Encore WACON released and surprise, it sucks

[7thirtyseven]

You'd be supprised just how much this topic has been brought up. You think this thread was harsh? you should see our internal forum.

So your own management team didn't work with your association regarding the WAWCON, they just sprung the crappy starting wages on you guys and now there is blowback ? If that is the case then they had an agenda of how the regional would be set up long before you guys were all sold on the "concept".

Ha ha thats funny. Of course they had an "agenda". They are not idiots.
Ill let you in on a secret. Westjet has an overall "agenda" of making cash, and most of the Westjet pilots have a similar agenda.... This attitude we hope, will be shared by future Encore pilots. Having the flexibility to work some things out on the fly (Wacon, sched, lists etc) gives Encore the chance to build a base to make cash.
Its worked well for current WJA pilots, we are trying to set it up to work well for future encore pilots.

[anonymity]

So, year 1 for Captain 68/hr rising to 72 year 4, year 1 FO 38, rising to 40.33 year 4.
Then a Westjetter told me the other day the flow through will only bring years of service for upgrade at mainline, but you start a year 1 pay scale going from Encore to WJ, nice work guys, your doing a bang up job for this industry. I guess the silver lining is, it won't be much of a pay cut going from encore captain wages to WJ FO wages, at least that's something(sarcasm)

[onetreehill]

NOTHING is known for sure. Your source is full of shit.

[anonymity]

Well, then they shouldn't send out information packages for review prior to the interview, if the information is "shit"
Those wage numbers are from said package, the flow is not confirmed, but wouldn't surprise me. As for the source, the years of service for upgrade only, was "the reason for two seperate list" Hope to be proven wrong

[KAG]

So, year 1 for Captain 68/hr rising to 72 year 4, year 1 FO 38, rising to 40.33 year 4.
Then a Westjetter told me the other day the flow through will only bring years of service for upgrade at mainline, but you start a year 1 pay scale going from Encore to WJ, nice work guys, your doing a bang up job for this industry. I guess the silver lining is, it won't be much of a pay cut going from encore captain wages to WJ FO wages, at least that's something(sarcasm)

So years spent at encore counting towards your upgrade is nothing? In theory you could (according to your source) fly left seat at encore then jump basically into left seat on a 737 when your time comes...yeah that's horrible.

[anonymity]

You're right, it's an awesome deal, make less than WJ FO's make for 10-12 years, then.... why do I bother, the brainwashing is too strong, lamb to the slaughter, lamb to the slaughter.....

[KAG]

Brainwashing? That's rich. Lambs to the slaughter? That's a tad mellow dramatic don't you think. 10-12 years at encore and the entire aviation scene will have changed. Look what we were paying 12 years ago. It's been improving.
Personally I do think the pay scales are too low, and the annual raises are laughable.
I do think those that go will work hard, get paid more then expected (hard work) and hammer out their own contracts. Again it's a starting point.

Time spent at encore towards a Westjet upgrade is GOLD, but yet all you see is the negative.

Apply or not it's up to you. 400 or so people thought it wasn't so bad, ask them how it actually is rather then speculate how bad it might be.

Ps
I ran some math, if the OT trigger is 90 hours I'll wager you'll be right up to it. 90*12=$1080 credit hours a year (hard work) *$68/hr =73,440 + ESP (10%) = $80,784 + profit share (say $3500).
$84,284 for a direct entry Q 400 skipper, not great but not bad either.

[flyer 1492]

[quote="KAG"]
Time spent at encore towards a Westjet upgrade is GOLD, but yet all you see is the negative.

I have also heard that you will start at year 1 pay when you transition. If you spend 10-12 years at encore, half of it as an FO and then transition to WJ HOW much money have you lost to someone that was hired directly on to the '37? How about make it a level playing field for all the pilots, the WJPA had the chance.

[KAG]

First off if you spend 5-6 years as an FO at encore your a low Time pilot who wouldn't have been hired at WJ in the first place.
comparing FO encore wages to FO WJ wages isn't a good comparison as the upgrades will be fast and furious. Now left seat Encore VS FO WJ - you'll make more at WJ.
Like everything known discussed it's going to change anyway. Wages will go up, upgrades at WJ will take longer, some pilots will take the financial hit just to avoid commuting.
With socialized bidding and Flica While encore won't lead the pack $$$ wise, it will be a great place to work.

[Kosiw]

Does 90 credit hrs/month = 90 flying hrs/month ? Cause 90 flying hrs / month after month = Burn Out after a while

Can someone explain how the credit system would work at WJE ?

[flyer 1492]

There is no credit system, it is all hard time. D/H time doesn't count.

[KAG]

Does 90 credit hrs/month = 90 flying hrs/month ? Cause 90 flying hrs / month after month = Burn Out after a while

Can someone explain how the credit system would work at WJE ?

It's main cabin door closed and park break off, to main door open. At WJ say we average around 80 hours a month, were actually doing around 68-70 hard time to get that. The more segments you do (and Encore will do more) it's cuts down the hard time.

Flyer 1492
I looked up or FO hourly bands, and first year is $56.24/HR, second year is $60.95/HR, Third year is $81.01/HR maxing out at year 8 at $101.01/HR.

Food for thought.

[countryhick]

Kag,

Curious, any talk of min credit/day at encore?

[Paia]

I thought brake off to brake on was hard time. Wouldn't more segments mean more hard time not less as you work least at cruise?... But flying a 737 must be way harder then flying a Q400 and it must be silly to think otherwise.

[flyer 1492]

Kag,

Your numbers don't add up. You say you work 80 hours but actually fly 68-70. We all know you get paid by flying hours not credit hours, so where do the extra 10-12 hours come from. Going by the wage numbers you posted, a year three captain at WJE tranistioning over to the '37 would lose money 70.75 @ WJE vs 56.24 @WJ.

[KAG]

We get paid credit time, of which 68 hours hard time (flight time). We have no min daily credit. The rest is odds and ends. So no, the more segments you do, the more odds N ends you accumulate the less efficient in terms of actual flying time.

[Kosiw]

KAG, all the info you supply is very much appreciated, since only piecemeal info is dribbling out day after day.

This isn't a slag, but I cannot figure out, how the #2 airline in Canada ( with about a year since the approval vote was taken ), not have a complete wawcon package put together, as its been mentioned on this site, parts might be done "on the fly", wages structure might change (first 80 now maybe 90% industry standard). Unless those of you in the know are with holding the complete package, it seems a bit "bush", that many important issues are not yet nailed down. I guess many of those 400 or so applicants might just be "kicking the tires" to find out more ?

[KAG]

I'd guess it's more a case of last minute tweaks, IE the 2-list solution.
I'm not in the know; I can read the same as you but have the advantage of applying some internal experience in things like pay and scheduling.
What people (myself included) get caught up in is the hourly rate and days off. Really with ESP, profit share and the ability to trade your schedule around it’s really hard to quantify that unless you've lived it.

CountryHick
Min credit? Not sure but I doubt it. It adds a layer of inefficiency that we don’t need (same applies to WJ).

PAIA, your probably correct in your definition but there are still long taxi's, deice, irops, and that all gets factored into the credit built into the pairing. We do have natural block growth same as anyone else.
As for your last comment, your just being an ass.

[Paia]

Sorry KAG. I am just disappointed that there is a separate list, separate pay scale and separate ideas of working conditions. How great would this have been for everyone if this meant a bunch of hiring at WJ, bidding a lifestyle (ie FO to captain on Q4), same working conditions, same pay scale. I know it wouldn't make sense to use current pay scale so it would mean pay cuts depending on how many planes brought in etc. but think of all the benefits. Then if/when wide bodies are added to the fleet, your pay adjusts accordingly again. Those who prefer long haul bid long haul and those who enjoy regional bid that. WJ would still be profitable and it would only make the pilot group stronger. Separating Q400 guys from 737 guys with such a wide margin just doesn't make sense as both jobs are challenging and deserve to be properly compensated.

[pilotidentity]

KAG,

Thanks for your honest reply. It makes sense that WJ pilots don't back this 100 percent.

[Donald]

I still think it's a joke that you guys keep on saying that Encore new hires have to "work hard to build the brand" and that Encore is a "start-up" like WJ was 16 yrs ago.

The Westjet brand is already well established.

Customers....sorry, "guests" will be purchasing tickets on Wesjet, not Encore, therefore there is no Encore brand. Just like there is no Jazz brand, people just buy tickets on AC and assume the dash 8 is a small AC plane.

Bottom line is WJ employees care about one thing only, the bottom line and how it affects the stock price. Whatever the net result for anybody else, oh well.

Good luck on mainline contract negotiation.

[Mig29]

I still think it's a joke that you guys keep on saying that Encore new hires have to "work hard to build the brand" and that Encore is a "start-up" like WJ was 16 yrs ago.

I know man, as if this Regional flying operation is a piece of cake, and as if it only took few months for a fresh CPL to get 500hrs and then he's going right seat Q400! Or as if that DEC coming in only took a year or two doing some "easy" Navajo bush work and now he just has to "work hard" for few more years to make an impression on WJ hiring board that he's worthy of the job with the big boys???? Right, I would like to look at the demographics of the guys interviewing at Encore.

I remember when places like GGN/CMA wouldn't take guys below 2,500hrs, even more for DEC....What is Encore getting applicants now for? These are not 22 year old guys I bet, but mature individuals who have done their share of "paying dues" and living in parent's basements anymore...why pay dues again at a Regional 705 airline?? By paying them like this, some will probably reconsider that basement option again

WJ needs a regional aircraft - that is a given. It's the only way for them to be efficient. But they should've made it as part of their company, tweak the pay scales (status pay) and let anyone inside bid for it ahead of guys off the street. Then the rest go behind them in seniority terms and life would be good.....

[cjet]

Hi Guys,

Just to clairify what Kag is saying. WJ pilots are scheduled to fly 80hrs a month, 960 hrs a year but when you factor in vacation we average around 70 hrs ass in seat per month.

CJET

[winston]

$84,000 minus what you have to put aside for your "pension". Benefits?? not sure how they work at WJ mainline or will at Encore. And isn't the ESP at Encore going to be less than Mainline?

You say direct entry to Mainline is GOLD - agreed as WJ 737 interviews are a tough egg to crack. But when Q400's start replacing '37 routes and the average age of a 737 skipper being what, 40? I just don't see a steady stream of flow through to mainline.

To each his own definitely but I just get a little tired of ice being sold to Eskimos.

One man's opinion, and only based the ever so accurate Av Canada source, but that's the way I'm seeing it. I have no doubt they'll be 400 plus resumes and Encore will be successful, but at what cost to those that occupy the pointy end and all those that follow at Encore, or elsewhere.

If I was at WJ already I'd be laughing as Encore is just going to making me more money. If I was just hired at Encore, not so much.

W

[Inverted2]

So, year 1 for Captain 68/hr rising to 72 year 4, year 1 FO 38, rising to 40.33 year 4.
Then a Westjetter told me the other day the flow through will only bring years of service for upgrade at mainline, but you start a year 1 pay scale going from Encore to WJ, nice work guys, your doing a bang up job for this industry. I guess the silver lining is, it won't be much of a pay cut going from encore captain wages to WJ FO wages, at least that's something(sarcasm)

I don't think they'll be paying that low. I'll wait till I see an official payscale before I judge, but they won't be getting guys with much experience at those wages.