Callsign first of last when replying?

[Class 1 Instructor]

Here's a question: if ATC asks you standby, do you acknowledge?

No by ATC answering you to tell you to standby, you have established communication with them. Simply say nothing until they call you back. The only exception would be if there was a situtation that required immediate action by ATC, like you needed an immediate heading or altitude change, in which case you decline ATC's request to standby and comminicate your needs. Obviously there should be a pretty good reason for this.

Since were talking radio procedures I will throw in a personal observation. I teach my students to never say the word takeoff. When they are holding short and are ready for takeoff they say for example "ABC 18 at Alpha, Ready". When tower clears them for takeoff they say "cleared to go 18 ABC". The reason for this is I once observed a near midair caused by a student pilot hearing "Cleared for takeoff" from an aircraft on another runway and thought it was tower telling him to takeoff.

I admit however that this is a personal SOP and is not supported by TC's radio directions, but I still think it is a better way of doing things.

[Class 1 Instructor]

Yes, I tell them there is no room to stand, but I can "Fly by" if they wish.

I sure hope you fly better then you tell "jokes".......

Who's joking?

If I actually heard someone say "there is no room to stand, but I can "Fly by" if they wish" on the radio after ATC requested them to standby, I would consider them to be a moron.....

[photofly]

Re: "standby" - thanks, that's what I thought.

Since were talking radio procedures I will throw in a personal observation. I teach my students to never say the word takeoff. When they are holding short and are ready for takeoff they say for example "ABC 18 at Alpha, Ready". When tower clears them for takeoff they say "cleared to go 18 ABC".

I seem to recall it as a British thing (maybe historical?) that the word "take-off" should only be used as part of a clearance, i.e. "cleared for takeoff". Regardless, for all other situations I stick to "departure": "GXXX holding short of 26 on Bravo, ready for departure, VFR" - then when cleared, "Cleared takeoff 26 GXXX".

EDIT: I see the Radiotelephony Manual does the same thing, but it doesn't make a big deal out of the distinction.

EDIT II: yes it is a British thing - CAP 413 1.15.3: "The words 'TAKE-OFF' are used only when an aircraft is cleared for take-off. At all other times the word 'DEPARTURE' is used."

[Class 1 Instructor]

Since were talking radio procedures I will throw in a personal observation. I teach my students to never say the word takeoff. When they are holding short and are ready for takeoff they say for example "ABC 18 at Alpha, Ready". When tower clears them for takeoff they say "cleared to go 18 ABC".

I seem to recall it as a British thing (maybe historical?) that the word "take-off" should only be used as part of a clearance, i.e. "cleared for takeoff". Regardless, for all other situations I stick to "departure: "GXXX holding short of 26 on Bravo, ready for departure, VFR" - then when cleared, "Cleared takeoff 26 GXXX".

I guess I am a bit of a radio Nazi when it comes to extraeneous words in my students radio transmisions.

"GXXX holding short of 26 on Bravo, ready for departure, VFR" is of course perfectly acceptable but, and I don't want to sound rude or condescending here, I would respectfully submit that about half the words in your example are not really necessary.

If you are calling in at the line you are by definition "holding short" so they are not needed, if you are ready then again the only thing you would be ready for is "for departure" so those words are not really necessary and tower will already know you are not IFR so you again are by defintion VFR and don't need to tell them that.

[FlyGy]

Okay, all pissing around aside....When I'm told to Standby, I don't touch the radio again until I am either called or a significant amount of time has elapsed that I think I might have been forgotten and I really need to call in now. At our tower there is often one controller for ground and tower, so even if there is no chatter on the tower freq, he may be busy on ground.

When I'm ready for departure all I say is "C-GABC is ready to depart, 26."

[photofly]

I don't want to sound rude or condescending here, I would respectfully submit that about half the words in your example are not really necessary.

I don't find it rude - if I wasn't soliciting your comments I wouldn't have posted it.

If you are calling in at the line you are by definition "holding short" so they are not needed, if you are ready then again the only thing you would be ready for is "for departure" so those words are not really necessary and tower will already know you are not IFR so you again are by defintion VFR and don't need to tell them that.

Perhaps it's a bit context sensitive. Typically that would be my first transmission on the Tower frequency, and it seems sensible for the first transmission to a new controller to confirm to them where you are. "Ready for departure" I much prefer to just "ready" - the phrase "ready for departure" does appear in the various publications. So although I would likely not be ready for anything else, I will probably stick with it. The VFR thing - you're probably right; though I recall that IFR departures should state they are such.

[Lurch]

Okay, all pissing around aside

When I'm ready for departure all I say is "C-GABC is ready to depart, 26."

The "C" never needs to be spoken while in Canadian airspace

I almost say the same and at this point we're picking fly shit from pepper.

"GABC Holding Short 26 Ready"

I have found including "holding short" usually keeps ATC from asking, I'm not sure what their MANOPs state and am curious if any ATC are reading.

I was also taught that "Take-Off" and "Landing" are only to be spoken when cleared.

Lurch

[FlyGy]

Ahh, I was told to say all five letters until ATC shortens it to three, then I can use those three too. I've stuck with it since.

[Lurch]

Ahh, I was told to say all five letters until ATC shortens it to three, then I can use those three too. I've stuck with it since.

That is correct, except it's you must say the last 4 letters until ATC shortens

Canadian Private Civil Aircraft and Canadian or Foreign Carriers Without an Assigned Radiotelephony Designator:

(a) Initial contact: The manufacturer’s name or the type of aircraft, followed by the last four characters of the registration.

Examples:

Cessna GADT (CESSNA GOLF ALFA DELTA TANGO)
Aztec FADT (AZTEC FOXTROT ALFA DELTA TANGO)

NOTE: The words “helicopter,” “glider” or “ultralight” are an acceptable substitute for the type of aircraft when these types of aircraft are used.

(b) Subsequent communications: May be abbreviated to the last three characters of the registration, if this abbreviation is initiated by ATS.

Examples:

Cessna GADT becomes “ADT” (ALFA DELTA TANGO)
Aztec FADT becomes “ADT” (ALFA DELTA TANGO)]

Lurch

[ahramin]

Since were talking radio procedures I will throw in a personal observation. I teach my students to never say the word takeoff. When they are holding short and are ready for takeoff they say for example "ABC 18 at Alpha, Ready". When tower clears them for takeoff they say "cleared to go 18 ABC".

Here is a perfect example of what not to do. Standard phraseology is standard phraseology and it is what all pilots should be using. Standard phraseology does NOT mean disregard standard phraseology and instead invent your own phraseology. Making up your own personal way of speaking on the radio doesn't prevent accidents: it CAUSES them.

[Class 1 Instructor]

Since were talking radio procedures I will throw in a personal observation. I teach my students to never say the word takeoff. When they are holding short and are ready for takeoff they say for example "ABC 18 at Alpha, Ready". When tower clears them for takeoff they say "cleared to go 18 ABC".

Here is a perfect example of what not to do. Standard phraseology is standard phraseology and it is what all pilots should be using. Standard phraseology does NOT mean disregard standard phraseology and instead invent your own phraseology. Making up your own personal way of speaking on the radio doesn't prevent accidents: it CAUSES them.

Ahramin

First of all as a moderator I would think you would be interested in encouraging a respectful and useful dialog among posters on this site. Your post basically accuses me of advocating actions that will "CAUSE" accidents, something I think any reasonable minded person would consider as a gross exaggeration of the contents of my post.

I would suggest that you could have gotten your point across in a way that would demonstrate an example of how to disagree with someone without flaming them, unless of course you actually meant to encouraging people to yell at each other......

My protest aside your point has some validity which is why I made sure to note in the preamble my comments that what I was advocating was a personal preference and not supported by the regulations. I see no mechanism on how not saying the word "takeoff" would cause an accident and suggested instead that there was another way. Whether anyone should adopt all or part of what I say is of course totally up to them.

Slavishly following every regulation to the letter does not guarantee safety while modifying a official procedure does not automatically mean safety is compromised. The AIM says that all transmissions should start with the call sign yet the SOP for Air Canada, Westjet, JAZZ, Porter etc etc is to place the call sign at the end of the transmission when replying. This convention has become the de facto industry standard because for practical reasons it works better. In this case the book is wrong and everyone ignores its direction. I would suggest this is not the only thing it has gotten wrong and personally consider it an appropriate area of discussion on this forum.

Since you are a moderator and it is your site if you consider this an inappropriate subject to discuss I will cease immediately.

[photofly]

Well, at least he didn't sound "rude or condescending"

I see no mechanism on how not saying the word "takeoff" would cause an accident

How about asking the tower to confirm if you're "cleared to go", instead of "cleared for takeoff" and both they and other (maybe foreign) pilots not having a clue what you're talking about?

The AIM says that all transmissions should start with the call sign

Looking very carefully, I can't find it to say that. Do you have a part/paragraph reference in mind?

[Beefitarian]

I think this was directed at me for, "letter letter letter standing by."

And would you do that, if you knew ATC wanted you to standby because they urgently want the frequency clear to talk to someone else?

Because I didn't listen when switching to the frequency before keying up the mike and blurting out something?
Can't say for sure because I don't do that. Unless I was flustered or something, at which point I made a mistake and will apologize for it after I'm called back from standing by.

If I knew they were busy on another frequency I might just quietly stand by. But if I knew that I would not have called. I might be in, "read back mode." Sorry I'm like that but I will be honest about yet another flaw. Depending on the controller though some want to know you heard them and are, "complying with their commands" in a prompt, accurate and safe manner.

Having came on to say, "letter letter letter, Stand by one." Was a much larger distraction than my short reply.

However I understand what you're saying and it is a valid point, if I can keep it in mind I will wait for the controller to repeat, "stand by" to reply next time one says that. I'm always trying to learn and improve any and all aspects of my flying, so thanks for pointing it out.

"Any conflicting chatter please advise."

[photofly]

Because I didn't listen when switching to the frequency before keying up the mike and blurting out something?

No, I don't think any fault is required, for it to be a reasonable question:

Aircraft: TOWER VICTOR CHARLIE DELTA REQUEST
Tower: VICTOR CHARLIE DELTA STANDBY

One might surmise that the controller may want the frequency clear for an instruction he needs to issue shortly. Do you acknowledge, or not? No criticism intended (by me) for either answer. Personally, I don't - but nor can I get rid of the nagging feeling each time, that I should have. Not a biggie, obviously.

[Beefitarian]

I try to be brief concise and courteous on the radio at all times. This would probably make some of my crazy flare up.

Personally, I don't - but nor can I get rid of the nagging feeling each time, that I should have.

Also I have some fuzzy memory of either being a student and not responding or hearing an exchange of a controller vs. someone else. Maybe both have happened.

The controller came on a second time with the, "Did you hear me?" tone.

Typing back and forth about it your point makes perfect sense though. If they need me to be quiet that's how they would ask. As for a grouchy guy asking a second time I can respond to them when that happens.

[FlyGy]

Okay, here's a scenario for Class I.

I am going to make an assumption here...You're ready for departure and call in your usual way, "ABC at Alpha Ready" What do you do when you land, exit the runway, complete your post landing checks, and switch to ground frequency? Do you say "ABC at Alpha Ready"? Because hey, the ground controller knows that you want to taxi, right?

What happens then if you forget to switch to ground frequency and accidentally say that on the tower freq? Will he be expecting you to depart? What if there was a change of controller between the time you were cleared to land and you called in to ground? Will the new controller be expecting you to depart because you mistakenly called in on tower rather than ground?

I believe the onus is on the pilot to state his intentions when calling in. You intend to depart, then say so, you intend to taxi, then say so. You can't expect ATC to read your mind, especially if you or your student makes a mistake. Who is responsible when your graduated student uses your format expecting a taxi clearance after he forgot to switch frequencies and the tower responds with some transmission that sounds like a taxi clearance, but isn't. Then the student taxis into the path of a 737 headed for Cancun? Could you be held accountable for teaching improper radio communications to your students?

[Class 1 Instructor]

I see no mechanism on how not saying the word "takeoff" would cause an accident

How about asking the tower to confirm if you're "cleared to go", instead of "cleared for takeoff" and both they and other (maybe foreign) pilots not having a clue what you're talking about?

The AIM says that all transmissions should start with the call sign

Looking very carefully, I can't find it to say that. Do you have a part/paragraph reference in mind?

The " Cleared to Go" call is for when you are acknowledging the ATC call "ABC cleared for takeoff". Uncertainty about whether you are cleared for takeoff or not is a different situation and one that doesn't come up that often.

Your question got me thinking though and it is something I don't specifically address in training, but should. For the record if I am unsure of the status of my clearance then I would say "Confirm ABC is cleared for takeoff". In this case I think one should say the word takeoff, because we are not, as in the first case simply acknowledging a call which is fully understood, this is a case where uncertainty exists and so there must be absolutely no doubt what the issue is. Therefore the most unambiguous way would to to say "takeoff" in your transmission.

The AIM does not specifically say "put the call sign first" but every example they provide has the call sign in the front, therefore the implied direction is just that.

I think that you are never to old or experienced to learn something new. One of the things I like about reading Avcanada is it often makes me think about stuff I took for granted. On reflection your comment on the "cleared to go" is right, it is not the best way. Therefore I am now going to tell my students to acknowledge the call from ATC "ABC cleared for takeoff runway 18 " with the response "cleared for departure 18 ABC".

"Departure" is a ICAO recognized term, is unambiguous, and avoids you saying "takeoff".

For the call when you are ready for takeoff I still like "ABC 18 at Alpha, Ready". Of note I am in the habit of adding the taxiway I am at in addition to the runway because the field where I mostly fly has staggered taxiways on both sides of the main runway, so confirming which taxiway you are at reduces confusion, especially when there are several aircraft "Ready". On runways where there are only taxiways at each end then the runway number alone is all that is required.

The "Primacy" learning factor really applies to radio work as bad habits developed early are very hard to break. ( My current Alberta trained student still occasionally sticks in the stupid " conflicting traffic please advise" call despite my ruthless mocking of this silly practice).

My personal opinion is that the ready call that I have described above is the best most efficient call and should be taught to every pilot starting at the first ab initio lessons.

Still I want to emphasize that my opinion represents one data point and should be critically examined like any other advice on an anonymous bulletin board. I will acknowledge that this is not life or death stuff and so I do not wish to imply that someone who wants to say "ready for takeoff" is doing something "wrong" or "unsafe" simply that I think there is IMO a better way.

[Class 1 Instructor]

Okay, here's a scenario for Class I.

I am going to make an assumption here...You're ready for departure and call in your usual way, "ABC at Alpha Ready" What do you do when you land, exit the runway, complete your post landing checks, and switch to ground frequency? Do you say "ABC at Alpha Ready"? Because hey, the ground controller knows that you want to, right ?

I am going to say "ABC on Alpha, North ramp".

Ground is going to say " ABC taxi North ramp via Alpha, Charlie"

I am going to reply "North ramp via Alpha Charlie, ABC"

[photofly]

I am now going to tell my students to acknowledge the call from ATC "ABC cleared for takeoff runway 18 " with the response "cleared for departure 18 ABC".

"Departure" is a ICAO recognized term, is unambiguous, and avoids you saying "takeoff".

ICAO standard is to say "Cleared for takeoff". Departure is a recognized term, but why do you want to avoid the use of the word takeoff, even here, when confirming a takeoff clearance? That seems the one time it's entirely appropriate to use the word takeoff.

Also note that a departure clearance is not a takeoff clearance, so there's a possibility of confusion there if you say "cleared for departure".

[Class 1 Instructor]

I am now going to tell my students to acknowledge the call from ATC "ABC cleared for takeoff runway 18 " with the response "cleared for departure 18 ABC".

"Departure" is a ICAO recognized term, is unambiguous, and avoids you saying "takeoff".

ICAO standard is to say "Cleared for takeoff". Departure is a recognized term, but why do you want to avoid the use of the word takeoff, even here, when confirming a takeoff clearance? That seems the one time it's entirely appropriate to use the word takeoff.

Also note that a departure clearance is not a takeoff clearance, so there's a possibility of confusion there if you say "cleared for departure".

I have thought about this some more and I can not come up with a convincing response. I think in this scenario you are right and I am over thinking the issue.

[Trematode]

I always thought the "ready" call was redundant.

How about: "TOWER ABC HOLDING SHORT 25"

Of course you're ready, you're calling him aren't you?

[ahramin]

Class 1 Instructor, there's no wrong answer here and no one is going to flame you regardless of your answer but I'm curious to know if you have read ICAO Doc 9432 or perhaps Eurocontrol's All Clear guide, the CAA's CAP 413, or something similar? If you instruct at an FTU does the school have copies?

[Class 1 Instructor]

ahramim

Have you ever in Canadian airspace placed your call sign at the end of a transmission ?

[ahramin]

Yes.

[Class 1 Instructor]

Yes.

From para 5.9 of the COM section of the AIM.

Tower: FOXTROT VICTOR LIMA CHARLIE, CONFIRM YOU ARE AT FIVE THOUSAND.

Pilot: FOXTROT VICTOR LIMA CHARLIE, AFFIRMATIVE.

Here is a perfect example of what not to do. Standard phraseology is standard phraseology and it is what all pilots should be using. Standard phraseology does NOT mean disregard standard phraseology and instead invent your own phraseology. Making up your own personal way of speaking on the radio doesn't prevent accidents: it CAUSES them.

You had the opportunity to make the entirely appropriate point that thought should be put into what you say and on the radio and understanding what the regulations say and what is common practice is importance. Deviation from those should be done carefully and with a clear understanding of the potential confusion it could occur.

Instead of a constructive and measured comment you flamed me. What a great way to encourage civilized discourse on Avcanada. Well done Mr Moderator.

BTW don't bother replying as I have placed "Ahramin" on my ignore list, just like the other well known jerks on avcanada