Taken by a passanger on yesterday's diverted Virgin Airlines A340, it shows a CF-18 escorting the airliner at relatively close range.
After all the accidents that have occured involving fighter escorts crashing into other aircraft in their formation... was this kind of tight formation flying at all necissary, or in the best interest of flight safety?
If there were a midair with over 300 dead, there would be hell to pay!
I think that sending the interceptors was the right idea yesterday, but the photo seems a little close for comfort.
Nordstar wrote:
After all the accidents that have occured involving fighter escorts crashing into other aircraft in their formation... was this kind of tight formation flying at all necissary, or in the best interest of flight safety?
Name one? All I can think of is the US Navy EP-3E Aries II and that Chinese jet brushed up against it about 4 years ago, and that was not a intercept but an attempt to harass them.(and it worked)
The pilot may have been look for any visual clues from the cockpit as well. They are taught proper intercept techniques before preforming them.
Rebel wrote:"After all the accidents that have occured involving fighter escorts crashing into other aircraft in their formation"
What are you talking about?
Historically speaking...
there have been many incidents where aircraft flying in formation have collided. I don't know if its statistically significant...
but the XB-70 Valkerie crashed when it colided with its chase plane.
As well, I think an investigation of the last 102 years of aviation records would reveal a great number of military mid-air's due to formation flight.
Airliners aren't escorted on a regular basis... close formation flying in such a case isn't a HUGE risk... but I pose that in this case it was unnecissary.
It appears that you missed your lessons on hijack interceptions. I would suggest that you reread those procedures to refresh your memory as that wasn’t even close.
I don't dispute that a proper, legal intercept occured... and I'm familiar with the regs, thanks.
I just figure that because the fighters and airliner were surely in radio contact long before the formal interception, the fighters bearing in tight on the airliner was a collision risk that presented no up-side. A looser interception could have been acomplished with a higher degree of safety for all concerned.
No reason to turn a faulty transponder into a potential air disaster.
Rebel wrote:"After all the accidents that have occured involving fighter escorts crashing into other aircraft in their formation"
What are you talking about?
but the XB-70 Valkerie crashed when it colided with its chase plane.
The XB-70 was on a test flight and had typical chase planes for a test flight. By your statistical reasoning it is unsafe to fly over Germany because of all the aircraft that crashed there in the 1940's.
desksgo wrote:The XB-70 was on a test flight and had typical chase planes for a test flight. By your statistical reasoning it is unsafe to fly over Germany because of all the aircraft that crashed there in the 1940's.
That's just one incident, but it highlights the hightened danger of putting several aircraft in close proximity.
If we were to search the records of the worlds airforces, we would find hundreds of incidents where formation-flying is a primary factor in mid-air collisions.
Formation flying is a risk inharent to military flying... civilians aboard an airliner are not generally subjected to such risks without due cause.
A faulty transponder is not due cause for the existance of the photo in this forum (a nice photo as it may be )
From the original photo, that formation doesn't seem all that close. It's not like the airline can suddenly jump over and hit the CF-18, and I doubt the CF-18 is doing any heavy maneuvering. I've been in closer formation than that in C-150s.
The pilot may have been look for any visual clues from the cockpit as well.
I think this is exactly why they have to fly close...I am not trying to argue with you Nordstar, just some common sense. How else are you going to examine the aircraft for any outside damage, crew injuries or (trying to see if they are even still in their seats, rather than hijackers)
I know it might scare the passangers, but those fighter guys and airline crew are quite capable and know the proper rules and safety procedures when an interception occurs.
I guess maybe you are thinking when night plays the factor...that could be problematic and espacially in bad vis?
But all kidding aside, formation flying is serious business. Even if the CF18 looks close on the picture, you can be certain that he/she has more then sufficient room to manoeuver. The guys/galls are properly trained for this stuff. If you ever find yourself is such an unfortunate situation, the safest thing you can do is fly steady. Provide the intercepting airplane with a steady platform to work with. In any formation, the leading airplane is always flying (almost) as if it was alone. the responsibility to maintain separation is on the pilots on the wing. The last thing you want to do is to try to get away from them, then they will think you have something to hide. The CF18 can fly straight and level at speed ranging from Mach 1.8 all the way down to about 80kts.
Fly straight, fly smooth, dont hit them, they wont hit you.
maybe I'm just too much of a skeptic but was that picture actually taken while on board the aircraft mentioned? It could have been a file photo with a caption like "F-18 intercepts airliner over atlantic"
Having flown formation while doing aerial seeding I can assure you that if you are not the lead aircraft the only thing you are doing is watching the aircraft you are following.
In this case the airliner could never do anything (deliberately or otherwise) rapidly enough that a CF-18 could not evade at the range shown in this picture.
As for the crash of the XB-70. That occurred (according to the reports I've seen) during an airborne photo shoot. The F-104 moved in so tight to the XB-70 that it got caught in the wing tip vortices which flipped it up and over the top of the bomber resulting in the collision with both vertical fins.
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you could always have the opposite, like KAL 182 they intercepted, and fired several bursts across the nose, then shot it down. In this post 9-11 world, if somebody squawks 7500, in this case a defective fms unit. you intercept, and escort. In non compliance, shoot the f-cker down. and yes I have been intercepted before. in my case practice outside of primrose, made a good impression on the Pax.
Nord just admit your wrong. Chances are a CF-18 driver knows a little more about this kind of thing then you do.
Besides they fly even close in the movies, so it must be right.
Beacon
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Duffman: Duffman can never die, only the actors who play him. Ooh yeah!
Hedley wrote:That's not close formation! That's "same direction, same day".
Exactly. I've been in a formation of four CF-18's on several occasions that took up less space across the entire formation than there was between these two aircraft. Hell, I've been in a CF-18 in close formation with a T-bird at night. Now that's uncomfortable! As somebody already pointed out; at that range, even if there was a hijacker flying the A-340 and he took a deliberate run at the CF-18, by the time he got there the Hornet would be on his six asking if he wanted a sparrow or sidewinder enema.
Beacon Final wrote:Nord just admit your wrong. Chances are a CF-18 driver knows a little more about this kind of thing then you do.
Besides they fly even close in the movies, so it must be right.
Beacon
lol
My main point was:
"Was this kind of (relatively) tight formation flying... in the best interest of flight safety?"
I still think that dispite the great training that our fighter pilots recieve, and the 2 pages in the CFS that teach us about interceptions, that putting many aircraft in the same airspace like that was an unnecissary risk given the circumstances (eg: XB-70 Valkerie incident)
Accidents DO happen and tight escort of an airliner just opens the door to such an accident.
But its not really a big deal, and its a remote possibility. I just hope that no such accident ever occurs, for all of our sake.
Are you for real? Get over that one accident........
That was not a tight formation. Tight is like a virgin. Ahhh ab intio
Gotta love it....
Just drop it man. Your saying I hope a mid air never happens in this type of situation is like that scene in Austin Powers where the steam roller is a mile away and dude is screaming anyway.........
DROP LIKE ITS HOT
BF
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Duffman: Hey Duff lovers! Does anyone in this bar loooove Duff?
Carl: Hey, it's Duffman!
Lenny: Newsweek said you died of liver failure.
Duffman: Duffman can never die, only the actors who play him. Ooh yeah!
)
