Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

morningwood wrote:
Gilles Hudicourt wrote: The wet-lease pilots do not require work permits to fly in Canada. Only the dry-lease pilots do. So when we talk of pilot work permits, we only talk of the ones flying the dry-leases, and they do not rotate. Only the wet-lease pilots do. So the number of work permits are in no way inflated by rotating pilots as you insinuate."
Actually Gilles, this is incorrect.
The wet lease pilots are operating under a work permit, and they are rotating, which does increase the overall number of work permits required to operate the same number of aircraft.
As I said previously, we all want to see reciprocal pilot numbers, but we need to keep the facts straight.
The Immigration and refugee protection regulations

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regu ... .html#h-90
186. A foreign national may work in Canada without a work permit
(s) as a member of a crew who is employed by a foreign company aboard a means of transportation that
(i) is foreign-owned and not registered in Canada, and
(ii) is engaged primarily in international transportation;
The Travel Service pilots are foreign nationals, working in Canada as a member of a crew who are employed by a foreign company aboard a means of transportation that is foreign owned, not registered in Canada and is engaged primarily in international transportation.

Now why would they obtain a work permit when the regulations say they do not need one ?
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trey kule
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by trey kule »

Mbav8

Perhaps you are correct , and my reading comprehension is at a grade five level. Perhaps that is why I find it so difficult to accept the grade 1 school yard logic presented...

Besides, actions speak louder than words......so lets have a look at the rule bending question....

First, those who think that compaines are not being fruadulant, benders, or whatever.

Well, there is me, of course,, and it seems from their actions these folk as well
We tried taking to the Senate
We wrote to our MPs
We wrote to the Immigration Minister
We wrote to the Labour Minister
We wrote to Transport Minister
We wrote to the Prime Minister
We sent a 2500 signature Petition to the Immigration Minister
We copied the Petition to the House Committee on Immigration
We did a pilot survey that we copied to HRSDC
We collected resumes of qualified applicants that we delivered to HRSDC
We wrote to HRSDC to inform them about the type rating requirements
We wrote to Immigration Canada to inform them about reciprocity and wet-leases
We wrote to Transport Canada to complain about the Foreign Licence Validation Certificates
We contacted the press
I wrote to the Canadian Transportation Agency to tell them that Sunwing had more foreign pilots on staff than they had Canadians and more short term leases from from foreign airlines than they had long term leases.
I wrote to Transport Canada to tell them that in the US, the practice of dry leasing aircraft from an foreign airline and then contracting out the pilots to fly the same aircraft from the same foreign airline was an illegal practice called "sham dry-leases". In Canada, this is normally also impossible, since there are no provisions in the CARs that allow foreign licensed pilots to fly for 705 airlines. CAR 421.07 lists all the purposes for which a FLVC may be issued to foreigned licenced pilots and flying for Canjet and Suwing does not figure on the lits. Our Minister invoked an article which gave him Ministerial powers to provide FLVC in exceptional circumstances and used it to provide foreigners with FLVC to fly for Canadian Airlines thus allowing the practice of sham dry leases in Canada.

All these actions we took had no effect whatsoever
When the word "we" is used in the above, my low level comprehension skills interpret that to mean Mr H, and whoever he could convince of the injustice and unfairness of it all...


Which brings us to who thinks the companies are not being or acting like one of the many derogatory adjectives used to describe them...

Well, there is Mr. H, of course, and well, from what I can tell, a group of very short sighted, narrow minded, self serving, feeling entitled pilots that have no real understanding of the aviation business.
They will cut off their noses to spite their faces as they simply cannot see a few years down the road, and see this whole issue in the most simplistic personal way.

But that is just the opinion of someone who has low level reading comprehension skills, or is being antagonistic.

BTW..when it comes to reading comprehension, were you taking my Australian example completely out of context intentionally to make a point?
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Jean-Luc Monette
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Jean-Luc Monette »

trey kule wrote:... as they simply cannot see a few years down the road, and see this whole issue in the most simplistic personal way.
One could also argue that, in fact, what we see a few years down the road isn't in the best interest of Canadian pilots if things continue the same way... (?)
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trey kule
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by trey kule »

I would consider that a fair argument if you could provide some reasoning for that line of thought.

It is cheaper , and more profitable (generally) to have your own aircraft and full time crews rather than contracting. Kind of like renting a car..Cheaper if you need a car for one month a year, but not so good if you can use the car all year.. So, I see, in the very fundamental issue, that a better profit can be made if you get to the point where you can utilize your own aircraft year round with your own crews (Canadian)

On the other hand there are also some other issues that need to be looked at by the various political and government departments in terms of , for lack of a better phrase..."the big picture"

Thats my take on the long term and why I see it as it is, I would welcome your reasoning and the rationale behind it. Perhaps some sound rationale would actually make for a reasonable basis to work on this..As it is now, it is just that it seems unfair to some so it must be wrong.
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Gino Under
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Gino Under »

Trey

A number of your comments and observations suggest you're right. So, for your admitted fifth grader's understanding, comments and observations regarding NOT the Canadian airline industry but the charter airline scene I don't conclude you know much about it nor does it sound like you know much about or even appreciate what impact this is having on whatever job market exists, might exist, or used to exist in this country.

As I, for one, approach retirement I find it disgusting that such a lame excuse from any operator to not hire Canadian pilots without a type rating when there are an ample number of ready, willing and able Canadian pilots available, simply disgusting.
What about the need for the lesser experienced Canadian pilots who would gain invaluable experience for not only themselves but for their employer if they were to be given the chance? It's how our home industry survives. Remember the times when YOU had to struggle to climb that ladder. Gotta pay yer dues. (yeah, right!)
Well, what do you do when the better opportunities are handed to foreigners? Nothing?

Business model? Bullsh*t!
The use of foreigners is only necessary until they establish their fleet. Horsesh*t!

We have laws in this country written by the very monkeys who are ignoring this issue seated in Ottawa.
If they can't, won't or don't enforce the very statutes and laws they pass into law then I say "off with their heads!"

You really need to spend some time thinking about this issue because I'm sure you have a fairly decent education and know better.

...and I DO respect your opinion.
Gino
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morningwood
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by morningwood »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
morningwood wrote:
Gilles Hudicourt wrote: The wet-lease pilots do not require work permits to fly in Canada. Only the dry-lease pilots do. So when we talk of pilot work permits, we only talk of the ones flying the dry-leases, and they do not rotate. Only the wet-lease pilots do. So the number of work permits are in no way inflated by rotating pilots as you insinuate."
Actually Gilles, this is incorrect.
The wet lease pilots are operating under a work permit, and they are rotating, which does increase the overall number of work permits required to operate the same number of aircraft.
As I said previously, we all want to see reciprocal pilot numbers, but we need to keep the facts straight.
The Immigration and refugee protection regulations

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regu ... .html#h-90
186. A foreign national may work in Canada without a work permit
(s) as a member of a crew who is employed by a foreign company aboard a means of transportation that
(i) is foreign-owned and not registered in Canada, and
(ii) is engaged primarily in international transportation;
The Travel Service pilots are foreign nationals, working in Canada as a member of a crew who are employed by a foreign company aboard a means of transportation that is foreign owned, not registered in Canada and is engaged primarily in international transportation.

Now why would they obtain a work permit when the regulations say they do not need one ?
Gilles
I have read the many post complaining about the rules being "bent", "broken" etc. etc.
Now you are complaining because the Company is going above and beyond what is required?
The foreign pilots may not be required to obtain a work permit to fly in Canada as you pointed out, but my guess is that the Company wanted to keep the foreign wet lease pilots working in Canada transparent and above board, knowing that certain individuals and competition airlines would be challenging the reciprocal wet lease agreements with its European partners.
Sunwing sent 4 wet lease aircraft to operate in Europe this year, and has brought in 4 wet lease aircraft to operate in Canada.
It is much cheaper to obtain a $100 work permit even though it may not be required, than to have an aircraft temporarily grounded by an overzealous inspector during a ramp check in YUL or CUN.
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morningwood
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by morningwood »

Also Gilles, maybe you could update us on the number of foreign pilots and aircraft that Canjet has brought in this year to operate for Air Transat?
How many Canadian pilots or wet lease aircraft were sent to operate in Europe this year by Canjet?
It can be hard to tell tone of voice in print and I'm not asking this to be a smartass or to rub mud in your face, but I am curious to know.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

morningwood wrote: Now you are complaining because the Company is going above and beyond what is required?
The foreign pilots may not be required to obtain a work permit to fly in Canada as you pointed out, but my guess is that the Company wanted to keep the foreign wet lease pilots working in Canada transparent and above board, knowing that certain individuals and competition airlines would be challenging the reciprocal wet lease agreements with its European partners.
Sunwing sent 4 wet lease aircraft to operate in Europe this year, and has brought in 4 wet lease aircraft to operate in Canada.
It is much cheaper to obtain a $100 work permit even though it may not be required, than to have an aircraft temporarily grounded by an overzealous inspector during a ramp check in YUL or CUN.

Sunwing, above and beyond ? What's next ? Santa Claus is for real ?

Here is one good reason Sunwing would want to get work permits for the Wet-Lease pilots:

There are two sets of Travel Service pilots working for Sunwing in Canada. One set that are there to fly the wet-leases, which require no work permits and no FLVC and another set of Travel Service pilots there to fly the Candian Registered aircraft, that require a work permit and FLVC. By providing a work permit and a FLVC to the wet-lease pilots, they are able to fly both sets of aircraft............
morningwood wrote:Also Gilles, maybe you could woulde us on the number of foreign pilots and aircraft that Canjet has brought in this year to operate for Air Transat?
How many Canadian pilots or wet lease aircraft were sent to operate in Europe this year by Canjet?
It can be hard to tell tone of voice in print and I'm not asking this to be a smartass or to rub mud in your face, but I am curious to know.
I already did , on this very thread, if only you would take the time to read.
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Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt on Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:37 pm, edited 4 times in total.
CD
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by CD »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
morningwood wrote:Also Gilles, maybe you could woulde us on the number of foreign pilots and aircraft that Canjet has brought in this year to operate for Air Transat?
How many Canadian pilots or wet lease aircraft were sent to operate in Europe this year by Canjet?
It can be hard to tell tone of voice in print and I'm not asking this to be a smartass or to rub mud in your face, but I am curious to know.
I already did , on this very thread, if only you woukd take the time to read.
Yup, he did a few times... I think the most recent might have been back on page 6 of 10:
Gilles Hudicourt wrote:Canjet's fleet is at 9 aircraft. Its core 5, plus 2 short-term dry-leases from XL Germany and 2 short term dry-leases Transavia France.

Although the two French aircraft are still on French Registry, they are dry-leases under CAR 203.

As things stand, Canjet has about 32 foreign pilots in Canada on LMOs.
I'm not sure how many AT pilots would have avoided the layoff based on the Canjet contract and Enerjet wet lease to Transat but I would imagine it would have been pretty close to most of them... :(
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

CD wrote: I'm not sure how many AT pilots would have avoided the layoff based on the Canjet contract and Enerjet wet lease to Transat but I would imagine it would have been pretty close to most of them... :(
The last figures I heard, AT laid off 57. There were 65 but several were able to keep their jobs with mitigation measures including several senior pilots who decided to retire.

Canjet hired 32 foreign pilots, so that would still leave 19 pilots out of a job. I just found out about the Enerjet contract with the rest of you, and do not know how many flights, hours or pilots it entails.
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morningwood
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by morningwood »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
morningwood wrote: Now you are complaining because the Company is going above and beyond what is required?
The foreign pilots may not be required to obtain a work permit to fly in Canada as you pointed out, but my guess is that the Company wanted to keep the foreign wet lease pilots working in Canada transparent and above board, knowing that certain individuals and competition airlines would be challenging the reciprocal wet lease agreements with its European partners.
Sunwing sent 4 wet lease aircraft to operate in Europe this year, and has brought in 4 wet lease aircraft to operate in Canada.
It is much cheaper to obtain a $100 work permit even though it may not be required, than to have an aircraft temporarily grounded by an overzealous inspector during a ramp check in YUL or CUN.

Sunwing, above and beyond ? What's next ? Santa Claus is for real ?

Here is one good reason Sunwing would want to get work permits for the Wet-Lease pilots:

There are two sets of Travel Service pilots working for Sunwing in Canada. One set that are there to fly the wet-leases, which require no work permits and no FLVC and another set of Travel Service pilots there to fly the Candian Registered aircraft, that require a work permit and FLVC. By providing a work permit and a FLVC to the wet-lease pilots, they are able to fly both sets of aircraft............
morningwood wrote:Also Gilles, maybe you could woulde us on the number of foreign pilots and aircraft that Canjet has brought in this year to operate for Air Transat?
How many Canadian pilots or wet lease aircraft were sent to operate in Europe this year by Canjet?
It can be hard to tell tone of voice in print and I'm not asking this to be a smartass or to rub mud in your face, but I am curious to know.
I already did , on this very thread, if only you woukd take the time to read.
wow, kinda feel like I just got bitch slapped by Gilles, BUT THANK YOU FOR NOT YELLING AT ME.
My son sometimes reads over my shoulder while I'm on the computer, so if you wouldn't mind, x-nay on the Santa Clausay.
Maybe something like " yea, and Richard Simmons is a vagitarian" might be better.

F-Reg pilots pilots also flying the C-Reg airplanes? Really Gilles?, you know that is not true.
You know as well as I do that the wet lease pilots are trained and tested in Europe using their SOP's, and the foreign C-Reg pilots are trained and tested here using Sunwing SOP's.
Hell, even the cabin crew are not allowed to cross over from the F-Reg to the C-Reg.
You might want to let the Chief Pilots office over at Sunwing know about that one. I'm sure they would be very interested to hear what you have to say.
I did read your post back on page 6 from Dec 05 or so, but since we've been getting daily updates on the Sunwing fleet, I thought that you might have some final numbers for us on the Canjet fleet.
Sunwing sent 4 wet lease aircraft and Canadian pilots to operate in Europe this year, and have brought in 4 foreign wet lease aircraft and pilots to operate here this year.
Did Canjet send any Canadian pilots or aircraft to operate in Europe this year?
Valid questions. No?
Let's stick to facts and not fiction.

Thank you for your reply CD.
It would have been nice if Transat had made an effort to keep the Canjet and Enerjet contract work in house instead of laying off their own pilots.
We all genuinely sympathize with you.
Like I've said many times, we all want to see reciprocal pilot numbers, but unfortunately we pilots have no say whatsoever in company policy or decisions.
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mbav8r
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by mbav8r »

Call this damage control;
http://skiesmag.com/news/articles/17760 ... quot-.html



Sunwing grapples with "training bottleneck"
Fast-growing Sunwing Airlines Inc. has laid claim to a large segment of charter flights to sun destinations, relying on Boeing 737-800s to meet surging consumer demand this winter.

Fast-growing Sunwing Airlines Inc. has laid claim to a large segment of charter flights to sun destinations, relying on Boeing 737-800s to meet surging consumer demand this winter.

Sunwing president Mark Williams makes no apologies for the seven-year-old company’s aggressive expansion, saying charters from Canada to southern vacation destinations are a competitive business.

Sunwing’s growth, especially its reliance on hiring foreign pilots in recent winters, has drawn the ire of rivals, notably tour operator Transat A.T. Inc.

Transat, WestJet Airlines Ltd., and Air Canada have raised concerns about Sunwing’s strategy of hiring pilots from abroad. But Williams said he prefers to place the spotlight on Sunwing’s ability to create more travel options for Canadians.

There are 33 Canadian cities on Sunwing’s route map this winter, including major cities in Western Canada, as well as big and small airports in Ontario, Quebec and Atlantic Canada.

The carrier’s parent, Sunwing Travel Group Inc., will be neck-and-neck in the 2012-13 winter season with Transat, with each holding roughly 35 per cent market share for flights south to sunny climes such as Mexico and the Caribbean, Williams estimates.

Stephen Hunter, Sunwing Travel’s chief executive officer, and his father Colin, who serves as chairman, had the vision to tap into Canadians’ thirst for winter getaways, said Williams.

Industry experts figure that Sunwing Travel’s revenue in 2012 exceeded $1.1 billion, rising gradually from $900 million in 2009.

About 70 per cent of the revenue comes in the period from November to May, or roughly during the colder months in Canada, Williams said.

Sunwing, which has steadily expanded over the years, is operating 29 leased Boeing 737-800s during this winter travel period – representing huge growth when compared to the airline’s humble beginnings with two aircraft in 2005.

WestJet Vacations and Air Canada Vacations are the other key players in the market this winter.

Sunwing flies 189-seat Boeing 737-800s on behalf of tour operators Sunwing Vacations and Signature Vacations, which are both part of Sunwing Travel.

In the 2013-14 winter travel season, Air Canada will have its fledgling discount operation, Air Canada Rouge, up and running to holiday hot spots, intensifying the battle for sun seekers.

“We’re keeping an eye out. We’re not afraid to compete. There will certainly be a focus from Air Canada on making that a success. We welcome the challenge of operating against them,” said Williams.

Sunwing Travel is controlled by the Hunter family of Toronto. The Hunters have a 51 per cent equity stake and 75 per cent voting interest in Sunwing Travel. International leisure firm TUI Travel PLC reached a deal in 2009 to acquire a 49 per cent equity stake and 25 per cent voting interest.

Toronto-based Sunwing Travel’s merger in 2009 with the Canadian operations of British-based TUI placed competitive pressure on Transat. TUI, through its First Choice Canada division, previously ran Signature and also oversaw the SellOffVacations retail arm.

In November, the Canadian Transportation Agency (CTA) issued a ruling in response to complaints about Sunwing entities allegedly having business decisions swayed by its foreign partner. In dismissing the complaints, the CTA concluded that “nothing indicates that TUI is able to exert control over the affairs” of Sunwing entities.

The CTA pointed out that Sunwing must operate a much greater number of planes in the winter than the summer due to shifts in seasonal demand.

“Sunwing’s business model has addressed the seasonality of the market by developing a year-round core fleet of aircraft, which it supplements through the leasing of aircraft from European carriers,” the CTA said.

Williams said Sunwing hires seasonal pilots from European carriers, including from TUI, but he is working with union officials to lessen the negative impacts on Canadian pilots.

The issue of hiring Canadian pilots is complicated by the need for such workers to be “type certified” on the proper aircraft. “There are Canadian pilots who do have experience but who aren’t trained” on Boeing 737-800s, explained Williams.

He said his company has 156 full-time and 20 seasonal Canadian pilots on the payroll. Those 20 seasonal pilots received training to qualify them to fly Boeing 737-800s. Sunwing absorbed $800,000 in training costs at $40,000 for each pilot.

To be fiscally prudent, Sunwing tries to budget as much as possible for new training. Still, to meet increased demand for flights, the carrier has added 172 seasonal pilots from Europe to fill the void this winter, compared with 186 last winter, said Williams.

He said Sunwing believes in “reciprocity,” namely making arrangements where possible for its Canadian pilots to fly in the summer in Europe.

Roughly 50 Canadian pilots from Sunwing were able to secure duties in Europe in the summer of 2012, still a far cry from how many foreign pilots have been hired to fly in Canada for the winter.

“There are a lot of moving pieces,” Williams said, adding that the economic slump in Europe has weakened travel demand there and led to fewer Canadian pilots being required in the summer.

“We have tried to balance the seasonality by finding work for our pilots and planes in the summer. Our planes don’t have the range to fly to Europe, so they’re only good for domestic or sun destinations because they can’t go transatlantic,” Williams said. “We’ve had a difficult time finding more summer work for our pilots.”

The Canadian Auto Workers union, which represents Sunwing pilots, is working with management to find creative solutions, said Ron Smith, director of transportation at the CAW.

“Our position is that we would like all the Sunwing pilots to be Canadian. But the company has a training bottleneck and it is a complex case,” said Smith, who acknowledges that emotions have run high on the issue of hiring foreign pilots. He said management understandably wants to spread out the training of Canadian pilots over several years to control expenses. As well, Sunwing is wary of spending money on training and then having pilots jump to another carrier.

“We like having good relationships but we also aren’t afraid to take on an employer. The growth in Sunwing’s flying over winter is what is causing the hiccup. They can’t meet the training demand,” Smith said.

Transat, Air Canada and WestJet are opposed to Sunwing’s practice of relying on short-term “wet leases,” which involve borrowing crews and planes from Europe.

Transat chairman Jean-Marc Eustache said Canadian fleets should have planes primarily from Canada and a “very substantial majority of Canadian pilots and crews.”

Union officials at the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), with represents Air Transat pilots, are also upset with Sunwing.

“As long as any Canadian pilot is unemployed, there should be no foreign pilots working here,” said Captain Bradley Small, vice-president of ALPA Canada. ALPA Canada estimates that two-thirds of Sunwing’s fleet has been leased from overseas.

In November, Transat laid off nearly 60 Canadian pilots, but they were trained on Airbus aircraft, not Boeing 737-800s.

“What’s going on at Sunwing is really unfair to Canadian pilots,” said Captain Sylvain Aubin, former president of the master executive council that represents Transat pilots. “They should be protecting Canadian jobs.”

Transat hires CanJet Airlines to fly some of its routes, but Small and Aubin defended CanJet’s limited hiring of foreign pilots, saying the carrier offsets the influx by sending Canadians to work in Europe in the summer.
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Takeoff OK »

mbav8r wrote: Transat hires CanJet Airlines to fly some of its routes, but Small and Aubin defended CanJet’s limited hiring of foreign pilots, saying the carrier offsets the influx by sending Canadians to work in Europe in the summer.
wtf?
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

morningwood wrote: I did read your post back on page 6 from Dec 05 or so, but since we've been getting daily updates on the Sunwing fleet, I thought that you might have some final numbers for us on the Canjet fleet.
Sunwing sent 4 wet lease aircraft and Canadian pilots to operate in Europe this year, and have brought in 4 foreign wet lease aircraft and pilots to operate here this year.
Did Canjet send any Canadian pilots or aircraft to operate in Europe this year?
Valid questions. No?
Let's stick to facts and not fiction.
You do not get daily updates on Sunwing, you get updates only when there are changes to the fleet, but Sunwing's fleet is augmented so often that it seems to you like daily updates.

Canjet's fleet has not changed since my last update on this thread.

Canjet did not send pilots to Europe, nor did they import their pilots through so-called reciprocity. They did worse, they used the LMO method which I despise. They claim there is a pilot shortage in Canada while my colleagues collect EI.
But that too, I have already written several times on this thread, as you know, as everyone here knows. What is your point exactly ?
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

morningwood wrote: It is much cheaper to obtain a $100 work permit even though it may not be required, than to have an aircraft temporarily grounded by an overzealous inspector during a ramp check in YUL or CUN.
Not to mention that the Travel Service Wet-Lease pilots are employed by Travel Service, to fly Czech registered Travel Service aircraft on wet-lease to Sunwing.

How would they obtain a Canadian work permit in the first place ? Sunwing provided fake documents stating they would be employed by Sunwing ? That's how work permits are obtained. With an employment letter.

On what basis did they get the work permit ?
With an LMO stating that there was a pilot shortage in Canada or through reciprocity claiming that Sunwing had sent an equal number of Canadian pilots to Travel Service ?

Sunwing sent one aircraft to Travel Service last summer. There are 8 or 9 Travel Service aircraft in Canada right now.

It's a great scam, any way you look at it.
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morningwood
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by morningwood »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
morningwood wrote: It is much cheaper to obtain a $100 work permit even though it may not be required, than to have an aircraft temporarily grounded by an overzealous inspector during a ramp check in YUL or CUN.
Not to mention that the Travel Service Wet-Lease pilots are employed by Travel Service, to fly Czech registered Travel Service aircraft on wet-lease to Sunwing.

How would they obtain a Canadian work permit in the first place ? Sunwing provided fake documents stating they would be employed by Sunwing ? That's how work permits are obtained. With an employment letter.

On what basis did they get the work permit ?
With an LMO stating that there was a pilot shortage in Canada or through reciprocity claiming that Sunwing had sent an equal number of Canadian pilots to Travel Service ?

Sunwing sent one aircraft to Travel Service last summer. There are 8 or 9 Travel Service aircraft in Canada right now.

It's a great scam, any way you look at it.
Hold on there buckaroo
"Sunwing provided fake documents"?
Exactly to whom did Sunwing allegedly provide these fake documents to?
Are you saying that Sunwing submitted these alleged fake documents to a government agency in Canada?
That is quite a statement to make on a public forum.
Please elaborate.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

morningwood wrote:
Gilles Hudicourt wrote:
morningwood wrote: It is much cheaper to obtain a $100 work permit even though it may not be required, than to have an aircraft temporarily grounded by an overzealous inspector during a ramp check in YUL or CUN.
Not to mention that the Travel Service Wet-Lease pilots are employed by Travel Service, to fly Czech registered Travel Service aircraft on wet-lease to Sunwing.

How would they obtain a Canadian work permit in the first place ? Sunwing provided fake documents stating they would be employed by Sunwing ? That's how work permits are obtained. With an employment letter.

On what basis did they get the work permit ?
With an LMO stating that there was a pilot shortage in Canada or through reciprocity claiming that Sunwing had sent an equal number of Canadian pilots to Travel Service ?

Sunwing sent one aircraft to Travel Service last summer. There are 8 or 9 Travel Service aircraft in Canada right now.

It's a great scam, any way you look at it.
Hold on there buckaroo
"Sunwing provided fake documents"?
Exactly to whom did Sunwing allegedly provide these fake documents to?
Are you saying that Sunwing submitted these alleged fake documents to a government agency in Canada?
That is quite a statement to make on a public forum.
Please elaborate.
You are the one who said that Sunwing obtained work permits for foreign pilots who don't work for Sunwing in any form or manner. Please elaborate.

I can get my hands on those documents and print them here if they exist you know ?

In fact I'll mail my request tomorrow. To be continued here on this forum........

A wet-lease is defined as an aircraft whose foreign operator, maintains operational control of the aircraft and it's crew. If same crews are provided with work permits by Sunwing who had, in order to secure those work permits, provide those crews with letters of employment (as required by the regulations), who actually has operational control of the aircraft? Sunwing or Travel Service ?

Did CIC provide to sunwing pilot work permits in such liberal quantities that Sunwing was able to request and obtain work permits for pilots who did not need any and who in fact could not obtain any, at the risk of muddying once again the line between a wet-lease and a dry lease.

This thing is a hornet's nest as it is. This, if true, can only make it worse.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

The Sunwing fleet is at 29 aircraft.

The core fleet of 10 aircraft.
15 short term dry-leases from travel service Czech, Travel service Hungary and Thomson airways TUIfly and Jetairfly.
4 wet-leases from Travel Service

They were successful in obtaining all the work permits they wanted, despite all our efforts.
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monkey
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by monkey »

Sounds like it will be a busy season for them, hopefully they are able to continue to hire more Canadian pilots next season.

It would be good if Transat could do something about its foreign pilot issue via CanJet, the way I understand it is Canjet has no reciprocal agreement at all.
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DeltaHotel
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by DeltaHotel »

All of us at Air Transat are hoping for a narrow body fleet. I think we might know in the near future if the Canjet contract is renewed or not. For now it's hard to tell if the negotiations are paused because of an impass or if it is a TS negotiating strategy.

The company will def ask more from its pilots to bring in 737s. Only thing is that we did twice and still with no results. Fool me once ...

Anyways ... Perhaps this belongs to another thread.

Cheers
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morningwood
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by morningwood »

monkey wrote:Sounds like it will be a busy season for them, hopefully they are able to continue to hire more Canadian pilots next season.

It would be good if Transat could do something about its foreign pilot issue via CanJet, the way I understand it is Canjet has no reciprocal agreement at all.
Yes, that's correct monkey, Transat / CanJet do not have any reciprocal agreement in place.
CanJet sent zero pilots to operate in Europe in 2012, but they have brought in 4 foreign dry lease aircraft in addition to their core fleet of 5 aircraft and they hired 32 foreign pilots under the so called LMO to operate in Canada, while 60 Transat pilots are on layoff.

Under the reciprocal wet lease program, Sunwing sent 4 Canadian wet lease aircraft with Canadian pilots to operate in Europe in 2012, and have brought in 4 foreign wet lease aircraft and crew in 2012.
15 C-Reg, short term dry lease aircraft were utilized this year as well, in addition to the full time core fleet.
In 2012, Sunwing hired and trained 15 new full time Canadian pilots and an additional 20 Canadian seasonal contract pilots at a cost of $40,000 per pilot.
The 20 seasonal contract pilots hired for a six month term were not asked to sign any training bond, and we expect to see them become full time in 2013.
You will see the number of Canadian contract pilots hired in 2012 more than double in the 2013 pilot hiring.
Approximately 30 of the full time Sunwing pilots were given Captain upgrades this year as well.
The US operations for Vacation Express is doing very well, and this will definitely promote the hiring of new full time Canadian pilots and reduce the number of foreign pilots.
The hope is to see the reciprocal 1:1 wet lease program expanded each year, and to have zero seasonal foreign pilots hired under the so called LMO.
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

Correction:

Sunwing Sent 4 wet-leases to Europe in the Summer of 2012 and brought 6 wet-leases to Canada.
2 B-767s and 4 B-737s.
In addition to the foreign crews flying those 6 wet-leases, Sunwing brought in at least another 130 foreign pilots to help them fly the 15 short term dry leases (if we count only 6 crews per aircraft instead of 7)

Canjet's fleet is at 12 aircraft, 5 core fleet and 7 short term leases. They imported 32 foreign pilots, while close to 60 Air Transat pilots are on lay off.
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Wheels
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by Wheels »

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Last edited by Wheels on Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
morningwood
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by morningwood »

You are right Gilles, I failed to include the 2 B767 wet leases.
Although, I agree with the position that when testing a new wide body trans Atlantic market, you need to "test the waters" for several seasons before committing to purchasing wide bodies.
As a side note, when Zoom when out of bussiness, Sunwing immediately hired many of the out of work Zoom pilots.

I should have clarified that under the B737 reciprocal wet lease program, Sunwing sent 4 Canadian B737 wet lease aircraft with Canadian pilots to operate in Europe in 2012, and have brought in 4 foreign B737 wet lease aircraft and pilots in 2012.

Gilles Hudicourt wrote:Canjet's fleet is at 12 aircraft, 5 core fleet and 7 short term leases. They imported 32 foreign pilots, while close to 60 Air Transat pilots are on lay off.
I didn't realize that the CanJet dry lease numbers were that high.
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Last edited by morningwood on Sun Dec 23, 2012 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
whipline
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Re: Sunwing/Canjet fleet and foreign pilots winter 2012-2013

Post by whipline »

And a large bunch of out of work Canjet pilots.
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