Encore WACON released and surprise, it sucks

[Stu Pidasso]

I would expect a 12 year Captain to be more complacent compared to a recent upgrade. That's my honest opinion and yes, I am a pilot in the industry.

A very naive "Pilot in the Industry."

The 12 year Captain will get you from A - B without raising an eyebrow. When you crawl into the back seat of the Twin Otter on floats, would you prefer the Pilot with the ink drying on his Float Endorsement, or the Captain that has been into that river a few dozen times? If you have a problem with the intrinsic value of "experience," you are in the wrong business.

Please tell me where a 767 F/O is earning 200K/year?

Only Pilots are stupid enough to suggest we drop the high end, in favor of the low end, verses attempting to improve the bottom end of the industry. Nobody (of sound mind,) in any other Profession, sits around and says; " I earned...way to much, I should take a paycut so the junior guy can get a raise."

How about we admit, the entry level in our Profession is an embarassment and we should do something about it?

[7thirtyseven]

Some questions for the Westjetters -

Why is Encore being sold to prospective pilots as a startup? Isn't the Westjet brand well established by now? Why should pilots starting at Encore accept this as a justification for low starting wages? Why not call it what it is, a new aircraft type in the fleet to compliment the fact that the 737 doesn't do well in high frequency markets like "the triangle", or smaller communities?

The only reason it is run as a new and seperate company, wholly owned by Westjet, is to be able to get away with a lower cost structure. Will the CSRs, ground handlers and office staff at Encore also get 80% of industry standard wages? Will it only be Q400 pilots that have to bare the burden of keeping Encore cost effective?

I'm sure it's better for the profit sharing cheque and the share price to do it this way, but how in the world are the Westjetters going to prevent raising 2nd class citizens within the pilot group as a result?

Without a lower cost structure, leading to sustainable, meaningful lower fares and renewed short haul market stimulation, what would be the point of the exercise?

Not launching with the lowest costs in the business would be like starting a banana plantation and trying to make a go of it with the 2nd or 3rd lowest costs to grow bananas and get them on the shelf in Safeway. How on earth would you be successful? For 99% of buyers, a banana is a banana is a banana. It's a commodity.

We all saw what happened when 2 airlines in Canada battled it out with nearly identical costs flying wingtip to wingtip for well over a decade. One nearly went bankrupt, the other ultimately went into bankruptcy protection. That's not a very compelling business case.

Make no mistake about it. Encore is a startup and the benchmark, whether you like it or not, is Sky Regional.

In the early days of WestJet, it was expected that every airframe would generate something around $21.5m a year in revenues. Adjusted for inflation, I suspect it's highly unlikely a Q400 will generate this sort of revenue per airframe per year. How could it be expected to have the same sort of salaries without the same sort of potential revenue stream?

WJ's entry into the market in early 1996 turned commercial aviation economics upside down and caused a sea change in the industry. Encore is likely going to do the same.

One of the things I suspect will change is the often excessive cross subsidization of regionals by mainline operations which has been going on across the industry for years.

I suspect Encore will be set up as a stand alone silo that will not materially benefit from excessive cross subsidization of costs and revenues. Encore will have to sink or swim on its own merits. Launching with anything but the lowest possible costs, as was the case with WJA in 1996, is the only way to ensure success and longevity.

For the record, I am of the opinion that if it is set up correctly in all respects, Encore will be tremendously successful, and by successful, I mean both profitable on a standalone basis and contributing to larger stand alone margins at WestJet mainline. I don't consider managing to stay in business and losing fist fulls of shareholders equity every year, regardless of how good the product is, to be "successful".

Excellent except the bold paragraph. It would probably be more accurate to say WestJet took advantage of a "sea change in aviation", not caused it. Perhaps a chicken and egg distinction but more likely all the external factors far outweight the internal. In other words the situation at large "formed" westjet, not the other way around. This does not take the hard work nor smart decisions out of the equation, just puts them in their proper perspective.

[whoresfly]

That's why I wish there was only ONE union, if any, in Canada that dictated the terms. No ALPA, NO ACPA, just one union. and every pilot had to belong to it. Our problems would be resolved. Well a lot more than they are now.

The College of Professional Pilots of Canada would be a good start…IMHO

Wouldn't you need to have a college degree to join a college?

[FICU]

but I doubt you you will see it that way when they come for your own WACON. You don't even seem to realize that by enabling this, you've handed the company a powerful tool to extract concessions from...yourselves! Some call it racing to the bottom, I call it shooting yourself in the foot.

Agreed, I would also use "shooting yourself in the foot" when it applies to your own working conditions but when it applies to other companies WAWCON, potentially mine, it is the "race to the bottom". I have great WAWCON at my present job, on par with WJ less the ESP and I don't work nearly as hard as they do. I am very worried about what our next collective agreement might look like when my management sees what other companies are getting away.

For the WJ pilots trying to paint the rosey future of Encore based on the success of mainline as a start up, please don't. There is nothing to compare... Encore is owned by the most profitable airline in the country and there is no reason to offer WAWCON based on that of a pure start up like SR. They do it because they know pilots and they know pilots will agree to anything to fly airplanes.

I was hoping Encore would buck the trend of the downward spiral in this industry...

[CanadianEh]

I think most people here can agree what the problem is in this industry, but it's time we get serious about the solution(s).

Although I will get flamed for this comment, I believe the single best way to increase WAWCON is to limit the number of pilots being trained. With the number of foreign students that are training in Canada now and the lucrative jobs overseas, I believe that eventually there will be a lesser pool of pilots for Canadian companies to draw from. Especially since the new generation is big on instant gratification/reward and aviation is far from an industry that provides this. I also think that the College of Pilots initiative (spearheaded by a WESTJET pilot) is worth supporting. Lots of good ideas and willing individuals fighting for our profession.

[Realitychex]

[/quote]

I think you give a bit too much credit to WJ for "turning the industry on its head". No doubt about it, WJ stands alone in Canadian aviation for the best managed company. Some smart managers there with people skills, which are a rarity in this industry especially. But....I would debate that WJ was responsible for every other airline going bankrupt. Poor management coupled with recent macro economic events over the last 15 years, as well as deregulation is what did these airlines in, not WJ. If you want to make that argument then Jetsgo was at least as responsible for other airlines troubles with its "low costs" as a new entrant into the market..surely you can't be arguing that? WJ didn't cause a sea of change..they simply returned value to shareholders by being a well run company in a sea of poorly run companies.[/quote]

Everywhere WJ went, yields collapsed for the incumbents.

I've personally seen irrefutable documentation from one airline that saw it's margins in Western Canada drop from +7% to -23% between 1995 and 1998, whilst WJ was producing industry leading profits.

Other airlines were forced to rewrite their business plans as a result of the collapse of yield and revenue. They had no choice. In some instances, WestJet's yields were lower than their competitors costs.

Were the other airlines successful and able to produce profitable quarters year after year after year after cost cutting / restructuring? It's pretty hard to make that argument given the trail of bankruptcies and collapses in the industry since 1996. Their problem was that WJ kept expanding the problem with the addition of every tail as more markets were added and fixed costs were diluted. It was an ever changing target. It was, and remains akin to the the little dutch boy valiantly trying to plug holes in the dyke with his fingers, then toes. Eventually, you run out of digits.

I suspect Encore will have a similar impact on the industry over the next 3-5 years, provided they get it right.

Countless domestic and trans-border markets that are currently safe harbors for high yields and revenues that underwrite losses on other routes are going to disappear one by one, just as they disappeared as WJ expanded from coast to coast, into the US and to sun destinations. I can think of 30 new destinations in the US and Canada that will undoubtedly be on Encore's hit list and at least another half dozen destinations that could be added by WJA as aircraft are free'd up by Encore operating short haul flights. The increased number of city pairs offered within WJ's own network is massive and most certainly will result in change being forced on the industry.

Where there's change, there's opportunity.

[anonymity]

Realitychex, it is going to take a great deal of restraint on my part not to say what I'm really thinking about this. This is absolutely nothing to brag about, it further solidifies my feeling that WJ is the main source of Canada's race to the bottom, you started it with WJ mainline, by working for the worst narrowbody jet wages in North America and basically betting it all on black(stock options),the result is what you have clearly outlined below.
Now that the damage is irrevocable, you've come back to finish off with the same bottom feeding strategy and the most sickening thing, you have the audacity to somehow justify this as a good thing. Good for who! guess thats what happens when pilots become "owners" Congrats you're officially worse than AC pilots, at least they did what they did out of a perceived need for revenge, you're just like every other CEO in North America,looking out for the bottom line and your own interest.
One shinning light for me, Jazz is no longer the bottom feeders, for now we lead the industry, I will enjoy that for as long as it last. As for you, you truly need a Reality Check...
coming soon to a negotiations near you....

Everywhere WJ went, yields collapsed for the incumbents.

I've personally seen irrefutable documentation from one airline that saw it's margins in Western Canada drop from +7% to -23% between 1995 and 1998, whilst WJ was producing industry leading profits.

Other airlines were forced to rewrite their business plans as a result of the collapse of yield and revenue. They had no choice. In some instances, WestJet's yields were lower than their competitors costs.

[FICU]

Everywhere WJ went, yields collapsed for the incumbents...

...I suspect Encore will have a similar impact on the industry over the next 3-5 years, provided they get it right.

So who is WJ/Encore going to be putting out of business and or forcing depressed WAWCON on in the next 3-5 years?

Calm Air?
Provincial?
Georgian?
CMA?
Porter?
Jazz?
Sky Regional?

I'm sure it's all ok with WJers though because "Where there's change, there's opportunity" and that opportunity will be a chance to be put on the bottom of the WJ/Encore seniority list.

[Donald]

Just out of curiosity...will passengers be booking flights on Encore directly, or will they be booking WJ flights that happen to be operated by Encore?

Will it be the same as Jazz, ie people book AC flights operated by Jazz?

[anonymity]

Well, considering that they aren't blazing any new trails here, just recycling old tried and true methods and also considering that a reservation system is a huge expense, I'm going with booking on WJ, just a guess though.

[Troubleshot]

"Where there's change, there's opportunity. "

Where have I heard this before?....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyenRCJ_4Ww

[silverstar]

Realitychex you are so far out in left field it's not even funny. Is this entire thread an early April fool's joke?

[Realitychex]

Realitychex you are so far out in left field it's not even funny. Is this entire thread an early April fool's joke?

That's exactly what they said in 1995.....

[Flying Nutcracker]

I think I smell popcorn... And just heard the popping sound of a can opening...

Please proceed!

[matrix]

That's exactly what they said in 1995.....

I for one thank you and the others for all that you did.

It's amazing that 17 years later people still dont get it.

[racetothebottom]

So encore is the future...the future of our careers as pilots. I do not like what I see! I used to think WJ was a fair company, and maybe a good place to work. It's probably still true for the main line pilots, but how long will it be before their wages start being cut for the sake of "staying competitive"?

We need a Canada wide Pilot union to put an end to the destruction of our profession. Like CALPA, before AC DESTROYED it...

If I had known when I started in this industry that it would turn out like this, pilots cutting each others necks to chase iron, I never would have become a pilot. The problem is I like what I do, and now it feels too late to start over. So do I stick it out and hope to be able to feed my family in ten years or jump ship to over seas where the pay is good and never see my family?

Anyone have a better solution?

All the best to my brothers and sisters out there trying to stay a float in this crazy industry. Hopefully the new year brings you good tidings!

[silverstar]

That's exactly what they said in 1995.....

Keep telling yourselves that boys when it come time to "revisit" your 737 wages.

Westjet is offering $68/hour for the left seat of a Q400 and $38/hour for the right seat and we have people sitting here trying to justify that.

Are any of the new hires at mainline worried that they may not be flying a 737 in a year or two from now after Encore becomes just too cost effective to justify operating 737's on many of their existing routes?

[flyer 1492]

Not only will WJ benefit from the lower pilot wages, but when Encore is at a airport other than YYC,YEG,YVR,YYZ then it will be staffed by Encore ramp, csa's, etc also at a lower wage. I bet no one asked that question during the roadshows.

[Morav]

College of Pilots?

[teacher]

I will restrain myself from ranting as HARD as that is to do at this point. I will say one thing though. Encore like Sky Regional are an INSULT to the piloting profession for 1 simple reason. Other pilots agreed to allow this and WORSE YET, WJ pilots voted on it.

These wages and working conditions are EVEN WORSE than the CCAA WACON that people punked Jazz about prior to our new contract and yet some of those same people are justifying Encore's pathetic excuse for compensation and work rules. Betting on over time to make up for poor wages is a joke considering guys will be working 20 days a month. Over time does not make up for lousy WACON. What will the job add say? Those with families and a life need not apply? Pathetic and even more so is the fact that these things happened with the support of other pilots.

I guess I ranted after all.

[Fanblade]

Guys,

Realitychex is speaking like an entrepreneur not like a pilot. And he is absolutely right. The start of encore will accelerate change in the regional market.

No, not good for the profession. But an entrepreneur doesn't care. They care about a profitable business model. About exploiting the competitors weaknesses. Success through competition.

AC has a massive weakness in regional cost. An entrepreneur will naturally smell blood. AC will be forced to react in kind. It is why AC wanted so badly from ACPA the ability to have multiple CPA players. AC could not allow themselves to be hamstrung to a single CPA for 5 more years, now that Encore is about to happen.

Is the regional fight going to be aggressive? Oh my gosh....Yes. It will be a war AC wont take lightly this time.

Will pilots get hurt? Yup.

Will someone make money? Yup.

Will AC become aggressive looking for cheaper feed? Yup....no choice now.

Is Encore going to be the catalyst for this change? Yup

[Fanblade]

I will restrain myself from ranting as HARD as that is to do at this point. I will say one thing though. Encore like Sky Regional are an INSULT to the piloting profession for 1 simple reason. Other pilots agreed to allow this and WORSE YET, WJ pilots voted on it.

Teacher,

I agree with your entire post and the frustration you are putting out there. However, that WAWCON is the new reality. Be competitive with it or parish.

That is the message Realitychex is sending.

He is right. No he doesn't care about your family, your life, your experience, or your contribution.

He sees an opportunity and he wants to win. That means someone else loses. That simple.

AC will do their best not to lose. That leaves employees to take the hit. More specifically flight crew.

Although I don't like it. Encore and the new scope provisions in the ACPA contract will radically change the regional landscape. Encore the catalyst. Scope change at AC the response.

With Calin at the helm of AC this will get ugly. Make no mistake. He wont just sit and watch. Reaction will be as swift as he can make it happen.

[FICU]

Pathetic and even more so is the fact that these things happened with the support of other pilots.

Those "other" pilots are only looking at one thing... share value of WJ stock. They seem to care nothing about our profession after reading some of the comments here.

[flyer 1492]

Teacher,

There is only one word for it: GREED

[Fanblade]

Realitychex you are so far out in left field it's not even funny. Is this entire thread an early April fool's joke?

Nope no joke.

I doubt Realitychex is a pilot. Or if he has a licence it isn't what he does for a living.

Sounds a lot like one of the founders of WJ as a matter of fact.

Anyone getting it yet?

And no........don't take his words lightly. I think he is right.

WJ has a big fat bulls eye on the regional market because they have identified it as fat on Labour cost. The start up is designed to exploit the competitors WAWCON. That simple.

Start up will now begat start up which will begat start up in the never ending quest to lower the only thing they can squeeze more out of. Employees.

If you don't? You parish.

Welcome to the Americanization of Canadian regional carriers.