Encore WACON released and surprise, it sucks

[Morav]

It looks like Encore took down their Job Ad from the Westjet site.

[vrrotate]

It's back up again with today's date.

[Donald]

Maybe this foreshadows WJ's next "startup" airline, the low-cost widebody overseas operation? I wonder how today's mainline WJ'etters would feel about that?

[snowball]

Some questions for the Westjetters -

Why is Encore being sold to prospective pilots as a startup? Isn't the Westjet brand well established by now? Why should pilots starting at Encore accept this as a justification for low starting wages? Why not call it what it is, a new aircraft type in the fleet to compliment the fact that the 737 doesn't do well in high frequency markets like "the triangle", or smaller communities?

The only reason it is run as a new and seperate company, wholly owned by Westjet, is to be able to get away with a lower cost structure. Will the CSRs, ground handlers and office staff at Encore also get 80% of industry standard wages? Will it only be Q400 pilots that have to bare the burden of keeping Encore cost effective?

I'm sure it's better for the profit sharing cheque and the share price to do it this way, but how in the world are the Westjetters going to prevent raising 2nd class citizens within the pilot group as a result?

You got it spot on. This is not really a new thing for WJ. They know exactly what the market is for this type of flying. They have been doing it for 16 years. But you guys are doing this crappy wage to yourselves. You are accepting the position. If I were in some of your guys shoes I would be livid at these guys that are accepting this. In charge of a brand new 20+ million dollar aircraft for the salary my garbage man gets. If that's what you want for your future as a pilot then have at er. Don't give me any of this crap what COULD be for this Encore. We aren't investors. Leave the what could be to investors. If you feel that this airline is going to be a hit then invest your money in WJ but don't ruin it for the rest of the pilots and our kids that want to be pilots. Just refuse until they offer a decent salary. Is 70k a year going to break them? If so, they shouldn't even be starting this airline up. Just like Dave said, you want to get your point across then don't apply. Man pilots are retarded.

[Morav]

You know what I think is retarded. How a 12 year 767 FO can pull in over 200k a year, and at the same time a first year AC FO slotted into Rouge is making approximately 40k flying the SAME equipment and a tougher sched! Don't give me that experience crap. The only reason why you have 12 years experience on a 767 is because AC hired you to begin with! You most likely never even flew a 767 before showing up. At the end of the day you fly from point A to point B just like every other pilot.

This is what unions have done. They have skewed the appropriate wage for a "X" driver, protected the lazy pilots at the top, and trashed the new guys.

NOW people are mad, because young pilots with over 30 years left in their career are trying to get a great start with a great airline that has great potential for growth.

I absolutely agree with CAT, when he says, maybe some pilots are overpaid....

If I can do the same job at year one as someone at year 12, I should be paid as such. Bring down these ridiculous top end salaries, and level out the pay for equipment. Does a 12 year plumber charge $400.00 an hour because he's been doing it longer? No, he charges industry standard period.

[Morav]

Some questions for the Westjetters -

Why is Encore being sold to prospective pilots as a startup? Isn't the Westjet brand well established by now? Why should pilots starting at Encore accept this as a justification for low starting wages? Why not call it what it is, a new aircraft type in the fleet to compliment the fact that the 737 doesn't do well in high frequency markets like "the triangle", or smaller communities?

The only reason it is run as a new and seperate company, wholly owned by Westjet, is to be able to get away with a lower cost structure. Will the CSRs, ground handlers and office staff at Encore also get 80% of industry standard wages? Will it only be Q400 pilots that have to bare the burden of keeping Encore cost effective?

I'm sure it's better for the profit sharing cheque and the share price to do it this way, but how in the world are the Westjetters going to prevent raising 2nd class citizens within the pilot group as a result?

You got it spot on. This is not really a new thing for WJ. They know exactly what the market is for this type of flying. They have been doing it for 16 years. But you guys are doing this crappy wage to yourselves. You are accepting the position. If I were in some of your guys shoes I would be livid at these guys that are accepting this. In charge of a brand new 20+ million dollar aircraft for the salary my garbage man gets. If that's what you want for your future as a pilot then have at er. Don't give me any of this crap what COULD be for this Encore. We aren't investors. Leave the what could be to investors. If you feel that this airline is going to be a hit then invest your money in WJ but don't ruin it for the rest of the pilots and our kids that want to be pilots. Just refuse until they offer a decent salary. Is 70k a year going to break them? If so, they shouldn't even be starting this airline up. Just like Dave said, you want to get your point across then don't apply. Man pilots are retarded.

You know what I think is retarded. How a 12 year 767 FO can pull in over 200k a year, and at the same time a first year AC FO slotted into Rouge is making approximately 40k flying the SAME equipment and a tougher sched! Don't give me that experience crap. The only reason why you have 12 years experience on a 767 is because AC hired you to begin with! You most likely never even flew a 767 before showing up. At the end of the day you fly from point A to point B just like every other pilot.

This is what unions have done. They have skewed the appropriate wage for a "X" driver, protected the lazy pilots at the top, and trashed the new guys.

NOW people are mad, because young pilots with over 30 years left in their career are trying to get a great start with a great airline that has great potential for growth.

I absolutely agree with CAT, when he says, maybe some pilots are overpaid....

If I can do the same job at year one as someone at year 12, I should be paid as such. Bring down these ridiculous top end salaries, and level out the pay for equipment. Does a 12 year plumber charge $400.00 an hour because he's been doing it longer? No, he charges industry standard period.


Happy New Year everybody!

[jjj]

Donald,

Part of the MOA includes a provision that any wide bodies go on the mainline OC.

Donald, what do you and the other kids around here think we WS pilots have been debating at length on our forum and with our WJPA? None of you on here have speculated to a single original idea that hasn't been covered already in our own debates.

Thanks for comin' out kid, now get back to your cornflakes.

JJJ

[Realitychex]

Some questions for the Westjetters -

Why is Encore being sold to prospective pilots as a startup? Isn't the Westjet brand well established by now? Why should pilots starting at Encore accept this as a justification for low starting wages? Why not call it what it is, a new aircraft type in the fleet to compliment the fact that the 737 doesn't do well in high frequency markets like "the triangle", or smaller communities?

The only reason it is run as a new and seperate company, wholly owned by Westjet, is to be able to get away with a lower cost structure. Will the CSRs, ground handlers and office staff at Encore also get 80% of industry standard wages? Will it only be Q400 pilots that have to bare the burden of keeping Encore cost effective?

I'm sure it's better for the profit sharing cheque and the share price to do it this way, but how in the world are the Westjetters going to prevent raising 2nd class citizens within the pilot group as a result?

Without a lower cost structure, leading to sustainable, meaningful lower fares and renewed short haul market stimulation, what would be the point of the exercise?

Not launching with the lowest costs in the business would be like starting a banana plantation and trying to make a go of it with the 2nd or 3rd lowest costs to grow bananas and get them on the shelf in Safeway. How on earth would you be successful? For 99% of buyers, a banana is a banana is a banana. It's a commodity.

We all saw what happened when 2 airlines in Canada battled it out with nearly identical costs flying wingtip to wingtip for well over a decade. One was within a few days of declaring bankruptcy, the other ultimately went into bankruptcy protection a few years later. That's not a very compelling business case.

Make no mistake about it. Encore is a startup and the benchmark, whether you like it or not, is Sky Regional.

In the early days of WestJet, it was expected that every airframe would generate something around $21.5m a year in revenues. Adjusted for inflation, I suspect it's highly unlikely a Q400 will generate this sort of revenue per airframe per year. How could it be expected to have the same sort of salaries without the same sort of potential revenue stream?

WJ's entry into the market in early 1996 turned commercial aviation economics upside down and caused a sea change in the industry. Encore is likely going to do the same.

One of the things I suspect will change is the often excessive cross subsidization of regionals by mainline operations which has been going on across the industry for years.

I suspect Encore will be set up as a stand alone silo that will not materially benefit from excessive cross subsidization of costs and revenues. Encore will have to sink or swim on its own merits. Launching with anything but the lowest possible costs, as was the case with WJA in 1996, is the only way to ensure success and longevity.

For the record, I am of the opinion that if it is set up correctly in all respects, Encore will be tremendously successful, and by successful, I mean both profitable on a standalone basis and contributing to larger stand alone margins at WestJet mainline. I don't consider managing to stay in business and losing fist fulls of shareholders equity every year, regardless of how good the product is, to be "successful".

[snowball]

That's why I wish there was only ONE union, if any, in Canada that dictated the terms. No ALPA, NO ACPA, just one union. and every pilot had to belong to it. Our problems would be resolved. Well a lot more than they are now.

[jjj]

RealityChex,

Nicely put.

Best post on this thread.

JJJ

[DTO-2]

Greetings Everyone…

The old race to the bottom eh. When I started flying back in the early 90s I was content on flying a DHC-8 or a BAE 146 around the Maritimes as a career job. Money wasn’t bad, great schedule and benefits. I think my roommate in 1993 was making around 60K+ a year. That was 20 years ago as a third year Capt on the DHC-8 at Nova. The town house in Bedford we shared was worth 85 k life was good. I remember when I was doing my Captain line training on the B737 years back, the line-indoc pilot told me that he remembered back to 1978 when his T4 was $87k as a line pilot on the 737. Here I am getting checked out for a line Captain on the 737 for 65k per year 27 years later? We as professional pilots cannot blame our Airlines can we? What about deregulation? How did that affect us? The government got out of the Airport business and said the traveler will pay not the tax payer. Fuel prices are sky high and the taxes landing fees in this country are among the highest. I made a trip in 1989 from Vancouver to Halifax return for 928.00 dollars. What is it today? Remember all the private Airlines i.e. Wardair, EPA, Canada 3000 are all gone. It’s all about IPO and shareholders. I still love my job, and I love working for my current Airline. It’s the best place to be in my mind and I really enjoy coming to work every day. I am sure it’s the same for the rest of you and your airline. We need to stop bitching on this forum and work together as one united Pilot group. Let’s make this a fun and vibrant Career.Stop the negativity and work together to bring new ideas to the table and keep our profession alive and well.The College of Professional Pilots of Canada would be a good start…IMHO


I wish you a Happy New Years and best wishes for 2013

[snowball]

AMEN DTO. The problem is there are slime ball pilots that will take advanage of your common sense and step in line before you so they can sleez their way to the left seat for 20 bucks an hour. Maybe what we need is to have a "meeting" with these guys so they an see the brighter side of things.

[CAL]

morav .............really?
I get your point but why take away from one of the few pilots in the world that does well in this industry?
problem with the entire thing....guys that do well are shunned upon instead of the rest of us wanting that....

[Cat Driver]

Maybe what we need is to have a "meeting" with these guys so they an see the brighter side of things.

Reading your posts since you started posting here it would seem you are advocating physical force to get your way snowball?

[tbaylx]

Some questions for the Westjetters -

Why is Encore being sold to prospective pilots as a startup? Isn't the Westjet brand well established by now? Why should pilots starting at Encore accept this as a justification for low starting wages? Why not call it what it is, a new aircraft type in the fleet to compliment the fact that the 737 doesn't do well in high frequency markets like "the triangle", or smaller communities?

The only reason it is run as a new and seperate company, wholly owned by Westjet, is to be able to get away with a lower cost structure. Will the CSRs, ground handlers and office staff at Encore also get 80% of industry standard wages? Will it only be Q400 pilots that have to bare the burden of keeping Encore cost effective?

I'm sure it's better for the profit sharing cheque and the share price to do it this way, but how in the world are the Westjetters going to prevent raising 2nd class citizens within the pilot group as a result?

Without a lower cost structure, leading to sustainable, meaningful lower fares and renewed short haul market stimulation, what would be the point of the exercise?

Not launching with the lowest costs in the business would be like starting a banana plantation and trying to make a go of it with the 2nd or 3rd lowest costs to grow bananas and get them on the shelf in Safeway. How on earth would you be successful? For 99% of buyers, a banana is a banana is a banana. It's a commodity.

We all saw what happened when 2 airlines in Canada battled it out with nearly identical costs flying wingtip to wingtip for well over a decade. One nearly went bankrupt, the other ultimately went into bankruptcy protection. That's not a very compelling business case.

Make no mistake about it. Encore is a startup and the benchmark, whether you like it or not, is Sky Regional.

In the early days of WestJet, it was expected that every airframe would generate something around $21.5m a year in revenues. Adjusted for inflation, I suspect it's highly unlikely a Q400 will generate this sort of revenue per airframe per year. How could it be expected to have the same sort of salaries without the same sort of potential revenue stream?

WJ's entry into the market in early 1996 turned commercial aviation economics upside down and caused a sea change in the industry. Encore is likely going to do the same.

One of the things I suspect will change is the often excessive cross subsidization of regionals by mainline operations which has been going on across the industry for years.

I suspect Encore will be set up as a stand alone silo that will not materially benefit from excessive cross subsidization of costs and revenues. Encore will have to sink or swim on its own merits. Launching with anything but the lowest possible costs, as was the case with WJA in 1996, is the only way to ensure success and longevity.

For the record, I am of the opinion that if it is set up correctly in all respects, Encore will be tremendously successful, and by successful, I mean both profitable on a standalone basis and contributing to larger stand alone margins at WestJet mainline. I don't consider managing to stay in business and losing fist fulls of shareholders equity every year, regardless of how good the product is, to be "successful".

I think you give a bit too much credit to WJ for "turning the industry on its head". No doubt about it, WJ stands alone in Canadian aviation for the best managed company. Some smart managers there with people skills, which are a rarity in this industry especially. But....I would debate that WJ was responsible for every other airline going bankrupt. Poor management coupled with recent macro economic events over the last 15 years, as well as deregulation is what did these airlines in, not WJ. If you want to make that argument then Jetsgo was at least as responsible for other airlines troubles with its "low costs" as a new entrant into the market..surely you can't be arguing that? WJ didn't cause a sea of change..they simply returned value to shareholders by being a well run company in a sea of poorly run companies.

I'm sure you guys have thought about it, but I'd be watching very carefully to see how much of main fleet flying is transferred over to the startup at lower wages/costs, especially after recent CEO comments about needs to reduce "legacy" costs at mainline. All it takes is a bunch of leased aircraft not being renewed, and expansion stops at the mainline as the startup absorbs domestic capacity. You basically then voted in the new AC system that ACPA fought hard against where mainline becomes a "long haul" carrier only while the new "Walmart regionals' fly all the other stuff.

[snowball]

Maybe what we need is to have a "meeting" with these guys so they an see the brighter side of things.

Reading your posts since you started posting here it would seem you are advocating physical force to get your way snowball?

Nah. That just wouldnt be right CAT. Some people should have just got a bit more of a slapping from their parents so they can think staight instead of only seeing about 2 inches in front of them.

[Cat Driver]

[Flying Nutcracker]

In the words of Cat Driver... " The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no."

I guess it applies to more than just the "flying" part...

[Valhalla]

Make no mistake about it. Encore is a startup and the benchmark, whether you like it or not, is Sky Regional.

Encore is a wholly owned subsidiary of Westjet. It is NOT a startup the way Westjet was a startup 15 years ago. I'm not debating that the way it's set up is not a good business decision. In fact, I think it's a very shrewd business decision.

The SkyRegional comparison is weak as that company has a completely seperate ownership structure to Air Canada. Plus, shouldn't it be a little embarrassing that the Encore WAWCON is only almost as good as SkyRegional's?

Anyway, happy New Year everyone!

[AJV]

You know what I think is retarded. How a 12 year 767 FO can pull in over 200k a year, and at the same time a first year AC FO slotted into Rouge is making approximately 40k flying the SAME equipment and a tougher sched! Don't give me that experience crap. The only reason why you have 12 years experience on a 767 is because AC hired you to begin with! You most likely never even flew a 767 before showing up. At the end of the day you fly from point A to point B just like every other pilot.

This is what unions have done. They have skewed the appropriate wage for a "X" driver, protected the lazy pilots at the top, and trashed the new guys.

NOW people are mad, because young pilots with over 30 years left in their career are trying to get a great start with a great airline that has great potential for growth.

I absolutely agree with CAT, when he says, maybe some pilots are overpaid....

If I can do the same job at year one as someone at year 12, I should be paid as such. Bring down these ridiculous top end salaries, and level out the pay for equipment. Does a 12 year plumber charge $400.00 an hour because he's been doing it longer? No, he charges industry standard period.

Really? seriously?? if you can do the same job at year one? do you even fly??? you go on a new type and you can do it as well as someone doing it for 12 years? Oh pleeeez! and a 12 year plumber makes way more than a 1st year plumber. Morav, come on! or is it Moron?

[Morav]

You know what I think is retarded. How a 12 year 767 FO can pull in over 200k a year, and at the same time a first year AC FO slotted into Rouge is making approximately 40k flying the SAME equipment and a tougher sched! Don't give me that experience crap. The only reason why you have 12 years experience on a 767 is because AC hired you to begin with! You most likely never even flew a 767 before showing up. At the end of the day you fly from point A to point B just like every other pilot.

This is what unions have done. They have skewed the appropriate wage for a "X" driver, protected the lazy pilots at the top, and trashed the new guys.

NOW people are mad, because young pilots with over 30 years left in their career are trying to get a great start with a great airline that has great potential for growth.

I absolutely agree with CAT, when he says, maybe some pilots are overpaid....

If I can do the same job at year one as someone at year 12, I should be paid as such. Bring down these ridiculous top end salaries, and level out the pay for equipment. Does a 12 year plumber charge $400.00 an hour because he's been doing it longer? No, he charges industry standard period.

Really? seriously?? if you can do the same job at year one? do you even fly??? you go on a new type and you can do it as well as someone doing it for 12 years? Oh pleeeez! and a 12 year plumber makes way more than a 1st year plumber. Morav, come on! or is it Moron?

I would expect a 12 year Captain to be more complacent compared to a recent upgrade. That's my honest opinion and yes, I am a pilot in the industry.

[Bede]

That's why I wish there was only ONE union, if any, in Canada that dictated the terms. No ALPA, NO ACPA, just one union. and every pilot had to belong to it. Our problems would be resolved. Well a lot more than they are now.

Yes one union would solve all our problems. Just like one union solved all the autoworkers problems.

[DTO-2]

That's why I wish there was only ONE union, if any, in Canada that dictated the terms. No ALPA, NO ACPA, just one union. and every pilot had to belong to it. Our problems would be resolved. Well a lot more than they are now.

The College of Professional Pilots of Canada would be a good start…IMHO

[tbaylx]

You know what I think is retarded. How a 12 year 767 FO can pull in over 200k a year, and at the same time a first year AC FO slotted into Rouge is making approximately 40k flying the SAME equipment and a tougher sched! Don't give me that experience crap. The only reason why you have 12 years experience on a 767 is because AC hired you to begin with! You most likely never even flew a 767 before showing up. At the end of the day you fly from point A to point B just like every other pilot.

This is what unions have done. They have skewed the appropriate wage for a "X" driver, protected the lazy pilots at the top, and trashed the new guys.

NOW people are mad, because young pilots with over 30 years left in their career are trying to get a great start with a great airline that has great potential for growth.

I absolutely agree with CAT, when he says, maybe some pilots are overpaid....

If I can do the same job at year one as someone at year 12, I should be paid as such. Bring down these ridiculous top end salaries, and level out the pay for equipment. Does a 12 year plumber charge $400.00 an hour because he's been doing it longer? No, he charges industry standard period.

Really? seriously?? if you can do the same job at year one? do you even fly??? you go on a new type and you can do it as well as someone doing it for 12 years? Oh pleeeez! and a 12 year plumber makes way more than a 1st year plumber. Morav, come on! or is it Moron?

I would expect a 12 year Captain to be more complacent compared to a recent upgrade. That's my honest opinion and yes, I am a pilot in the industry.

Just wow....and i guess 12 years of crossing oceans in the middle of the night, dodging weather, dealing with foreign ATC, making all the little decisions that make the operation run smoothly..you know stuff that only "experience" teaches aren't worth anything. But you must be right, experienced captains are all complacent compared to the newly minted fresh upgrade. Either that or they are making things look so easy using their experience that you think they're complacent. Otherwise we might as well just fire all the year 2+ captains and upgrade a fresh bunch every year to make sure we have the best pilots in the left seat.

[complexintentions]

If there really are 737 drivers making over 300k/year, then it would seem the reason why there isn't money to pay the start-up wages is pretty obvious. Hopefully, some of the senior mainline pilots at WestJet will personally go thank the Dash guys when they get online, for being willing to make so little, to help them make so much. (*sarcasm*)

I really doubt the accountants will be able to resist putting downward pressure on the mainline pilots wages if these guys "lining up" to work for Encore turns out to be true. It's just simple business. They raised FO wages when the upgrade time increased. Now the leverage is in the other direction in a big way. And the cost pressures from the likes of Sky Regional will only exacerbate the situation.

It would seem the absolute only defenders of the new wage package are...mainline WestJet pilots. Easy to earnestly defend something distasteful when it doesn't seem to affect you, I suppose. Easy to dress up barely livable wages as "good, responsible management" - but I doubt you you will see it that way when they come for your own WACON. You don't even seem to realize that by enabling this, you've handed the company a powerful tool to extract concessions from...yourselves! Some call it racing to the bottom, I call it shooting yourself in the foot.

All I know is, the rare times that I get down about the overseas gig, I'm going to come back and read this thread over and over, it makes me pretty good about myself!

Happy New Year from the sandpit.