Questions about renewing my rating, been a very long time!!

[Cat Driver]

The internet is an interesting arena for human interaction and we get some truly different perspectives here.

Part of the problem may be the level of training different people are discussing, in this forum we sometimes get new instructors or pilots who are thinking of being instructors.

If that's .'s idea of appropriate educational technique then I can't wait to do it differently.

By all means you are free to instruct in any manner you wish, your success will be determined by the availability of students and eventually how much you can charge for your instructing.

It is in the end driven by the marketplace.......mediocre instruction results in low pay. First class instruction results in top pay.

I am not really concerned when I read some anonymous poster expressing their opinion of how I teach or my personal interaction with my students.

Here is a suggestion photofly, advertise your availability as a flight instructor and ask for the same rate of pay I charge and get.

It is that simple.....

[photofly]

My experience of training - not just flight training - as well as other things in life, is that the more you charge for something, the more you can tell people how great it is. And the more incentive they have to fool themselves into believing you, lest they have to admit they're being screwed.

Some of the absolutely best flight training I've ever had was almost embarrassingly cheap. And the worst was among the most expensive.

If you honestly believe that price has bearing on quality, then you're an even bigger fool than you sound.

[Cat Driver]

If you honestly believe that price has bearing on quality, then you're an even bigger fool than you sound.

Fool huh?

O.K. maybe I am but how do you account for the provable fact that " all " of my clients were from referrals from former clients...??

Oh and " all " of my clients were already licensed and mostly very high time pilots?

Were they all fools also?

[photofly]

If you honestly believe that price has bearing on quality, then you're an even bigger fool than you sound.

Fool huh?

O.K. maybe I am but how do you account for the provable fact that " all " of my clients were from referrals from former clients...??

Oh and " all " of my clients were already licensed and mostly very high time pilots?

Were they all fools also?

I'm sure your training is fantastic. After all you tell me that it is, and I have no reason to doubt you. But if it is, it has to be more helpful to your students than many of your soi-disant educational posts on here (which, to be fair, you give away free, so one mustn't grumble.) Maybe you step it up a notch or two, for money. Who can say.

You are, however, the only instructor I've heard of who posits price as an indication of quality and then boasts about how much he charges.

[Cat Driver]

You are, however, the only instructor I've heard of who posits price as an indication of quality and then boasts about how much he charges.

O.K. that is an interesting comment.

So in your opinion quality and price are not related?

I do not connect the fact that I was able to successfully operate a flight training business that was able to charge a fair price as boasting.

Unless of course you think that all flight instructors should strive to give quality training for the lowest remuneration possible.

This comment deserves at least one more response.

If you honestly believe that price has bearing on quality, then you're an even bigger fool than you sound.

I worked directly with the underwriters of Lloyds of London to give flight instruction to a quality that was allowed Lloyds to issue reduced cost insurance to all clients who successfully passed my training course.

Therefore it follows that Lloyds of London must also be fools..correct?

[photofly]

., it's starting to dawn on me why you find a discussion about elementary aerodynamics to be so threatening. I take it all back, every word of it, and wish you well.

[North Shore]

Rather than just sniping at each other, do either of you two hotshots have anything of value to add to the original question - you know, the one asking about renewing an instructor rating...

[Cat Driver]

Why thank you photofly, of course I would find a discussion about elementary aerodynamics to be threatening.

It makes perfect sense that I am stuck with advanced training because I do not understand elementary aerodynamics.

And I am also way out to lunch in my belief that when posting advice and comments here on a flight instructors forum it is not proper to advise the new instructors to strive for perfection.

Just imagine what damage that mindset might do to the flight training industry......

......if all instructors were competent enough to demand high pay the flight schools would be forced to actually pay a living wage to flight instructors.

No we wouldn't want that to happen.

[photofly]

Rather than just sniping at each other, do either of you two hotshots

Ouch, that hurts.

have anything of value to add to the original question - you know, the one asking about renewing an instructor rating...

You're right. No. Sorry.

[Cat Driver]

Rather than just sniping at each other, do either of you two hotshots have anything of value to add to the original question - you know, the one asking about renewing an instructor rating...

Obviously not, but look at the positive side of this..

.....it keeps the forum active....

On the other hand why don't you just ban me and you won't have this problem.

You can easily do it so have at it.

[Trematode]

., photofly never once suggested that he would do a mathematical brain dump of what was talked about in the other thread, if he was instructing.

Photofly, . has a lot of experience.

Now kiss and make up, guys.

[Cat Driver]

Trematode, thanks....but....

.......I sometimes get tired of working in my garage on my Cub project and this is my relaxing hobby...

......at the moment I am rearranging all my tools as I bought a new tool box yesterday to better sort out all the tools I have collected over the decades.

I am sorting it all out and when I find I have three of any tool I am putting them in a box and I am giving them away.

[photofly]

<smooch>

I teach part time in an adult numeracy programme, and I spent a very rewarding couple of hours this morning helping a regular student of mine learn to subtract small numbers with fractions from other small numbers with fractions. Judging by the way things went I'd say I have a fairly good grasp of how to teach subjects at a level that's appropriate to the student's needs.

[Colonel Sanders]

learn to subtract small numbers with fractions from other small numbers with fractions

That would be 'way over most pilot's heads

As a flight instructor, with the vast majority of students,
you focus on what they need to know - not what
is nice to know. You try to simplify stuff as much as
possible, so that they have some small hope of retaining
it and actually being able to use it in the cockpit.

For example, someone in a light SEL trainer wants to
compensate their approach speed for being not at max
gross.

I tell them to just knock off 5, either mph or knots. It's
not perfect, but they are unlikely on final to be able to
perform in their head the division of a four digit number
by another four digit number, and then calculate it's square
root, and then multiply that result against the max gross number,
which is how you get the perfect answer which might be
one mph off my number, which they can't fly that precisely
anyways.

Proof by example. 172 max gross is 2300 lbs, current
weight is 2000 lbs. Adjustment factor is

sqrt(2000/2300) = 93.25% (easy to do in your head)

70 mph at 2300 lbs x .09325 = 65.275 mph

I was off a quarter mile per hour.

In mathematics, engineering, software and teaching,
simpler is always better. Excessive complexity is always
a disaster.

I know that "knock off 5" is sure to upset you Photofly
because it isn't the perfect theoretical answer, but it is a
very usable practical one.

Not sure if you fly twins or not, but I tried really hard to
come up with a survivable, simple receipe for dealing
with an EFATO in a light twin:

www.pittspecials.com/articles/MultiTakeoff.htm

[photofly]

I know that "knock off 5" is sure to upset you Photofly
because it isn't the perfect theoretical answer, but it is a
very usable practical one.

Not at all, Colonel - I think it's an excellent answer to have to hand while in the pilot's seat of an aircraft. There are times, like seated on a comfortable sofa in a warm place of an evening, when it's appropriate to discuss theory, for those who are interested, and there are other times when it's appropriate to have to hand "good enough" quick answers to questions.

BTW, for the record, I'm not a flight instructor, I don't play one on TV, and none of the questions or comments I've made have been from the point of view of giving instruction to others. They're merely to satisfy my own curiosity. I don't have any responsibility to decide what other people should have to know - in theory or practice - before being pilots or instructors and can therefore exercise my right not to have an opinion on the subject.

[Trematode]

Trematode, thanks....but....

.......I sometimes get tired of working in my garage on my Cub project and this is my relaxing hobby...

......at the moment I am rearranging all my tools as I bought a new tool box yesterday to better sort out all the tools I have collected over the decades.

I am sorting it all out and when I find I have three of any tool I am putting them in a box and I am giving them away.

Yeah, i think we're all here because we enjoy relaxing at the end of the day, and seeing what our fellow pilots have to say about certain things.

I for one enjoy your contribution, and find that you usually always spur on interesting conversation with your great questions (usually questions born from your personal experiences).

[Colonel Sanders]

What astonishes me about people (especially here) is
that according to them, the following is carved in stone:

YOU MUST LIKE SOMEONE TO LEARN FROM THEM

And "everyone knows" that the more you like them, the
more you will learn from them. And, "everyone knows"
that the less you like someone, the less you will learn from
them.

This is because someone's IQ is directly proportional to
how much you like them.

**** END OF NEW AGE NONSENSE ****

The above is complete poppycock but is apparently woven
into everyone's DNA or something. It cannot be contested.

Uh huh. I have worked with some very nasty, unpleasant
people that would happily whore out their mothers if it would
help them one teeny tiny iota.

However, just because they are not nice people, and you
don't like them, doesn't make them stupid. Some of them
are going to be an awful lot smarter than you.

I have learned some very valuable (and painful) lessons from
some very unpleasant people. I would be pretty stupid if I did
not.

You don't have to like someone, to learn an awful lot from
them. Time to leave the Fisher-Price playpen behind. Remember,
there's no crying in the cockpit.

[trey kule]

I must be dumber than an orange because I just cant make the connection between most of these posts and the question originally asked..

So, to the OP.. I hope you will seek out the answers from a bit more reliable sources than it seems we have here (even if you dont like them ) Please PM me your progress as I have an interest in following the same path when I retire.

Merry Xmas

[Shiny Side Up]

What astonishes me about people (especially here) is
that according to them, the following is carved in stone:

YOU MUST LIKE SOMEONE TO LEARN FROM THEM

That's not actually the whole truth. To learn from someone you have to respect them. Its a subtle difference but bear with me. It is hard for most people to learn from someone whom they don't respect. Why? Because somewhere at the back of their mind they're constantly wondering if said person is screwing with them on some level. Remember the cardinal rule of instructing is no Bullshitting. If someone doesn't think they can trust you to give them the straight shit, it forever colors everything else they might learn from you. At some point, the signal to noise ratio becomes unusable.

This being the internet it suffers heavily from it. Its all second hand information, its heresay. Few of us can actually observe how each might actually perform, so we have to judge by what one types. Is it logical and reasonable? How much bullshit does it contain?

I've run into a lot of people in this endeavor and I'll say that some have some interesting things to learn from, but its really friggin hard to tell how much of it is genuine without directly seeing hands on the stick so to speak.

[Colonel Sanders]

To learn from someone you have to respect them

Not sure I totally agree with that. Some of the most valuable
lessons, I learned from people whom I would not leave alone
with my dog or cat. Serious moral and ethical deficiencies.
But that doesn't mean they're stupid - far from it.

And, they have no interest whatsoever in educating you. In fact,
that's the farthest thing from their mind. Their only sociopathic
use for you is, "What can they do for me, at any cost to them?"

However, despite their complete lack of interest in imparting
their knowledge and skill, it can happen. If you pay attention,
and watch what they do, and how they operate. Think of a
monkey trapped in a cage, watching his handler spin a combination
lock on the hasp. There is no teaching going on there whatsoever,
but despite that, there can be plenty of education.

[Shiny Side Up]

However, despite their complete lack of interest in imparting
their knowledge and skill, it can happen. If you pay attention,
and watch what they do, and how they operate.

Well I guess in this case we're just quibbling over semantics, in that I would view this as a different type of learning, passive rather than active. You learn lots about them rather than from them if you catch my drift. For example, I passively learn lots about my cat every day from observation, but she's never actively engaged in teaching me anything.

Most things learned from avcanada, for instance, are largely due to passive observation rather than active constructive transmitting recieving, though lots of those providing fodder for the former like to think they're doing the latter. I will admit to being guilty of that as anyone else, human beings far prefer to transmit than recieve. Part of the appeal of the forum though is the idea that we may sometimes engage in active learning here, though it is rare. It is very engaging when one reads something here that does make one reconsider their own position or thoughts on a subject, or at the very least revise them however so slightly. Even more, I like the idea that I might be able to sway someone else's line of thought with my own reasoned arguements in the spirit of lively debate. One of the more depressing thoughts about this forum is the possibility that no one here is possibly swayed or even many time reasoned with, they are all static characters.

[Colonel Sanders]

It is very engaging when one reads something here that does make one reconsider their own position or thoughts on a subject, or at the very least revise them however so slightly

"engaging"?! Well, I guess that's one word for it.

I used to think I understood the power curve. The
Vx/Vy thread convinced me that I know absolutely
nothing about it, and that everything I thought I
knew about it is incorrect. I now dread the idea of
teaching Range & Endurance because I am completely
ignorant on the topic!

[photofly]

Most things learned from avcanada, for instance

Many of the things I learn "from" Avcanada I learn through my own research in other places in order to answer other people's questions, or to quibble with answers someone else has already given. Then the act of trying to write about what I just learned is the sine qua non of real learning, because It's not until you try to explain something to someone that you realize what you know and what you don't know.

[Shiny Side Up]

"engaging"?! Well, I guess that's one word for it.

I used to think I understood the power curve....

I wasn't really referring to those types of discussions unless one entered into it at a very basic level of knowledge about said subject. Discussions of Newtonian physics aren't going to have a different outcome and aren't going to change. Discussions on how people think about things (my favorite of course being flight training) is a different matter, especially when there are a lot of theories about the various aspects of it and it has evolved over a short time. There's room for debate.

[AA150730]

To those of you who answered my orginal question and offered your advice, thank you very much for your insight.
May I also add I am very surprised that such a simple request for advice would produce such long and sometimes "spirited" discussion!!!
Merry Christmas to every one!!!