Oh the sky keeps falling......

[DaveP]

Hi Cat,
I haven’t heard a thing about the “fair pay” thing affecting the pilots. I really and honestly don’t have much knowledge on the FA stuff only because I have enough things to focus on within the pilot group.

Cheers!

[Green Onions]

Fish if you want to compare apples to apples you are looking for the Q400 rate not the Dash 8 rate. Somebody might be able to find it, however there is a lot more to compare than just rates. You would have to look at total compensation. Pay, penion ( or no penion), stock options, weeks of vacation, benefits, schedule, per diems, passes, the list goes on. Fish you seem very focused on simply the pay rate.

[The Fish]

Fish if you want to compare apples to apples you are looking for the Q400 rate not the Dash 8 rate. Somebody might be able to find it, however there is a lot more to compare than just rates. You would have to look at total compensation. Pay, penion ( or no penion), stock options, weeks of vacation, benefits, schedule, per diems, passes, the list goes on. Fish you seem very focused on simply the pay rate.

yeah G.O.
Total compensation is the most important thing, I'm just looking for another piece of that puzzle. Days off perdiems and pension info is available online.

Thanks for the input.

Fish

[The Fish]

Fish just isn't getting it.

Do you understand "status pay" and how that rate is calculated??

[QKDH8]

Hi Fish,

I think the confusion is coming because there is no specific CRJ or DH8 or Q400 rate, only groups of rates.

Our contract (Section 10-9.01 for those that want to see) has 3 groups: "Small Body", "Narrow Body" and "Wide Body"

- Small Body is defined as max certified seating capacity to 90.
- Narrow Body is defined as single aisle, max certified seating capacity greater than 90.
- Wide Body is not defined (as it was never relevant) but one would assume twin aisle.

The CRJ 200/705, The DH8 1/3/Q4 are all certified under 90 seats, and as such are all defined as Small Body aircraft, having the same rate.

Essentially, if we got rid of all our Dash 8s, the pay rate would be the same. If we got rid of all our CRJs the rate would be the same. If we started to operate EMB 170s the rates would be the same. ATRs, the rates the same. But if we added say EMB190s (Max cert >90), they would be at the narrow body rate (Same as 757), and as such everyone would received a raise.

In summary, For all purposes the rates on the CRJ and the DH8 are the same, not because of status pay, but because they are grouped as Small Body, and so the "blended rate" would be blending two rates that are identical, coming out with a third identical number.

When the 757 were here, we were blending 125 Small Body, with 3 Narrow Body (6 airplanes, 1/2 year operation = 3 year round planes) to get a combined status pay rate. Since the exit of the 757s the pay rates have taken a small cut. (Offset by Cost Of Living Increase). Now we have only small body, so what you see as the status rates is in fact indicative of the DH8 rate, or the CRJ rate.

The actual numbers themselves are a little more complex, as there is some methodology used to calculate it. The rate given is for 16th year captain, and then they work backwards from that to arrive at a pay rate for each year of service.

For interest sake at the time of contact writing, the rates were:
Year 16 Capt, Small Body is 108.23/hr (As of July 2010)
Year 16 Capt, Narrow Body is 155/hr (As of July 2010)

More importantly, the current rates are below. These new pay rates still include some portion of the 757s, as the "blending" that occurred was an outlook of previous 6 months, and looking forward 6 months, that occurred in July of each year. Since 6 months prior to July 2012 we were still operating a few 757s, the number of airplanes / length of service was prorated and blended in to the rate. Bear in mind it wouldn't be the full amount of airframes, because they started to go back early spring, and were all gone April, with no intention of coming back. I think it was included in the formula as 2 757s. It'll be pretty close, but you can expect a straight CRJ/DH8 pay scale to be slightly less. (I would think in the ball park of $0.25-0.75/hr less when you strip out those 2 757s)

Pay Rates Effective July 1 2012
Year Captain First Officer
1 $78.25 $41.88
2 $80.21 $47.12
3 $82.22 $54.84
4 $84.28 $57.03
5 $86.39 $59.31
6 $88.55 $61.68
7 $90.76 $64.15
8 $93.03 $65.75
9 $95.36 $67.39
10 $97.74 $69.07
11 $100.18 $70.80
12 $102.68
13 $105.25
14 $107.88
15 $110.58
16 $113.34

So there you have it. You can pretty much fairly compare the above rates (- say 0.25-0.75 to be fair when you strip out the 757s) for our Q400s with SR, Porter and Encore.

Hope that helps!

[crj_705]

And for those that want to know...

We have no 1st year CA at these salaries, EVER!!! Unless they are hired off the street direct entry into a left seat. All CA are promoted from within (seniority) and your FO years of service is brought with you onto the CA scale. So, if you are a 7yr FO and you are assigned a vacancy in the latest bid you will now receive 7yr CA pay and yearly increases from there on.

This was one of the major issues that forced us into a strike situation a few years back!

[The Fish]

QKDH8,
That answers my question, Thank you!!

Fish

[jjj]

Teacher,

You seem to suggest that the decline in WAWCON in Canada for pilots coincides with the start-up of WS. Is that right?

[Fanblade]

Teacher,

You seem to suggest that the decline in WAWCON in Canada for pilots coincides with the start-up of WS. Is that right?

Not sure what Teacher meant, but no.

Deregulation is the culprit. The US deregulated about a decade before Canada. In many ways we are still a decade behind in evolution.

Increased competition is good for consumers. Forces inefficiencies out.

Unfortunately once that is done the only target left is WAWCON. Once one company has a cost advantage? They all have to match it to stay competitive. This is the slippery slope. Match it or parish.

Encore may appear to be the catalyst in this instance however AC was going to go there anyway due to the nature of the TB JV. Encore has just added to the cost pressure. It is no longer just Transboarder. It is now domestic as well.

Just look south of us to see the outcome.

[teacher]

Teacher,

You seem to suggest that the decline in WAWCON in Canada for pilots coincides with the start-up of WS. Is that right?

They didn't do it but they're continueing the trend minus a few percentage points. Like it was stated above, it's not only Encore. Like I mentioned in another thread, the worste part is these new low cost carriers were approved by other pilots pretty much giving a green light to lower the bar on WAWCON.

[jjj]

"... didn't do it but are continuing the trend."

Care to substantiate that little gem.

JJJ

[teacher]

Will Encore and Sky Regional match Jazz in WACON or pay less and work more?

A fast upgrade to a lower Captain payscale BTW does not count as making more money.

[jjj]

Will Encore and Sky Regional match Jazz in WACON or pay less and work more?

A fast upgrade to a lower Captain payscale BTW does not count as making more money.

Ok - so you answered a question with a question. Assuming the question is rhetorical, then I must say again that your opinion of Encore remains speculative as we don't know where all the components will land just yet.

I speculate that your sour opinion of Encore comes from a realization that it's frustrating to be handcuffed with the cushy feel-good life that a bit of seniority can offer in a pedestrian career that grasps to a tenuous CPA with a nasty older brother that treats you as the bane of existence rather than a component of success. (sorry for the run on sentence - it's late).

In an industry where people rarely get to take their experience laterally, a career as mentioned above is worth holding onto as fates are out of our control and moving to where the "grass is greener" is not without risk. The sour tone that is thinly veiled in you redundant posts stems from the prospect that pilots who are junior to you in this industry may eventually fare better at a place like Encore.

Just speculating.

Have a great weekend.

JJJ

[teacher]

All pilots junior or senior to me and those that won't even work at Jazz will fare worse if our industry WACON continues to degrade.

You are correct that I am speculating HOWEVER with the information that's been passed around and stated to be true. I hope I'm wrong for the sake of EVERYONE. Do I like my job? Of course, and I planned on making Jazz a career. So as you can imagine and have accuratly pointed out when a cheapo deapo operation is set up to compete with an established carrier that I work for and threatens my job and ability to support my family yes, it gets to me. And for what? For a chance to fly for WJ mainline? To line the pockets of WJ management? To offer Joe public more discounted air fares that haven't kept up with inflation in the last 30 years?

When we renegoiate our contract and are faced with pay freezes or cuts to keep up with the "new industry standard" who's fault will that be? Mine? ALPAs? New start ups offering to do the same job for less?

[anonymity]

lat·er·al (ltr-l)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or situated at or on the side.
2. Of or constituting a change within an organization or a hierarchy to a position at a similar level, as in salary or responsibility, to the one being left: made a lateral move within the company.
The reponsibility is the same, can you point out what isn't?
Teacher, I feel your pain, I too am, was, planning my career at Jazz. The only comfort I have in all of this, is they literally gave WJ management the tool to lower their own WAWCONs and their contract is up before ours. The carrot being dangled to attract some experience over there at lower standards, well unless WJ had orders for wide bodies, I wouldn't put too much into that carrot. In the near term, definite stagnation, without widebodies long term stagnation and downward pressure on wages etc..
Don't ask any hardcore Westjetter to admit what they've done, they're still in denial from 16 years ago, yes you lowered the bar, whether you admit it or not and you did it again with encore, whether you admit that or not!
BTW, some of the more grounded WJ pilots I have talked to, admit they were likely a pawn in a big CEO chess match.

[Mig29]

JJJ,

the more and more I read your posts, I realize that you are so much emotionally detached from the issue that is facing pilots in this industry, that you either are a former one (now in the office) or so close to your retirement that you don't care? Pardon me for making these assumptions, if you are not, then at least you sound like this to me....

In an industry where people rarely get to take their experience laterally, a career as mentioned above is worth holding onto as fates are out of our control and moving to where the "grass is greener" is not without risk. The sour tone that is thinly veiled in you redundant posts stems from the prospect that pilots who are junior to you in this industry may eventually fare better at a place like Encore.

....Pilots will eventually fare better at places like Encore. Really JJJ, really??!? How, by undercutting everyone in this industry by as much as 50% and then on top of it working MORE then their colleagues? Is that how? So that they maybe have a crack at the flow through at mainline to sit right seat for a loooong time before sliding left. WJ is a mature company, stacked with captains under 40 years old. How long does this new right seater has to wait before he upgrades?

At a company that is at it's peak domestic flying, so is now (rightly so) using smaller aircraft to maximize efficiency...not expand! Unless, they get a fleet of wide-bodies....what 10, 20 maybe?? Jazz had closer to 10 wide-bodies...didn't really make a heck of a difference for guys on seniority list...

Transat is following suit as well I hear, with their "important" announcement coming up soon. They will either announce new narrow type aircraft or press Canjet to become cheapest B737 operators. I mean, it's not like it hasn't been done before, right?

So, when we get these new "impressive" pay scales at Canjet, Sunwing, Rouge, Sky, Encore, Transat...how long before best WJ and AC loose their 'greener pastures' as you mention....

[cv990]

Jazz had closer to 10 wide-bodies...

Um.......... we did? I've been part of the Jazz/Air BC family since 1990.. not sure what wide body a/c we had.....

757 isn't a wide body......and they weren't ours.....

[FICU]

BTW, some of the more grounded WJ pilots I have talked to, admit they were likely a pawn in a big CEO chess match.

My experience as well... many are not happy about this at all.

This is what happens when employees become "owners". They no longer think of what's good for their jobs and professions and only become consumed with what's good for the value of the stock they hold as a big chunk of their earnings. Back at the start up Clive and the boys knew that making the employees owners would allow them much more freedom in shaping the company and that they would offer much less resistance to change, especially negative change to the employees.

Do you think that if the employees weren't owners Encore with it's lower WACON for pilots and base staff would have been so easily pushed through?

[jjj]

Teacher, I respect that reply - well said. BTW - the greener grass statement was generic and not meant as a description of WS.

Mig, I'm a line pilot only and retirement is theoretically 14 years away. If WS tanks or my vasectomy is botched then retirement can easily be moved back a fair bit.

I am detached from what junior pilots face. Honestly, that's because people starting these days have more to look forward to than when I started. In the years prior to WS I did everything I could to fight for the little guy. I stood up and fought more battles and risked getting fired in the name of good character than most have done in their entire careers.

Anonymity, if you still believe that WS lowered the bar 16 years ago then you are sorely mistaken. Nothing I say will convince you of that so - whatever. Don't ask me, just google the ACPA data on compensation competitors between WS 737 and AC A320.

This could be the end of good times at WS. That is a possibility. 20 years ago if I had speculated that one day there would be a hybrid Canadian/Air Canada livery - I would have been laughed out of the Flying Beaver.

Again, save the crucifixion until the variables play out. Waiting on a complete comp for Encore - hell waiting on what a schedule even looks like. Waiting on a mainline contract - it's up in May.

Who knows, I might end up on the Teacher/Mig band wagon. I think not, I hope not. Time will tell - sooner than later.

JJJ

[Mig29]

Jazz had closer to 10 wide-bodies...

Um.......... we did? I've been part of the Jazz/Air BC family since 1990.. not sure what wide body a/c we had.....

757 isn't a wide body......and they weren't ours.....

haha man, we pilots are so observant about fine details....I know someone was gonna burn me on that line....I meant long haul stuff, should've specified better. And I know they were not Jazz's a/c, just said Jazz had them in the fleet. Cheers

Again, save the crucifixion until the variables play out. Waiting on a complete comp for Encore - hell waiting on what a schedule even looks like. Waiting on a mainline contract - it's up in May.

Who knows, I might end up on the Teacher/Mig band wagon. I think not, I hope not. Time will tell - sooner than later.

JJJ

Fair enough JJJ, I respect your opinion.

And I would rather join in on your band wagon rather then you come here. Because if my prediction turns out to be true, we all lose.....I'd rather not for the sake of all of us!

Regards,