Encore WACON released and surprise, it sucks

[Flying Low]

It seems the Westjet management has figured out the "divide and conquer" thing! Having worked at Jazz and watched the "fun" we have with the mainline pilot group (not dissing the mainline guys...actually dissing both our groups for not finding away to stick together) you would have hoped the Westjet pilot group would have seen this coming (especially as so many have come from Jazz). Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. You have created downward pressure on your own wages...

[snowball]

Does this thread ever sound familiar. Wish someone could did up the archived thread of when WestJet mainline was starting up. All you read was how they were whoring themselves, bringing the industry down, lowering the bar etc. etc. We sure don't hear any of those comments being thrown around anymore when discussing their salaries. Maybe we just have a case of history repeating itself?

I hear ya CL but at least back then the guys had what turned out to be a very healthy set of options AND 20% ESP. So why dont the WJE guys get this as well.
Give it a while. I bet you will see a union at WJE even before WJ.



Sent from my iPhone5

[Mig29]

Well reading the initial reports here, the bar has been lowered indeed! And just when I thought that it can't get worse, it seems it can.

Some of you guys can justify the WOWCON all you want, but it just sucks. Period.

And if you guys think that WJ mainline will not look at these new pay rates, you must be in Disney World

Good luck to you all and I hope I'm wrong on this....i sincerely do.

[jjj]

The question of downward pressure on WS main line pay rates will be settled early in the new year.
The 2009 contract expires in May and the new agreement will likely be inked by the end of Feb.

Time will tell.

[dashx]

Encore: Buick Crossover (made in South Korea)

Encore: Lottery: You might get lucky

Encore: 1. A demand by an audience for an additional performance, usually expressed by applause.
2. An additional performance in response to the demand of an audience.

Just remember: Westjet is right next door to Skyregional................

[RustyDeuce]

Entitlement. Look it up people.

Merry Christmas to you all.

[Eric Janson]

Almost everyone in this industry gets in dreaming of flying big airplanes with big pay checks. However, there is no guarantee in this industry that you will actually get to this stage. WJE is the best chance there is.

Disagree - if you want the above you will need to work overseas. An increasing number of us are doing just that.

Interesting discussion - please continue.

[7thirtyseven]

Entitlement. Look it up people.

Merry Christmas to you all.

Taking pride in a skill you worked so hard to hone.... Look it up, ohh never mind.

[Mostly Harmless]

I think WJE is the place to be, if you want to work at AC.

AC is going to raid the hell out of that place... or at least I would if I were in charge at AC... just to return the favour for what has been happening at Jazz. And just like Jazz, no 2 year waiting period to go to Tier 1. At least that is my prediction for the new year.

[Kosiw]

Some things are not clear, as the information available seems as poorly written as the Skyregional contract. Does anyone know yet if there is a posted YOS payscale and when OT kicks in and how flow through will work....its all pretty ambiguous and it expects a leap of faith initially that might not pay off...

Did WJ management purposely use the Skyregional bogeyman, to justify the lower salary ? Not sure if using your competitions set up to create a bit of a crisis mode to start within WJE (us vs them mentality) ,is a good idea to keep the WAWCON down. Wondering if the management are purposely setting up such low starting wages to attact a certain demographic of pilot (younger with not much to lose vs older, experienced, and settled)...will it be a revolving door of young guns with little experience just biding time till the big show calls....what about stability, why not hire experience and keep it ?

And just where does the WJ pilot association stand on the wawcon at WJE ? Do they approve of it and have input too ?

[mbav8r]

AC is going to raid the hell out of that place... or at least I would if I were in charge at AC... just to return the favour for what has been happening at Jazz. And just like Jazz, no 2 year waiting period to go to Tier 1. At least that is my prediction for the new year

Mostly Harmless, you been living under a rock? There is no 2 year waiting to go AC from Jazz anymore. When AC divested itself of Jazz shares, the LOU with that language went the way of the dodo bird.

[Squid]

My buddy works on the hiring team at wj.
he said that the 70 guarantee is just that. The blocking is targeting 80 to 85 hrs. which puts everyone at 40 and 68-70k. The guarantee is in place for initial hires because it’s going to take a few months to build the network.

What everyone here is missing too according to him is that they are settling on a one seniority list. A date of hire at mainline. details out in the next couple weeks.
merry xmas btw everyone.

[Bede]

Flying Low,
I disagree. There are a number of important differences between WJE and Jazz. For one, there is a joint list with an almost guaranteed trip to WJ. Also pilots are represented by the same group. WJE is being sold as a decent stepping stone. This is an important point. At Jazz, most guys know that's where they're staying for life and have an interest in getting more flying, bigger planes, etc. At WJE the guys realize that they're there for a couple years and having flying at the expense of WJ will be detrimental in the long run.

Eric,
Oversea's seems to be a decent option for many if you want to leave the country. I'm glad it's worked out for many, but I still don't think it's a sure thing. I know a guy who spent a lot of money trying to do whatever these chinese company's wanted (type ratings, etc) and he still ended up getting the shaft.

I think WJE is the place to be, if you want to work at AC.
AC is going to raid the hell out of that place... or at least I would if I were in charge at AC... just to return the favour for what has been happening at Jazz. And just like Jazz, no 2 year waiting period to go to Tier 1. At least that is my prediction for the new year.

Sadly I think you're bang on and is my major worry with WJE. I made this exact point at a townhall with Gregg a few months ago. I am not sure if this attrition was costed in. WJ is the best place to work (IMO) but if I had to wait 10 years to get to WJ (once WJE matures) or AC in 1 year, I'd go to AC. Sad, but reality.

Kosiw,
No payscale yet as everyone is first year. OT is anything they call you out for or anytime blocked more than 90hrs. Flow is 1 in 4 minimum as long as you're in good standing. While this "in good standing" worries some outside the company, this is the same as captain upgrades at WJ. Before your upgrade, they check your training files and call some of your peers to ensure you have a decent attitude. Only a few guys are held back. They are told why they are being held back and get an opportunity to improve.

SR isn't really a bogeyman. The WJ pilots agreed to a wage scale of 80% of industry standard (Jazz+Porter) with the remainder being made up with profit share and ESP. Once SR entered the picture, it dragged the industry standard down slightly so the figure was revised to 90% of industry standard.

WJPA was instrumental with WJE. WJE pilots will be represented by their elected representatives within the WJPA, the same as ALPA has LEC's falling within the MEC umbrella.

[Bede]

I just responded to an email from a friend of mine about Encore pay. Here's my response:

Assuming 80hrs of flying per month. $68/hr * 80 * 12 months = $65280/yr
Profit share averages about 1 extra pay cheque every 6 months (that's about what it's been for me at WJ) $5000
ESP 10% of $65280 = $6500
TOTAL YEARLY COMPENSATION $76780
Of course there is no pension as there is at Jazz. I don't think there will be much left of the Jazz pension come 2020 when SR will get most of the AC flying. I think a Jazz pilot who got hired 20 years ago will do better than a WJE pilot now, but I think a WJE new hire will do better than a Jazz new hire.

1st year Jazz captain $78/hr *80hr/mo *12 mo/yr = $74880
Jazz does have 6% stock matching at 33% ($~1400) plus Ensemble bonuses (~$1000/yr).
TOTAL ~$77000
Porter $77749/yr http://..com/?page_id=440 <-- good on Porter guys

Pay is all similar, except for the generous pension at Jazz which probably won't be around in 30 years when I retire.

[Mig29]

No payscale yet as everyone is first year. OT is anything they call you out for or anytime blocked more than 90hrs. Flow is 1 in 4 minimum as long as you're in good standing.

Bede,

not picking apart your defense of Encore, because many things you say are true and make sense. I want to ask you personally, how do you feel about 90hrs OT flying in a Q400? You worked for Jazz as you said, not sure if you did longer legs on the RJ or short ones on the DH8, but you know that's a lot of flying if your factor that WJE routes will be short haul (1-1.5hrs). Guys will be bagged by the time they reach 90hrs... Just ask GGN guys who must fly 100hrs in order to receive OT. It's a lot different then doing 3-5hr trips on a B737 or A320.

Flow trough issue: Great idea and I support it. Wish that Jazz still had that option with AC. However, your WJ market share is pretty much at its peak. Lets be realistic when I say this. Neither AC or WJ have too much room to grow Domestically or Transborder. For both AC or WJ the only growth will be internationally. Hence, why WJ is seriously pursuing overseas flying and wide body fleet. It's not a secret, do you agree? On top of all, WJ is becoming a mature company, with a lot of young captains promoted in the last few years, who have 20-25 years of command time ahead of them.

Also, WJE is created (aside from competing vs Jazz/Porter/Sky) because your 737s are too big to fly in some airports. Perfect business sense, but from pilot's perspective it means "reduction".

My point is, this all creates potential stagnation at WJ mainline....the flow though is great, but if there is a flow. And I'm sure it will be, but not everyone going to WJE can nor should count on it.

Marry Christmas to everyone by the way

[Squid]

they said wj hit its max growth several years ago...ill put beer on it there is a new payscale in the next agreement.

[Kosiw]

they said wj hit its max growth several years ago...ill put beer on it there is a new payscale in the next agreement.

Including WJE ?

Cause as the Mig dude said, busting a hump to hit the gravy at 90 hrs is tough to do month after month, that will wear thin with WJE pilots after a while especially knowing mainline guys get gravy when they hit 82 hrs

[Squid]

the wj guys all busted a hump early in their career too....now it pays. encore has to start that way too. i guess it’s all in who they hire eh? ya this is a starter....dont forget this is an opening wages and working condition....they have to start somewhere....usually when an upstart opens it takes a couple/few years to get the first agreement in place put in by the people working there...... did you expect a full ratified agreement in place for a company that just opened the doors? obviously.
date of hire, 40 and 70 k are standard regional pays, plus 10 % esp....standard days worked (20 as a standard at the regional level). these guys now have a career path if they choose that company (wj).
20 airplanes out of the shoot....you really can thank sky regional as someone mentioned earlier. they set the expectation/bar. sounds pretty good to me along with all the benefits of a mature airline at your disposal.....

the date of hire is the golden goose.

these guys are gonna take a stick to jazz etc.

may the leanest player win.

[streets ahead]

What about per diems?

They are tough to use in a numbers crunching game because they can't necessarily be counted on, and they aren't really meant to be included in a salary debate.

But as far as good ol cash in pocket goes. It certainly should be included.

At Jazz a block holder can expect up to 1200 a month in per diems. Tax free. That is a significant amount of cash that can't really be ignored in the discussion.

What will the WJE per diems be?

[marquisman]

91% of us, not me, voted yes to this, we have opened Pandora's box, now we'll get what we deserve, next agreement talks are going to be lovely, not really, our bed is made now, hoping for the best , but very concerned.

[TheGreatCornholio]

Max 20 days of work.. doesn't the main side work 16?

Not much room for someone who wishes to commute on a 20 day schedule...

[Squid]

the great, don’t commute then.
when you have two types that have way different flying you can’t expect the “same days off”...doing 1 or 2 hr hops cant compare to say a yyz to barbados at 5 hrs can it. It’s just plain math that you can’t get a 737 credit into a q400 schedule.

Marquis man...i have a question for you....so when did wj ever screw you? I have never heard them ever saying something they never came through on or mistreated you guys in any way..... can you elaborate why the negotiations will not in your opinion go well? did they ever wrong you or mislead you to not trust this or them? how and why will it effect you? why are you concerned? just asking cuz your statement is soooo generic.

i can only see this protecting your underside marquis....it will help from having a lower cost competitor coming in from below....would you agree? isn’t longevity in your mind or would you rather have canjet part 3?

im hoping sky does this for us.....

as for perdiums, im not sure what the wj folks make. likely 3 buck/hr or so and i would imagine that it’s the same at encore. How much you take home depends on the flying you like wouldn’t it.

[flyer 1492]

Everyone has to remember that when WJ started CARS (or lack of) was different. When the "new" rules come into effect in the next year or so you will be hard pressed to be able to do OT.

[Squid]

does everyone get OT at Jazz? Porter? georgian etc? The last i heard ....rare. So why are you focused on OT?

[Mig29]

I agree, Cars are changing and realistically, how much OT can you do on 20 on/10 off??

Just commenting, that's all...