CPL signoff

[linus9]

Does anyone know if the PIC time you obtain during your commercial flight test counts or doesn't count toward your total time for your cpl?

I read through the DIVISION VII - COMMERCIAL PILOT LICENCE 421.30 Aeroplanes - Requirements and couldn't find anything saying it wouldn't count but some people around my local flying school are telling me it doesn't.

I have exactly 200 hours and I dont want to go pay another 300 bucks to get the 1.8 hours to make up for my flight test. (idk if that makes me cheap )

Any thoughts?

[gustind]

Yes it does. The instrument time however cannot be logged in your PTR, but it may be logged in your logbook.

[Colonel Sanders]

You are PIC during a flight test. You log it as such. See
the CPL flight test guide and the DPE guide.

some people around my local flying school are telling me it doesn't.

Were any or all of them an Authorized Person? If not,
their opinion is probably worth what you paid them for it.

[ant_321]

It should, but while I was instructing our sign off guy left and a few students had to send their things to transport to get signed off and they wouldn't accept it. They wouldn't accept the PIC for their PPL or CPL flight test but would accept their multi and IFR flight tests :S . So I guess it depends on who is doing the sign off.

[Colonel Sanders]

They wouldn't accept the PIC for their PPL or CPL flight test

Are you pulling my chain?! Let's look at the CPL flight test guide on TC's website:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/Publications/EN/TP1 ... 13462E.pdf

Who is pilot-in-command? The pilot-in-command should be the flight test candidate and, if the examiner is a Transport Canada employee, it will always be the flight test candidate.

Also, see TP14227E, Pilot Examiner Manual

the candidate will “act” as pilot-in-command

[MIQ]

It would really surprise me if it wouldn't count. Obviously you are the PIC on your flight test and as such you can also log PIC time. I had 44.6 total time when I did my PPL flight test and after that 1.3 flight of PIC I could apply for my license right away and got it without any problems.
Just one tip from my side, don't believe the talk from some people of your, or any, local flight school...

[gustind]

Just one tip from my side, don't believe the talk from some people of your, or any, local flight school...

Instead, blindly trust anything and everything you read on the interweb , especially Avcan.

[linus9]

Were any or all of them an Authorized Person? If not,
their opinion is probably worth what you paid them for it.

The only one who said it doesn't count towards the cpl signoff is the person who will be signing me off and also the same person who did my flight test. (so they definitely have some credentials) I was told I can count it in my personal log book but NOT in my ptr for the sign off

[jump154]

Just one tip from my side, don't believe the talk from some people of your, or any, local flight school...

Instead, blindly trust anything and everything you read on the interweb , especially Avcan.

But what if your instructor quotes something off Avcan? Can you both believe him and not believe him at the same time?

[Shiny Side Up]

They wouldn't accept the PIC for their PPL or CPL flight test

Are you pulling my chain?! Let's look at the CPL flight test guide on TC's website:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/Publications/EN/TP1 ... 13462E.pdf

Who is pilot-in-command? The pilot-in-command should be the flight test candidate and, if the examiner is a Transport Canada employee, it will always be the flight test candidate.

Also, see TP14227E, Pilot Examiner Manual

the candidate will “act” as pilot-in-command

What you people are failing to see is that there is no PIC requirement for the PPL licensing. Read carefully:

For the PPL:

(4) Experience

(b) The flight training shall include a minimum of:

(ii) 12 hours solo flight time...

and for the CPL it specifies different times for both PIC and solo requirements:

(4) Experience

(a) An applicant for a commercial pilot licence — aeroplane shall
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(i) have completed, subject to paragraph (b), a minimum of 200 hours flight time in aeroplanes, of which a minimum of 100 hours shall be pilot-in-command time including 20 hours cross-country pilot-in-command flight time, and
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(ii) following the issuance of a private pilot licence — aeroplane by Canada or another contracting state, have completed 65 hours of commercial pilot flight training in aeroplanes consisting of a minimum of:
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(A) 35 hours dual instruction flight time,

(B) 30 hours solo flight time including:[/b]

Note that for the CPL the student has both Solo and PIC time requirements. Technically it would be possible to meet the 100 hours PIC assuming it was gained before the issue of a protracted PPL and not meet the 30 hours of solo time. Flight tests for licensing requirements count as PIC time, but do not count as solo time.

I believe it was the Colonel who previously described the counting of solo time as "cheesy" if the pilot had a passenger with him? That this was "smoked" by TC licensing personel? Well it seems you're vindicated, since TC doesn't count time as solo time when someone else is on board, especially since this seat occupier is documented.

[Colonel Sanders]

SSU: the op specifically asked:

if the PIC time you obtain during your commercial flight test counts or doesn't count toward your total time for your cpl?

And the answer is "Yes". It most definitely counts towards the 200TT
required for a CPL because it is PIC time according to the TC guides.

If there is anyone here who had a CPL flight test recently, and the
Pilot Examiner claimed that the candidate was either giving or receiving
dual flight instruction during the flight test, please do speak up.

[Shiny Side Up]

Oh I know that, but having come across this issue before, it usually because someone has confused solo with PIC. Either the OP or whomever he asked. Its important to note that the two, when it comes to licensing, aren't the same. After all if our OP was really up on the CARs instead of going by second hand info he wouldn't have asked the question or at least with a bit of deduction came to the same conclusion.

[Colonel Sanders]

TC doesn't count time as solo time when someone else is on board

Hold on a sec. I'm getting confused (think Vx + Vy thread).

CAR 421.30(4)(a)(ii)(B) specifies "30 hours solo flight time"
which includes the 300nm "long" x/c.

Every CPL I've ever seen does that 300nm x/c with a buddy.
He's PIC on the way out, and buddy is PIC on the way back,
and they both get to count the 300 nm x/c, which grinds my
gears, because that's "solo flight time" which to me implies
that they are the sole occupant of the aircraft.

But TC accepts this "buddy buddy" 300 nm long x/c as
solo, therefore solo does not imply sole occupant of the
aircraft - merely PIC.

Therefore TC does not distinguish between solo and PIC
in the context of CPL flight training experience.

So why wouldn't the examiner in the right seat count
during the CPL flight test count as both PIC in the logbook
and solo in the PTR?

[Shiny Side Up]

Therefore TC does not distinguish between solo and PIC
in the context of CPL flight training experience.

Just because typically they don't, doesn't mean they can't or won't. You should know how TC works by now. The problem being that for all of that other solo time, the burden of proof lies on them and they don't press the issue of finding out. I suspect if they really wanted to give you grief they could try to deny you a CPL application if they thought that any solo time wasn't solo.

[Colonel Sanders]

Do your CPL candidates at your FTU do the 300nm
x/c as sole occupant, or "buddy buddy"?

Personally as an AP I won't sign off a CPL with "buddy"
time for his solo time, but I thought I was being the
old stick-in-the-mud when we discussed this last time.

Solo to me is not PIC. Solo means sole occupant of
the aircraft. At least, it does to me.

[Shiny Side Up]

Do your CPL candidates at your FTU do the 300nm
x/c as sole occupant, or "buddy buddy"?

All of the CPL students of my own that have been signed off have done it sole occupant. That said though I have been put in the position of having only someone's word that the trip was indeed done solo, and while I used some deductive ability, one must accept that the system does largely run on the honor system. How many have you signed off that you personally didn't actually see them leave on the trip?

Solo to me is not PIC.

Actually you got that the wrong way. Solo is always PIC, but sometimes PIC isn't solo.

[Av_Av]

RE: Solo v. PIC, from CAR 400.01(1):

"solo flight time" means, with respect to the flight time necessary to acquire a permit, licence or rating,

(a) in the case of a pilot, the flight time during which the pilot is the sole flight crew member, and

(b) in the case of a student pilot permit holder, the flight time during which the holder is the sole occupant of an aircraft while under the direction and supervision of the holder of an instructor rating for the appropriate category of aircraft.

This also means that the buddy/buddy method for the 300 NM X/C is legit as far as the CAR's are concerned.

As for the OP's question, the flight test time definitely counts toward your total time requirement and your 100 hours of PIC. But it probably doesn't count toward the 30 hours of "solo" required, because that time is "flight training":

"flight training" - means a training program of ground instruction and airborne training that is conducted in accordance with the flight instructor guide and flight training manual applicable to the aircraft used.

I think it can be argued that the flight test is not actually part of the "training" program, as it is a test, not a training flight. This, of course, is ambiguous, and subject to interpretation - which probably means that TC would "interpret" it against you.

[Colonel Sanders]

the flight test is not actually part of the "training" program

Not so sure about that. If I go to a puppy mill and take
a flight training course, is the cost of the flight test included
in the cost of the course?

If it is, then you could argue that the flight test is actually
part of the training program - you've paid for it, in a package
deal.

If the flight test is performed by an FTU staff member on
an FTU aircraft, that further makes the argument that it's
part of the training program, because both are provided
to the candidate by the FTU because he paid them for
the training program.

None of which matters in the slightest to TC, I know.

[Beefitarian]

What if you take a non pilot passenger? Girl friend, spouse, parent, pet or something.

[Colonel Sanders]

That's ok, because obviously your parakeet or non-pilot
girlfriend didn't help you fly the airplane.

Bonus points for joining the Mile High Club during the
300nm x/c and stapling the photo proof into your logbook.

[Beefitarian]

If I could figure out how to do stuff like that my posts on here would probably be more popular.

Funny story in a way. I went with another guy to do his 300 nm trip. After he completed his we got caught by weather. So I did one by my self unintentionally because he took the bus home.

[Shiny Side Up]

That's ok, because obviously your parakeet or non-pilot
girlfriend didn't help you fly the airplane.

How would one know that said girlfriend is a non flyer though? One would have to take the student's word for it no? Unless of course maybe one did some investigating... but then one sees now why TC lets it slide.

A parakeet of course would be a no go, since the student pilot could query it for flying tips, the parakeet often being the more expert flier.