Horribly sad

[GyvAir]

your holier than thouness

sanctimonious

Interesting choice of words to be applying to others, coming from someone who seems to be advocating death as an appropriate and just penalty for theft.

[FlyGy]

your holier than thouness

sanctimonious

Interesting choice of words to be applying to others, coming from someone who seems to be advocating death as an appropriate and just penalty for theft.

I was wondering when someone was gonna finally comment that I am being a sanctimonious holier than thou prick, (my words for myself) but at least I can admit my failings...which, by definition is the opposite of sanctimonious and holier than thou. I never said it was a just and appropriate penalty, all I said was that I have more sympathy for the inanimate aircraft than I do for the thief who stole it.

[flyinthebug]

Interesting the different attitudes here, ranging from the sanctimonious to the callous, from people who normally get along, at least to a certain extent....etc etc


It was a dumb way to die. Sad or not.

This is by far the wisest post made in this thread.

On your scale, I guess my reply falls in the sanctimonious category. I didnt intend to come across as "ohmygodthisistheworstthingeverinthehistoryofmankind" as that would be rather ridiculous... but I do have empathy for a 17 year old kid who made a very bad decision (perhaps fuelled by an adult that gave him a set of keys, but thats just hear say at this point) and paid with his life and 2 of his friends lives. If the boy did steal the plane, I can assure you his sentence would not have been death, had he completed a successful flight with it. It certainly wouldnt have resulted in the death of 2 friends who may or may not have known their friend was not yet licenced?

What was so "shocking" to me was the "callousness" of some of the members towards the death of 3 kids. It wasnt the event that shocked me, just the way some are perceiving this kid like he`s some desperate criminal who just couldnt seem to stop himself.

It was going to be a cool thing to show off to his buddies that he could fly an airplane with 2 engines...thats all he was really able to consider at age 17. The consequences for his actions likely never even entered his head and the adrenline(sp?) of the moment was likely making decisions for him at that point. He is hardly a criminal. A thief, maybe, but not a criminal. Just a dumb kid.

For me though Meatservo, this hit too close to home for me so im unable to take my emotion out of the whole thing...so thank you for saying what I want to say...even if my words seemed "sanctimonious" The loss of life was sad forsure but not "ohmygod....." sad. The attacks on the kid were what was "unsettling" to me. After all, we ALL did things in our teens we wouldnt dream of repeating in our 40s...right?

Either way, well said on almost all levels Meat.

Fly safe all.

[Dutchpilotguy]

Well, someone was negligent here... Perhaps criminally, and it produced a culture for these kids that allowed them to feel comfortable doing what they did. Call it theft, call it borrow, call it skillfully acquire, it doesn't matter- they're dead.

DAR is absolutely bang on with his comments. Perhaps it's where we all come from in our past that makes us the way we are in our posts today. But that also doesn't matter- they're dead. And for people like DAR and myself (and others who have seen wasted lives and dreams), we protect ourselves by stating what is most obvious to us. "They shouldn't have been there." And to those who were just going through life doing their very best, we take on the burden and ask "why?". Watch Jaread... That guy should have kept his head down...

I cannot empathize with this situation, and regardless of what is said here- they're dead. I would suspect that good parents would reflect on this experience and I would hope that they find it in themselves to find some measure of blame- not all... But some.

DPG out!

[FlyGy]

He is hardly a criminal. A thief, maybe, but not a criminal.

Some might argue that a thief actually is a criminal...that's why they go to jail when they get caught.

[Driving Rain]

I'm wondering about insurance. Could be the reason for the pissing match over took without permission, stole or what ever. I was under the impression that if you have the keys to a vehicle you have care and control in the eyes of the law.

[GyvAir]

I had an incident a while ago where property of mine was damaged by a vehicle "being driven without the owner's consent". The driver was related in some way to the owner of the vehicle.
It was explained to me that as far as insurance goes, the insurance company was not liable for any third party damages caused if the vehicle was either stolen or driven without consent. Their only interest in making the distinction between the two situations was that if the vehicle was in fact stolen, they would pay for the loss of the vehicle; if it was taken without consent, they were wiping their hands of the whole affair and making no payments to anybody.
In this case, the owner of the vehicle chose not to declare it stolen, I presume as it would have resulted in criminal charges being filed against their relative, who fortunately didn't die as a result of their indiscretion. Likely not a difficult decision, despite the immediate cost of replacing the vehicle out of pocket.

[chinglish]

"The mother is adamant the owner of the aircraft gave her son the key to his de-registered aircraft, along with airport access codes, and had multiple flights in the doomed aircraft."

I take it back, I no longer feel bad for the parents...

[CFR]

As always with any crash there will be speculation as to cause. While nothing beyond the pilot being unqualified has been issued, does anyone else find the fact that there was no post-crash fire interesting?

[bizjets101]

N7700Y 1965 Piper Twin Comanche

[Dutchpilotguy]

7700... The irony... And a tactfully placed "Y" to boot...

[TG]

"The mother is adamant the owner of the aircraft gave her son the key to his de-registered aircraft, along with airport access codes, and had multiple flights in the doomed aircraft."

I take it back, I no longer feel bad for the parents...

Well, I would also be adamant to anyone giving my teens free access to anything that can really bite their @ss.
--->Without my consent or at list my knowledge!<---

Sure, you cannot control everything which is not the point.
But you can still hope, as a parent, being able to do some "weeding/teaching/supervision" through whatever paths your kids choose to take.

[Meatservo]

"Adamant" just means that one is insisting that what one is saying is in fact the truth. As in: "meatservo was adamant that the beer was still there when he left to go to the washroom" for example. It doesn't mean that the woman was angry or happy, just that she is insisting that it is in fact the case that the boy had the keys.

[MUSKEG]

If this kid was dumb enough to take the airplane in those conditions he probably had no qualms about telling his mom that the keys were given to him which just my not be true. Whether you admit it or not it speaks to character. Also why is the old guy taking heat for letting his registration lapse? It's his airplane and he could do what he wants with it in that regard.

[pelmet]

.

[pelmet]

What was so "shocking" to me was the "callousness" of some of the members towards the death of 3 kids. It wasnt the event that shocked me, just the way some are perceiving this kid like he`s some desperate criminal who just couldnt seem to stop himself.

It was going to be a cool thing to show off to his buddies that he could fly an airplane with 2 engines...thats all he was really able to consider at age 17. The consequences for his actions likely never even entered his head and the adrenline(sp?) of the moment was likely making decisions for him at that point. He is hardly a criminal. A thief, maybe, but not a criminal. Just a dumb kid.

For me though Meatservo, this hit too close to home for me so im unable to take my emotion out of the whole thing...so thank you for saying what I want to say...even if my words seemed "sanctimonious" The loss of life was sad forsure but not "ohmygod....." sad. The attacks on the kid were what was "unsettling" to me. After all, we ALL did things in our teens we wouldnt dream of repeating in our 40s...right?

Either way, well said on almost all levels Meat.

Fly safe all.

What's so callous about not feeling bad for the PIC. The unfortunate thing is the unsuspecting pax that he killed and the aircraft of course.

He also nearly killed people on the ground as he crashed near a house. Apparently you did some foolish things when younger and based on your posts, probably semi-laugh about it now when you tell your entertaining stories to people about the crazy things you did while you endangered us. "35 years ago, we thought it was fun to get a bottle of whiskey and load the car up with as many people we could fit in a 1972 Chevy Belair (8 on a good day) then drive 100 mph down dirt roads and laughing our asses off the whole time...completely oblivious to the danger that surrounded us".

Personally, I am quite happy when I hear about a single car, single person drunk driving death. Good riddance and no bystanders life ruined this time. I don't care about the danger that surrounded you, only the danger you were to us. Perhaps you feel for your irresponsible bretheren, many of whom have killed numerous bystanders along the way. You may be surprised to find out that a lot of us did not do these sorts of things. Feel free to keep trying to blame the guy who gave out the keys though.

To the family that may read this, I apologize for my peers responses to this.

To the families of the tens of thousands injured and killed over the years by these ##&*%$# drunk drivers, I apologize for my peer's response that "Boys will be boys" as an excuse.

[flyinthebug]

Pelmet...

I have a feeling that my explanation will fall on deaf ears, but with nothing better to do on a sat am...here goes.

It may surprise you that I feel the same as you in regards to a drunk driver doing us all a favour and checking out on his/her own while not endangering anyone else. I dont know how old you are, but drunk driving in 1979 was viewed far differently than it is in 2013. In 1979 drunk driving was "frowned upon" but also loosely tolerated as part of society back then. But other than a story I shared of a (very sober on the day of his death) friend killing himself at 17 years old by making a stupid decision. Where the hell does drunk driving have anything to do with this? Just as a final FYI to this, I do not ever tell the stories of that accident with any sort of smile on my face or when we drove around that way (it was a small town of 220 people and dirt roads for miles and miles) infact I shake my head in disbelief that we could all have been so stupid? We did not do that on a daily, weekly, or even monthly basis...but we did on occasion do just that. As I look back, I am grateful we didnt hurt ourselves or more importantly as you pointed out; someone else. I do look back at some stupid things we ALL did as kids and smile, but never when I think about the times we risked other innocent peoples lives (and ignorance is no excuse, but maybe youthful ignorance is?). I was only hoping to point out with the story, that we all have done things as teens that we would never do now.

The kid in this story made a very bad decision that cost him and his friends lives. If you can`t muster up any empathy, maybe some common human sympathy for the ones he left behind? He looked like a nice young man in his pic wouldnt you agree? Kinda a big waste anytime we lose kids for any reason.

You can be as cold as you wish I dont care. If it was your 17 year old son I`d bet the farm you`d have a different view of this situation.

Fly safe. FTB

[EA757]

Flyinthebug,

Well stated, and from the heart.
Thank you.

[bizjets101]

We should kill all the smokers while we're at it - they kill more non-smokers than drunk drivers kill other people . . . just saying.

I don't take joy in young lives being snuffed out, even by stupidity - nor do I condone taken/stealing someones property - specifically an aircraft.

It is a fine line between stolen and without permission - in this case I think either charge would have stuck.

The owner did know the kid, but he'd only taken him flying once, two years ago in a single. He'd (the kid) never flown in the Twin Comanche before.

The aircraft was fully updated and the owner had planned to re-register the aircraft.

Owner has lawyered up (wisely) so no comment on the key, but I find it highly unlikely the owner gave up a key, though they are fully cooperating with investigation.

NTSB will really only focus on the crash.

[pelmet]

I do look back at some stupid things we ALL did as kids

In order to keep the thread on track, I won't debate further about opinions on tolerating drunk driving many years ago or even dangerous driving down dirt roads at high speed.

But please don't assume, when discussing this particular subject, that we ALL did things like that, as you keep on emphasizing.

[CFR]

Is a key even required in the Twin Commanche? On the Seneca I flew the only key would have been for the door lock (and baggage compartment) the mags were simply rocker switches.

[bizjets101]

Hmmm your good!!


1966 Twin Comanche (I always spelled Commanche, google says Comanche!! Who knew?)

[GyvAir]

I'm pretty sure my Craftsman tool box key will unlock the doors on 75% of the GA aircraft over 20 years old and start half the Cessnas with keyed mag switches.
BTW, I know this from honest experience, not through youthful indiscretion.

As far as the whole discussion of kids being kids, we may perceive this youth as having taken it to something of an extreme because it included theft of an aircraft and ended spectacularly badly, but that's just a technicality when compared to many other typical high risk teenage behaviours.
I suspect that those being adamant about having never done stupid and reckless things that could have harmed themselves or others while in their teens are being rather selective about what they're including. Teens are very susceptible to peer pressure and will do many things to fit in or appear cool that they probably wouldn't when more mature. I think circumstance, situation and the mix of company present often have more influence on decision making than good upbringing and good judgement when it comes to teens.
How many of us can honestly say that as youths, we were completely innocent of engaging in any of the following typical risky teenage activities, all of which have potential to harm both the individual and/or others? This is a very limited list; I’m sure teens have far more imagination than I for getting into trouble.
Smoking, drug/alcohol abuse, truancy, cheating, unprotected sex, trespassing, vandalism, gate hopping, shoplifting, bullying, reckless/careless/impaired driving, using parents' car without permission, reckless sports or stunts…

[CFR]

I'm pretty sure my Craftsman tool box key will unlock the doors on 75% of the GA aircraft over 20 years old and start half the Cessnas with keyed mag switches.

I suspect that the keyed ignition switch was more for being able to physically remove something to ensure mags are not left in the on position, than security of the aircraft. After all the switch grounds the magnetoes it doesn't turn them "on" so a pair of side cutters under the cowl can get the A/C ready to fire up. Many aircraft do not have keys. Flying a Citabria in the summer with the door off, has no means of securing the aircraft (locking the door being only a limited means anyway).

[burhead1]

I'm pretty sure my Craftsman tool box key will unlock the doors on 75% of the GA aircraft over 20 years old and start half the Cessnas with keyed mag switches.

When I was renting, it didn't seem to matter what or who's key you used, they all seemed to work.