Encore WACON released and surprise, it sucks

[FICU]

Be careful when you are offering bottom of the scale wages because pilots being pilots will take that new WJ Q rating and run off to higher paying jobs.

[haironfire]

I can't believe what I am seeing and where the future is going! As a Q400 check pilot I have a few words to say about WJE: "Screw You!"

[Realitychex]

I'm not saying that it is beneath me. When I have completed my duties on the flight deck and have time, I will help the F/A's with grooming the cabin. Someone just asked a question and I replied, don't get your knickers in a knot.

I still groom aircraft willingly and with a smile on my face. It has absolutely nothing to do with what your T4 looks like or what you do for a living.

If you don't understand that simplest form of egalitarianism in WestJet's and Encore's corporate culture, there's absolutely no point in your applying for any position in the organization. You'll be weeded out in the earliest of the group interview sessions. Seriously.

Another sure way of being shown the door is any resistance to wearing the uniform, including the summer issue walking shorts, issued to flight crew.

[The Raven]

I'm not saying that it is beneath me. When I have completed my duties on the flight deck and have time, I will help the F/A's with grooming the cabin. Someone just asked a question and I replied, don't get your knickers in a knot.

I still groom aircraft willingly and with a smile on my face. It has absolutely nothing to do with what your T4 looks like or what you do for a living.

If you don't understand that simplest form of egalitarianism in WestJet's and Encore's corporate culture, there's absolutely no point in your applying for any position in the organization. You'll be weeded out in the earliest of the group interview sessions. Seriously.

Another sure way of being shown the door is any resistance to wearing the uniform, including the summer issue walking shorts, issued to flight crew.

That's nice that you still groom aircraft Mark. However, since you quit (or were you asked to leave?) Westjet you are nothing more than a passenger. Your opinion really doesn't count any longer.

[Realitychex]

[/quote]

That's nice that you still groom aircraft Mark. However, since you quit (or were you asked to leave?) Westjet you are nothing more than a passenger. Your opinion really doesn't count any longer.[/quote]

Well, its a good thing what became WJ paid attention to those opinions over the first decade. Same with more than a couple of other airlines that operate elsewhere on the planet.....

Had "they" chosen not to, WJ would not exist today and 9,000 folks working there today would be employed elsewhere, and very likely not in anything related to the airline business.

Scrounge around and see if you can dig up a complete copy of the ABC Air Group / WestJet business plan at WJHQ. It's the one that's about 5" thick. Other than the one that mysteriously disappeared out of my office at MacTavish place in the fall of 1995, (and there's a story there....), to my knowledge, no accessible copies exist. Too bad, because it pretty much lays out the WJ master plan for the first 12+ years.

Perhaps you should take a look at the wall opposite the WJ store at YHQ to get a check up from the neck up. It all seems pretty easy looking back on it, doesn't it? Piece of cake. Anyone could have done it, right? Easy peasy. A few turnips falling off the back of the truck could have pulled it off, eh?

There are four founding fathers of WestJet, all of whom were there from the beginning for at least 10 years. That fact will never change, regardless of whatever revisionist history is pumped out periodically.

Whether you like it or not, WJ would not exist today were it not for the collective efforts and unique skill sets, as recognized by the EOY people, of the founding four, (and I'd add GD, BL and SC to that list).

Consider the implications on WJ's famous corporate culture if the company, as you say, pays no heed whatsover to those that created it and guided it through all the "if you don't come to work scared sh*tless every morning, there's something wrong with you" years?

Culture requires a respect and recognition of history. Lose that and you don't have a culture. History 101.

In the meantime, maybe you'll be big enough to introduce yourself to me next time we're on the same flight and we can have a chat about various things.

Somehow I doubt it...

[flyer 1492]

Don't worry Reality I don't plan to apply with WJ or WJE. I just think that Encore is setup to favor the executives not the employees.

[RustyDeuce]

That's kind of a stupid thing to say, isn't it? With profit share, ESP, and stock options (for some) the employees will certainly reap any rewards of Encore. The success of Encore will certainly help fund the launch of widebody aircraft down the road. It was said earlier in this thread: Encore -> WestJet -> Widebody. What a horrible career that would be.

[countryhick]

Ok, disregard corporate culture, flowthrough, startup wages (it will get better...), ESP, profit share.

It has been mentioned several time that WJ wants to attract some experienced Q4 pilots for the initial startup. As a 13 year Jazz Pilot, and an experienced Q4 Captain, I was interested to see what the entire package would be when WJE was first announced. I am quite happy where I am, merely a keep the options open kind of interest.

At this stage of my career, flowthrough means nothing to me, it is merely a carrot. ESP and profit share are gravy, not to be considered in the salary equation. I simply can not justify the 40K pay cut based on the promises and predictions that are floating around. Maybe I am not as much a visionary as some. At the end of the day it is about supporting my family and maintaining the lifestyle I currently enjoy.

I can not do that with what is currently on the table from WJE.

[Obbie]

If you are a 13 year Jazz pilot then that 40k a year pay
cut is on it's way to you sooner or later, whether you like it or not.

It's all going to be so very bad so very soon......

[Mig29]

If you are a 13 year Jazz pilot then that 40k a year pay
cut is on it's way to you sooner or later, whether you like it or not.

It's all going to be so very bad so very soon......

It's funny (not really) how that comment quickly comes out as almost a threat or hard reality fact towards someone who is experienced and considers his pay respectable enough not to move to another company that will pay him half of what Encore or Sky will pay.

Us pilots are quick to mock one another and put each other down, just because someone is doing well, and is happy where he is, instead of mocking those that will apply to these new outfits and ultimately RUIN it for everyone else in the industry!! Instead of holding back (together) and making these companies realize that there is not enough interested experienced guys who will go there and effectively make them raise the compensation package! Nooooo instead, we are jealous and almost can't wait till the other guy suffers so that we can justify our lousy job offer and feel happy that we are now on the same level.....Ultimately, when Jazz and even Porter fall in line (which I hope they won't) things will look all rosy and optimistic for everyone......except the pilots. How low can we go ??


Btw. to all you supporters of this new wave of cheap labor I say: F*** economics 101 and f*** supply and demand bs!!!

IT IS US AND ONLY US, THAT CONTRIBUTE TO EROSION OF OUR CAREERS!

End of rant. Feels better I admit!

All the best for the new year to all of you!! Hope we all make the right choice!!

[Kosiw]

Guys relax, here is how an Encore interview should go

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msHf2lGCZGk

[highlander]

I'll play the role of Devil's Advocate here (sort of):

1) What is the real issue here- Encore has released wage info (for the first year, I might add- who knows what the pay scale is beyond that) and no one likes it? Guess what? This unfortunately is aviation and not unique to Encore. Whether we like it or not, to be in aviation has always been-- to move ahead, you have to move back.

I left instructing years ago where I was making a whopping 34,000 a year- I took an F/O spot on a king air for 26,000 a year. I moved up the ladder to Ops Mgr- making 70,000 a year only to get laid off (company went bankrupt) and went to another company as a Captain making 45,000 a year. Then got promoted- went to Captain on a 1900 making 72,000 a year only to get on at WJ making 40,000 a year. But someone once told me "Short term pain for the long term gain". Do I agree with it- no- but this is the industry we are in. Yes, WJ could have been a leader in the industry and provide higher wages- but again- what is the big picture- maybe 1st year is lower (cover training expenses) but 2nd/3rd year pay will be more attractive. Until we have the entire package- it's hard to understand.

2) I'm not going to Encore- Simple- I'd be taking a pay cut, working more days. I have a family with bills to pay- I already talked it over with the family and right now we just can't afford it. - This opportunity may be right for someone- but not right for me at this time. If the money wasn't the issue I would love to be part of this. Maybe it won't have the exact same results that WJ first had in 1996- but to be part of something new like this would be exciting.

3) ESP 10%- yes it's lower than 20%- but remember it's still pretty attractive- after all- if you decide to contribute the full 10%- the company matches it dollar for dollar. Many companies allow you to contribute to shares within the company but they rarely will MATCH it. So regardless of the 20 or 10%- it's is still being matched dollar for dollar.


Feel free to attack me now

[flyer 1492]

One question that I think has not been asked is.

Pilot #1 is hired on at Encore the same day pilot #2,3,4 are hired. If pilot #1 stays at Encore for (lets say 4 years) and his/her number is called, what pay scale do they end up at? Do they start at the bottom of the F/O wage scale or transition to year 4.

[whoresfly]

Please tell me for the love of god that the pilots wont be grooming all these Q400s ontop of such a piss poor salary.

Helping to unplug toilets, cleaning up vomit all in a days work for the modern pilot at airlines that actually make money and provide secure jobs. Its a good idea to carry a spare shirt in the flight bag. Guests do not appreciate skid marks on your sleeves. Remember you will now be an owner. What do you do at your home? Janitors and maids are expensive and effect the bottom line at work or at home. Time to get with the new reality.

[countryhick]

Highlander, thank you for a honest point of view from a current WJ pilot.

[prop2jet]

I can't say I am at all surprised by what is being offered up by way of compensation at WJE. What surprises me is that there are some at WJ who think that this is fair compensation, lowering the bar just a little more. Might I suggest to those Westjetters that feel that this is such a great thing, they transfer over to WJE for a reality check.

I do not know about the rest of you, but when it comes to managing a household, you plan with what you know is coming in every 2 weeks - not by what you end up with at the end of the year or think you will get. After the bills are paid, where does one find the excess 10% to contribute to a share plan?

[RustyDeuce]

Financial planning.

How does a CSA live making $15/hr contributing 20% towards ESP? Some can, some can't. Some are smart with the money and some aren't.

[jjj]

My buddy who works for one of the sweetest corporate gigs in Western Canada just gave me a call after he finished work.

Park brake set, engines cut-off, hauled bags for customers, finished log book then he spent an hour detailing his plane. Matter of pride, principle, SOP, culture whatever - it's just honest work. It's ok for this guy but because I work at WestJet and cross a few seat belts, I am somehow contributing to the erosion of the industry.

Too many entitled babies around here that are afraid to get their little white shirts wrinkled.

Get to work kids - you're bugging me.

JJJ

(What most of you guys gross is less than what I paid in income tax this year.)

[FICU]

(What most of you guys gross is less than what I paid in income tax this year.)

Will you be continuing this gloating and proudly telling the future WJE new hires that you pay more in taxes in 1 year than they will gross in 1.5 years of working way harder than you do?

I also have no problem crossing belts on turns but it has nothing to do with profit and everything to do with helping our hard working flight attendants who provide full service including hot meals to 136 pax.

[jjj]

I knew that was going to bug a few.

I logged on to tone down the comment but now it lives in perpetuity because of FICU's quote.

What you call gloating is what I call a response to those who accuse WS of eroding aviation.

As far as the Encore guys go, they have a hell of a lot to look forward to. The guys hired in their early twenties will be making more money than I was at the same age. Those guys/gals will be on mainline in their early thirties. By the time they are in their 40's they will be making more than I am now and will be looking at retirement 50. I will not gloat but I will quietly cover the beer tab when were all hanging around as peers.

Not bad unless it all tanks. Never know in this business.

Later.

[SayAgain]

Here is what I think is an interesting situation to ponder.

Let's say a pilot has 5000-6000 hours with some pic time on a dash 8 or similar aircraft.
What do you think would be the better career move?

On the one hand direct entry captain at WJE on the other Air canada?

It seems to me depending on how the flow through is established that starting out at WJE a pilot might end up ahead of the Air Canada pilot financially.

[60+]

Gents. What do you expect from Airlines when they see ex Air Canada guys working for peanuts and sometimes working for free (Ethiopian airlines B777). See PPrun.

Keep up the criticism and your disgust. CBC is coming up with a documentary on Colgan Air accident.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/0 ... ify_t.html

Relating it to Canadian regional low pilot wages and its future consequences.
It will be an eye opening for the public and certainly a marketing damage to the beloved Airline.
Needles to say they will try blocking the documentary program; that is where we should kick in.

[AirMail]

I can't say I am at all surprised by what is being offered up by way of compensation at WJE. What surprises me is that there are some at WJ who think that this is fair compensation, lowering the bar just a little more. Might I suggest to those Westjetters that feel that this is such a great thing, they transfer over to WJE for a reality check.

Since there does seem to be some WJ pilots who think the WJE pay is great, would the mainline guys be willing to take a pay cut? After all it was in an article not to long ago about how it's getting harder to compete with AC with the higher wages being paid to senior pilots. It's a different story when it doesn't affect you personally.

[Squid]

Okboys and girls, here is the latest from my hiring bud @ wj.

To date, over 100 apps at encore since last Monday. Dp picked 19 for interviews so far for interviews. Jazz, porter, cdn north dash, sky reg, cma dornier types only so far.. My bro unfortunately not.
Later. 15 to 25 direct capt spots for April start...

[onetreehill]

YA BABY YA!!!