Encore WACON released and surprise, it sucks

[Stu Pidasso]

You guys seem to forget, there are no secrets in Aviation.

AC has enough ex-WJ'ers that tell the truth about the "culture," I'm glad it works for some of you. My friends at WJ admit, they play the game, hold their nose, then go home and stare at their T4.

Unfortunately, you will live to regret what you've done at Encore. Gloating about your T4's will be over, then what? Iron some patches on your slacks, drop to your knees and start grooming.

Pilots are notorious for belittling our Profession, now we brag about earning less than a F/A or Baggie.

[Realitychex]

You guys seem to forget, there are no secrets in Aviation.

AC has enough ex-WJ'ers that tell the truth about the "culture," I'm glad it works for some of you. My friends at WJ admit, they play the game, hold their nose, then go home and stare at their T4.

Unfortunately, you will live to regret what you've done at Encore. Gloating about your T4's will be over, then what? Iron some patches on your slacks, drop to your knees and start grooming.

Pilots are notorious for belittling our Profession, now we brag about earning less than a F/A or Baggie.

Does it surprise you that people who leave a situation are the usually the first ones to complain about their previous situation and crow about how great their new situation is to any and all who'll listen?

You can define "situation" as anything. A job. A car. A neighborhood. Your favorite fast food joint. Adult beverages. You name it.

"I used to drink Starbucks, but Timmy's is way better" is normal.

Frankly, I'd find it a little odd if someone made the decision to leave a situation they really liked and complain about their new situation.

"I love Starbucks but I switched to Timmy's and I really hate it..." would not exactly be typical.

It's human nature to justify your existing situation by dumping on your previous one.

I was a long term, multiple BMW owner but after a while, I recognized how poorly they treat their long standing customers. I switched to Audi and I couldn't be happier. I love to dump on BMW now. It's no different.

[Stu Pidasso]

The whole, "we're all equal, go team go," is a facade and (some) of the Pilots buy into it. From my contacts - not so much - the only salvation has been the T4.

Pull that rug out and we'll see what happens. Now that the Encore Dash 8 Captain is making what a WJ biscuit shooter makes, pushing a cart and pouring coffee.

[flyer 1492]

Good post Airmail,

I don't see anyone from WJ running over to operate the Q400. A friend of mine started at WJ in the fall, during G/S they had the upper management show up and they offered the class direct entry captain positions at Encore. Guess how many raised their hands to apply...zero.

For all the WJ employees on AvCanada, how about answering my previous question...

[Legacy]

Good post Airmail,

I don't see anyone from WJ running over to operate the Q400. A friend of mine started at WJ in the fall, during G/S they had the upper management show up and they offered the class direct entry captain positions at Encore. Guess how many raised their hands to apply...zero.

For all the WJ employees on AvCanada, how about answering my previous question...

Umm no they didnt. Lets say someone in that class said yes. So now what? WJ says ok go home and wait for WJE groundschool in 6 months AND we will pay you in the meantime. OR they say Go back to your old employer and we will call you in the spring. I highly doubt it

[RustyDeuce]

One question that I think has not been asked is.

Pilot #1 is hired on at Encore the same day pilot #2,3,4 are hired. If pilot #1 stays at Encore for (lets say 4 years) and his/her number is called, what pay scale do they end up at? Do they start at the bottom of the F/O wage scale or transition to year 4.

If this is the question you're referring to I don't have an answer. For frontline Westjetters that transfer from frontline position to frontline position (i.e. CSA, FA, SSA, Air Supply, TAC) they stay at the same yearly step. I would imagine pilots would be the same.

[Legacy]

One question that I think has not been asked is.

Pilot #1 is hired on at Encore the same day pilot #2,3,4 are hired. If pilot #1 stays at Encore for (lets say 4 years) and his/her number is called, what pay scale do they end up at? Do they start at the bottom of the F/O wage scale or transition to year 4.

If this is the question you're referring to I don't have an answer. For frontline Westjetters that transfer from frontline position to frontline position (i.e. CSA, FA, SSA, Air Supply, TAC) they stay at the same yearly step. I would imagine pilots would be the same.

From what I heard from a reliable source was that they are working on a very fair flow through to WJ. I cant recall exactly how it went but they were trying to get it so you receive credit for the time you put in at WJE. I think that is the only fair way to go. Afterall WJE pilots are contributing to the same bottom end as WJ hence receiving the profit share from the same tub.

[OracleOctopus]

Hello avcanada, long time lurcher first time poster.

I couldn't help but chime in on this discussion and give my opinion. I work for a large 704/705 company that supplies a fair amount of quality individuals for the majors during times of hiring. For the record, I would fly WJ as a passenger over AC any day. I also have AC in my blood through family ties. I've watched quietly from my seat in twin turbo prop as the industry has slid downhill. I understand free market economics, fuel prices, absent minded pilots and the reasons for lower wages.

I must say I am very disappointed by the Encore terms. As someone who finally meets the requirements to apply at AC/WJ, I found it disappointing to have to go through the Q400 to fly for what I consider the top airline in Canada. Alas, I swallowed my pride and had accepted that I would need to go through Encore to achieve my dream of working on the 737. One day I logged onto avcanada to read the pay for these new positions.

You can't expect a human being to live on that F/O wage in any major centre to do the job as it is described on here. The captain wage is insulting enough considering the level of experience most people will have prior to filling that seat. Most of the qualified applicants have 3000+hrs, a degree/diploma, and experience you can't train for in a sim.

One really needs to consider the calibre of applicants seriously applying for these jobs. The word around my company is that of disgust and "not a chance in hell I'm going there for that". I understand WJ's mainline drivers are running up costs and closing the margin for profit, but gouging the low new comers based on current airline reputation is frankly insulting.

So what kind of people are seriously applying there?
-Captains at dead beat companies who can barely afford KD
-F/O lifers (for whatever reason) at other companies who make garbage money
-Rich wives club
-Parents basement club
-Desperate to get back to YYC
-People who think short term pain will lead to long term gain. (the pain was your 703 gig you did when you were 21!)

Also makes you think how many of these individuals will be able to jump through the picky selection process or will the bar be lowered for this too?

Sincerely

A once hopeful future Westjetter

[whoresfly]

One question that I think has not been asked is.

Pilot #1 is hired on at Encore the same day pilot #2,3,4 are hired. If pilot #1 stays at Encore for (lets say 4 years) and his/her number is called, what pay scale do they end up at? Do they start at the bottom of the F/O wage scale or transition to year 4.

If this is the question you're referring to I don't have an answer. For frontline Westjetters that transfer from frontline position to frontline position (i.e. CSA, FA, SSA, Air Supply, TAC) they stay at the same yearly step. I would imagine pilots would be the same.

From what I heard from a reliable source was that they are working on a very fair flow through to WJ. I cant recall exactly how it went but they were trying to get it so you receive credit for the time you put in at WJE. I think that is the only fair way to go. Afterall WJE pilots are contributing to the same bottom end as WJ hence receiving the profit share from the same tub.

Just as important. How about a flow down to Encore if things go into the crapper. In other words has anyone heard of any provisions which will allow a WJA pilot to bump down to Encore if the economy goes back into the dumper.

Is it possible that the unthinkable might happen and that Encore might start to swallow up WJA routes due to its cheaper operating costs?

[RustyDeuce]

There's no doubt in my mind that Encore will replace current 737 routes.

[flyer 1492]

I would hope that WJ would credit the pilots coming from WJE with their years of service, considering that they are going to be behind in wages earned.

[Squid]

Years of service/date of hire and pay will carry according to my guy. Wjpa is endorsing this apparently. Details are going to be finalized in January. Flow up and flow down. According to him, ya some short routes will go from wj but the tails will be pointed to more productive flying like Dallas and Houston and more Caribbean.

[BTyyj]

There's no doubt in my mind that Encore will replace current 737 routes.

+1 to what squid said. WJ still has a number of 737s on order, which would suggest continued growth with that fleet in the form of new routes. I'm sure the WJ pilots inquired thoroughly into this issue before giving WJE the go-ahead.

[crooked timber]

Just as important. How about a flow down to Encore if things go into the crapper. In other words has anyone heard of any provisions which will allow a WJA pilot to bump down to Encore if the economy goes back into the dumper.

Is it possible that the unthinkable might happen and that Encore might start to swallow up WJA routes due to its cheaper operating costs?

quite possible... but no points for originality as that trail was already blazed (viz. the jets4jobs/flowback deal[s] south of the border)

[YYZSaabGuy]

There's no doubt in my mind that Encore will replace current 737 routes.

+1 to what squid said. WJ still has a number of 737s on order, which would suggest continued growth with that fleet in the form of new routes. I'm sure the WJ pilots inquired thoroughly into this issue before giving WJE the go-ahead.

WJA management has already confirmed publicly that Encore will operate the Q400s on some routes currently served by 737s, in order to improve yields on those routes and, as Squid noted, to free up 737 capacity for longer domestic, transborder and international routes. And yes, as Frosty points out, there are a number of 737s on order but there are also a bunch coming up on the option years in their leases. Those aircraft are candidates for return if they can't be deployed profitably. WestJet management has so far been pretty disciplined about adding capacity only in the context of an overriding 12% ROIC requirement. I would expect this will continue.

[Realitychex]

There's no doubt in my mind that Encore will replace current 737 routes.

.....thus freeing up half a dozen or more 737's to fly far more efficient and profitable 1,000 mile+ sectors.

WestJet forced a sea change on the industry from 1996 to 2003.

At launch in 1996, there was AC, CP, Royal, Transat and Canada 3000. Within 7 years, the industry was turned upside down. Canadian was all but bankrupted. AC went through numerous painful cost cutting initiatives and ultimately CCAA, Royal disappeared, Canjet disappeared, Canada 3000 disappeared. Vistajet disappeared. There are probably others I've forgotten about.

I expect Encore will do precisely the same over it's first 5 years in the game. Change forces change and there are very few airlines, if any, in North America with the war chest per what ever metric you care to choose that compare to the pile of cash WestJet is currently sitting on.

It is going to be very interesting to watch TurboJet, err,..... Encore unfold.

[Flying Nutcracker]

So... Just so I know what side I am supposed to be angry with... Are we mad at the company for offering what they are, or... Are we mad at the pilots (apparently more than 100) who are looking for work?

[tiguan]

So... Just so I know what side I am supposed to be angry with... Are we mad at the company for offering what they are, or... Are we mad at the pilots (apparently more than 100) who are looking for work?

Neither. You are supposed to be angry with transport canada for making it so easy to get a commercial license in canada.

[coldandwet]

I'M still in shock that a 737 pilot would make 300k a year.............comical!!

[7thirtyseven]

Hello avcanada, long time lurcher first time poster.

I couldn't help but chime in on this discussion and give my opinion. I work for a large 704/705 company that supplies a fair amount of quality individuals for the majors during times of hiring. For the record, I would fly WJ as a passenger over AC any day. I also have AC in my blood through family ties. I've watched quietly from my seat in twin turbo prop as the industry has slid downhill. I understand free market economics, fuel prices, absent minded pilots and the reasons for lower wages.

I must say I am very disappointed by the Encore terms. As someone who finally meets the requirements to apply at AC/WJ, I found it disappointing to have to go through the Q400 to fly for what I consider the top airline in Canada. Alas, I swallowed my pride and had accepted that I would need to go through Encore to achieve my dream of working on the 737. One day I logged onto avcanada to read the pay for these new positions.

You can't expect a human being to live on that F/O wage in any major centre to do the job as it is described on here. The captain wage is insulting enough considering the level of experience most people will have prior to filling that seat. Most of the qualified applicants have 3000+hrs, a degree/diploma, and experience you can't train for in a sim.

One really needs to consider the calibre of applicants seriously applying for these jobs. The word around my company is that of disgust and "not a chance in hell I'm going there for that". I understand WJ's mainline drivers are running up costs and closing the margin for profit, but gouging the low new comers based on current airline reputation is frankly insulting.

So what kind of people are seriously applying there?
-Captains at dead beat companies who can barely afford KD
-F/O lifers (for whatever reason) at other companies who make garbage money
-Rich wives club
-Parents basement club
-Desperate to get back to YYC
-People who think short term pain will lead to long term gain. (the pain was your 703 gig you did when you were 21!)

Also makes you think how many of these individuals will be able to jump through the picky selection process or will the bar be lowered for this too?

Sincerely

A once hopeful future Westjetter

Thank you for a great post. It deserves an answer I am unqualified to give. However a couple things come to mind.
First there has not been enough information out for anyone interested to make a sound judgement on a career move. 2nd the numbers bandied around are hardly a "regression". (I have started 4 "new" jobs on dash-8s over the course of my career and am embarassed to say none of them were close to what encore is offering, maybe im just getting old).
3rd. There are many many upsides that have not been either discussed in these forums nor even published, anyone wanting to fly for encore will have to come to terms with the potential sacrifices vs gain as they see fit. 4th. As it stands I cannot give it an endorsement to my friends that show interest I believe there are shortcomings that would make it very difficult to come to a conclusion with.
Finally whatever the final outcome interms of the final package when it is delivered in Jan, i hope that you give it a fair read and come to your own conclusions for you and yours.
Again I really liked your post.

[ODA]

I'm interested in the fact that everyone keeps bringing up the point that when Westjet started they paid well below industry standard and now have without out a doubt the highest T4's for their aircraft type. When people bring this up are they implying that with Encore's success the pay will come up and eventually an Encore pilot will have industry leading pay or do they just have the ability to make it to Westjet mainline and earn the better wages??

It's also been brought up that the pilots who first started at Westjet all live in mansions now since they did so well with their stock. Is it really realistic to think that someone starting at Westjet now would ever see that sort of increase in their stocks over such a short time frame?? Not saying the stock will go down I expect Westjet to continue to do well, but could it really sky rocket the way it did??

I'm by no means an expert on the subject, just curious to some of the details.

[flyer 1492]

So who's to blame...
1. ACPA/WJPA for allowing this to happen. You both had the power to say no.
2. AC/WJ Management-Thinking that by starting another airline, you can undercut the other guy (which leads to a downward spiral.
3. The 91% of employees that voted in favour of starting the new airline. Don't think for one minute that management is looking out for your best interests.
4. Pilots that will sell their souls to try and get ahead of each other.
5. The flying public that want/demand lower fares which inturn puts added pressure on the companies to cut costs.
6. The government for not reducing the tax the airline companies have to pay, and for not allowing freedom to bargain in good faith (hard to bargain with a gun at your head).
Can anyone think of others that might be to blame?

[7thirtyseven]

So who's to blame...
1. ACPA/WJPA for allowing this to happen. You both had the power to say no.
2. AC/WJ Management-Thinking that by starting another airline, you can undercut the other guy (which leads to a downward spiral.
3. The 91% of employees that voted in favour of starting the new airline. Don't think for one minute that management is looking out for your best nterests.
4. Pilots that will sell their souls to try and get ahead of each other.
5. The flying public that want/demand lower fares which inturn puts added pressure on the companies to cut costs.
6. The government for not reducing the tax the airline companies have to pay, and for not allowing freedom to bargain in good faith (hard to bargain with a gun at your head).
Can anyone think of others that might be to blame?

Buffalo Joe?


Actually both the "westjet capitalists" and the "race to the bottom" gang have it wrong. It comes down to a simple driver of our western economies, supply and demand. Given the steady supply of well qualified pilots in Canada and a basicly static demand... You know the rest.
Dont believe me? Get a job in the oil patch at timmies, its hard to find someone willing to pour coffee... Thus the going rate is close to triple what it might be in main street ont.
We can point our fingers all we want but the reality is there are too many of us in Canada. Drop the number of Atpl pilots in canada by 10% and you'd see a huge jump in salarys. Drop it by 30% and youd see (Im guessing) a tripleing of the average wage.
Most pilots wont sell their souls... They are just chasing a dream beside too many other young guys/gals chasing their own dream. Like all things the pendulum will eventually swing the other way.

[stickontheice]

You get what you pay for.

[Valhalla]

Some questions for the Westjetters -

Why is Encore being sold to prospective pilots as a startup? Isn't the Westjet brand well established by now? Why should pilots starting at Encore accept this as a justification for low starting wages? Why not call it what it is, a new aircraft type in the fleet to compliment the fact that the 737 doesn't do well in high frequency markets like "the triangle", or smaller communities?

The only reason it is run as a new and seperate company, wholly owned by Westjet, is to be able to get away with a lower cost structure. Will the CSRs, ground handlers and office staff at Encore also get 80% of industry standard wages? Will it only be Q400 pilots that have to bare the burden of keeping Encore cost effective?

I'm sure it's better for the profit sharing cheque and the share price to do it this way, but how in the world are the Westjetters going to prevent raising 2nd class citizens within the pilot group as a result?