crappy. Anyhow, trying to go for that is like planning on winning the lottery, its foolish to try for it.
You make your own luck, 99% of the time... That whole "habit of highly successful people" mantra.

I'm still fairly green, but have gone through some of the initial stages. I had an amazing first job of operating and flying a -325 for a construction company, it fell through. They got rid of the plane when I started. I had all my eggs in that basket and had quit my day job. Lesson learned. Have a backup plan!
Next I hit the road and got some offers. The biggest piece of advice I can give to another newbie coming across this thread, even at my elementary stage, is to BE MOBILE!! First get out there and meet people, then be prepared to go anywhere for a job. I did well, with a few offers by phone and on a road trip, then had to come back to a city because my wife got a job she couldn't pass up. Now I'm finishing an instructor rating, praying to god I get hired here since we will be staying here for a while (her job is worth it). It has really limited my options, but you do the best you can regardless. (Another good habit.)

[Rowdy]

I worked with a guy who was on the ramp for just a month or two when the owner had to pick up a plane, and needed a warm body for the right seat (sketchy). He grabbed the first rampie he saw, and he became the newest FO. Pretty crappy. Anyhow, trying to go for that is like planning on winning the lottery, its foolish to try for it.
You make your own luck, 99% of the time... .)

That sort of stuff does happen, albeit in VERY VERY rare instances. You're right, you cant ever go to the bank on such chances.

Hope the instructing gig works out for you Dan!

[TR]

I did find out that this bypass did occur a year and a half ago due to a data entry problem (wrong date entered on the list). The CP has complete control of the list and the data could not have been altered by anyone else. The bypass was not intentional and had absolutely to do with a nice smile, or being in Winnipeg “close to the mgt”. Again the program is set up to be fair and provide opportunities.

Perimeter is currently in transition to focus and grow our internal “future pilot program”. We plan to engage and prepare everyone in the program for great success in our company and for the rest of their aviation career. We have projects and resources underway that will allow us to fully crew all our aircraft internally and 100% from our “future pilot program” forever. We feel investing in our future pilots will help us maintain high standards (safety) and provide the resources we need to crew our aircraft when pilot advancement to the large airlines is in full swing.

TR

[Gear Jerker]

Every spring, Transwest Air hires 20-30 new rampies at once. Tidy up your resume and CV, network a little and see if you know somebody at the company who can hand your resume to a base manager. You might end up living and working somewhere that you would rather not be. Remind yourself of how hard it was to find your first job, and just do your job and be reliable day in and day out. You'll meet some great people, and you might find yourself a flying job elsewhere while gaining seniority. If you don't, after a year or less on the ramp or dispatching, you'll be right seat on a Navajo, King Air, Twin Otter, or 1900. You can progress in float flying, or MIFR, or both.