TC removed my CPL from license booklet

[Benjamin.H]

Here's a portion of an email I send to TC. Let me know if you've had the same problem or have any thoughts.

I am a holder of Commercial and Multi Engine licenses. When I was issued the new license booklet 3 years ago, I noticed that my commercial license was not in the booklet. There was only a private license. When I spoke to the license office in Vancouver, they said that the medical form filled out by the doctor was for a Cat 3 medical, and therefore Private license.

I explained that yes, I did a Cat 3 medical, but that I am a commercial license holder, regardless of which medical I currently hold. The medical merely allows me to exercise the privileges of the license. The office told me that if I want the Commercial license to be shown in the booklet, I need to do the Cat 1 Medical.

If I decided to start working as a pilot, I would have to do a Cat 1 medical, which is normal, but then I would have to wait for TC to mail me the sticker showing that I have a Commercial license. This would delay my employment considerably. If I had the commercial license in the booklet already, I would be able to work as a pilot as soon as my license booklet had been stamped by the aviation doctor.

The licensing office in Vancouver was helpful, but told me they were unable to issue me the sticker for my commercial license unless I did a Cat 1 Medical. The key point here is that I don't need to hold a Cat 1 medical to have a commercial license. A commercial license never expires.

[Cat Driver]

Benjamin:

Do not waste anymore energy with this issue.

Go and get the cat1 medical.

Or just be satisfied with the PPL.

[tired of the ground]

You've run into the wonderful world of red tape and government employees. They have all the cards and all the cash. You have....... Nothing.

Easiest thing to do is get a cat 1 medical. $100ish and you're problems go away. You do need one to work so it's not that big a deal. Otherwise, you're sending emails, calling people, banging your head against the wall and watching yourself age. At the end of the day nobody at transport cares what licence you have or should have. They want to do the least amount of work possible before the get to go home at 4:30 (or 4:00). If you had made a stink about it when you originally got your booklet, you had a leg to stand on. You are NEVER going to get transport to issue you a commercial licence with a cat 3 medical.

How much is your time worth? You can go on a red tape crusade and spend the next 6 months fighting the government or pay the fee, get the medical and then go bitch about the government to your buddies over a beer.

[200hr Wonder]

Benjamin.H when is your Cat 3 due? Just do a Cat 1, after the 1st day of the 13th month (Or 1st day of 7th month depending on age) it reverts to Cat 3 problem solved.

[Kilo-Kilo]

My doctor only issues cat 1 no-matter what license you hold. It reverts to cat 3 automatically when expiry occurs.
I pay about $115.00 which is a buck less than my Class 1 driver's license medical I did last week.

[gustind]

Category 1 medicals don't just change to Cat 3 medicals! Your privileges change on the 13th month (or 7th), not the category!

[PilotDAR]

Yeah.....

I booked my medical for the cat 1 for the same day to write my commercial ground school exam. With the passed cat 1 ink literally still wet on the stamp in my booklet, I went across the airport to write the exam, which I had booked. Everything was ready for me, and I was the only person writing.

Your papers please....

I presented my booklet in support of meeting the requirement to have a cat 1 medical to write the exam. It was refused. I had evidence of the examination, I did not have the cat 1 medical yet. TC issues that, not the examining doctor. Can you say petty bureaucracy? Nothing would convince them to let me write. I howled (and did find the phrase, which went spoken aloud, gets you asked to leave the office. I realized that writing would be pointless anyway that day, as I was now too stressed. The problem was my lack of the written delayed my ride, and that of another candidate who was booked at the same time for the examiner to come.

I challenged TC on this. It was explained that my instructor should never have allowed me to start training without the cat 1. Why, I asked? I'm legal to take training on a cat 3, with a valid PPL. "Yes you are, but that's not the way you're supposed to do it." - Yeah, but I'm legal. Why would I pay for a cat 1 medical, which will expire during the term of my training anyway, when I can train on the at 3 I have, at no additional cost? Being the government, being economical has nothing to do with it!

Logic, and the actual facts of the regulations did not matter. I finished the whole thing weeks later, totally dissatisfied with the treatment from TC. Fortunately, the ride went so well, it kinda made up for the very grumpy treatment from TC. It's kinda refreshing to have the examiner turn to you after 15 minutes of flying, and say "we're just up here wasting gas, aren't we?".

But, as said, go get the cat 1 medical, it's not a big deal, and the facts and reality of the regulations will get you nowhere - ask me how I know!

[Panama Jack]

I have always thought it silly that Transport Canada, unlike the FAA, requires you to have a valid medical for the issuance of all licenses and ratings.

For example, why should you be required to have a valid medical to do a check-ride in a simulator?

[Shiny Side Up]

It was explained that my instructor should never have allowed me to start training without the cat 1. Why, I asked? I'm legal to take training on a cat 3, with a valid PPL. "Yes you are, but that's not the way you're supposed to do it." - Yeah, but I'm legal. Why would I pay for a cat 1 medical, which will expire during the term of my training anyway, when I can train on the at 3 I have, at no additional cost? Being the government, being economical has nothing to do with it!

As an instructor I don't let students train for their CPLs without having their Cat 1 in place. While I've heard the argument a thousand times of the horrendous extra cost (to which I answer get used to it, what do you think its going to be like when you start working as a pilot?), it would be far more derelict of me to let the student expend thousands of dollars in training, and then discover they have a medical problem precluding them from getting a CPL. To date I can remember at least 4 students who haven't been able to get past it, dream shattering to be sure, but at least they didn't start spending the money. Personally I would recommend doing the Cat 1 if you're just starting on your PPL and have a possible thought of doing your CPL down the road. Better to find out sooner than later, let it expire than if you want, easier to get back when you need it then.

In short being economical has everything to do with it, but it just doesn't seem so when one has to fork out a hundred or so bucks for something you don't get to exercise right now. Be nice if people were a bit more farsighted.

[Meatservo]

I was going to say exactly what "cat Driver" said. Just get a Cat.1 medical. Problem solved. Stop being silly. Life is too short for this nonsense.

[photofly]

I booked my medical for the cat 1 for the same day to write my commercial ground school exam. With the passed cat 1 ink literally still wet on the stamp in my booklet, I went across the airport to write the exam, which I had booked.

Is there really such a thing as a "Passed Cat 1" stamp? When I upgraded from Cat 3 to Cat 1, I got the usual renewal stamp on the Cat 3 page - just the AME's details, no category mentioned. There was nothing at all to suggest I'd been recommended for a Cat 1. Nothing to show until the sticker turned up in the post.

[Benjamin.H]

Of course the easy way out is to just go get my Cat 1, which I'll do in the end. I'm far from being stressed out and banging my head against the wall, but I figured I should at least put a little effort in to improve the system, be "silly" as Meatservo put it . Trying to improve TC is a great hobby, you'll never run out of things to do...

[KK7]

The way I understand it, Transport Canada's medical division (whatever they are called), are the ones that approve your medical. The doctor does the examination, fills in the boxes, and has guidelines to follow if you pass or fail your medical.

If you already have a medical of the same category, the doctor can stamp the box under the sticker showing a medical to indicate it is renewed. However, Transport Canada still has to review the form and approve it. If it is approved, you don't hear anything back. If it is not approved, they will contact you using all the contact details you left on the form.

If you have a category 3 medical, and wish to get a category 1 medical, the doctor will do the examination, fill the boxes on the form, and send it in. The doctor will stamp your booklet under the category 3 medical which renews your category 3. There will be no proof in your booklet that it is a category 1. As this is a new category 1 medical, Transport will do the approval on the initial and send you a new sticker when it is approved. Until then, you're stuck with the category 3 medical, even if you once held a category 1 sometime in the past.

That means that if you wanted to suddenly go start working as a pilot when you have a category 3 medical in your licence booklet, even if it showed you had a CPL an employer wouldn't find your medical as a valid category 1 just being stamped by the doctor. You'd have to wait for the sticker.

However, my experience with Transport Canada has been pretty good if you politely explain to them the need to expedite the process. They can fax you and/or an employer a temporary medical certificate and/or licence as required. But I emphasize politely, because like it or not Transport has a bureaucratic process to follow. Yes the clerk can rummage through the files, find your form and process it right away. However I've heard of people being belligerent or rude about it, then they come off as an unappreciative a$$ that nobody wants to do a favour for. At the end of the day, the clerks who process this stuff are just doing their job.

[5400AirportRdSouth]

For those who drive commercially as well as fly, most provincial motor vehicle departments will accept the report that your CAME submits for your Cat 1 as acceptable for a drivers medical, right up to class 1.

Its not something the clerks deal with on a regular basis, so you'll probably get told "no" at first, but call provincial HQ and talk to someone senior, you can usually fax them the report and they'll annotate your file online to reflect a valid medical. Saves having to do two a year, but usually takes a few phone calls...

Not the stamp in your booklet, but the actual report from the doctor. I usually just ask my CAME for a photocopy before I leave his office and when DMV wants me to renew my medical, I fax it over. Voila.

The exam must have taken place with the last X number of months though. I've seen as short as 90 days and as long as 6 months validity, so each province must have their own rules...

[ragbagflyer]

For those who drive commercially as well as fly, most provincial motor vehicle departments will accept the report that your CAME submits for your Cat 1 as acceptable for a drivers medical, right up to class 1.

Its not something the clerks deal with on a regular basis, so you'll probably get told "no" at first, but call provincial HQ and talk to someone senior, you can usually fax them the report and they'll annotate your file online to reflect a valid medical. Saves having to do two a year, but usually takes a few phone calls...

Not the stamp in your booklet, but the actual report from the doctor. I usually just ask my CAME for a photocopy before I leave his office and when DMV wants me to renew my medical, I fax it over. Voila.

The exam must have taken place with the last X number of months though. I've seen as short as 90 days and as long as 6 months validity, so each province must have their own rules...

Good to know. I've always just politely asked the Doctor to fill out the driver's licence medical form at the same time. They've always waived the form fee. There's also a Doctor in Whitehorse that only charges for one medical per year for pilots over 40 as a courtesy.

[Capt. Underpants]

Yeah.....

I booked my medical for the cat 1 for the same day to write my commercial ground school exam. With the passed cat 1 ink literally still wet on the stamp in my booklet, I went across the airport to write the exam, which I had booked. Everything was ready for me, and I was the only person writing.

Your papers please....

I presented my booklet in support of meeting the requirement to have a cat 1 medical to write the exam. It was refused. I had evidence of the examination, I did not have the cat 1 medical yet. TC issues that, not the examining doctor. Can you say petty bureaucracy? Nothing would convince them to let me write. I howled (and did find the phrase, which went spoken aloud, gets you asked to leave the office. I realized that writing would be pointless anyway that day, as I was now too stressed. The problem was my lack of the written delayed my ride, and that of another candidate who was booked at the same time for the examiner to come.

I challenged TC on this. It was explained that my instructor should never have allowed me to start training without the cat 1. Why, I asked? I'm legal to take training on a cat 3, with a valid PPL. "Yes you are, but that's not the way you're supposed to do it." - Yeah, but I'm legal. Why would I pay for a cat 1 medical, which will expire during the term of my training anyway, when I can train on the at 3 I have, at no additional cost? Being the government, being economical has nothing to do with it!

Logic, and the actual facts of the regulations did not matter. I finished the whole thing weeks later, totally dissatisfied with the treatment from TC. Fortunately, the ride went so well, it kinda made up for the very grumpy treatment from TC. It's kinda refreshing to have the examiner turn to you after 15 minutes of flying, and say "we're just up here wasting gas, aren't we?".

One should never go on a rant without knowledge and facts to support said rant. Here are the facts that refute your assertions.

Every Canadian written exam for pilots includes a medical prerequisite for admission to the examination. For the CPL, the medical prerequisite is a Category 1 medical. An initial or upgraded medical is not issued by your doctor, it is issued by Transport Canada's aviation medicine division after they have reviewed the doctor's report to determine if you have met the conditions of issuance. Most aviation doctors have the ability to administer an ECG but none of them are licensed cardiologists who can read the results to the required standard, and that is just one example of what TC does to confirm your eligibility - they have a cardiologist review the ECG. So, you did not walk out of the doctor's office with a fresh Cat 1 medical, you walked out with a renewed Cat 3. Therefore you did not meet the prerequisite for writing the exam. Those are the regulations and facts, and they do matter. If you hope to have a successful career in aviation, I suggest you get used to it.

Also, why anyone would spend a plug nickel on training without confirming that they meet the medical requirements is beyond me. Must be nice to have money to burn.

[Doc]

What's "beyond me"is why anybody would call themselves "Capt. Underpants"??

[Pratt X 3]

Good book.

[Capt. Underpants]

What's "beyond me"is why anybody would call themselves "Capt. Underpants"??

What can I say, my kids loved that book.

[Capt. Underpants]

I have always thought it silly that Transport Canada, unlike the FAA, requires you to have a valid medical for the issuance of all licenses and ratings.

For example, why should you be required to have a valid medical to do a check-ride in a simulator?

One of the conditions of issuance for a licence is a valid medical upon application. The reason you need a valid medical for a check ride in a simulator is because you must be capable of meeting all of the conditions of issuance on the day of the test, even a recurrent one. A check ride in a simulator replaces all (or part) of an airborne check ride. Would you be able to do an airborne check ride without a valid medical? Of course not. Same thing.

[Joe Blow Schmo]

I have always thought it silly that Transport Canada, unlike the FAA, requires you to have a valid medical for the issuance of all licenses and ratings.

For example, why should you be required to have a valid medical to do a check-ride in a simulator?

One of the conditions of issuance for a licence is a valid medical upon application. The reason you need a valid medical for a check ride in a simulator is because you must be capable of meeting all of the conditions of issuance on the day of the test, even a recurrent one. A check ride in a simulator replaces all (or part) of an airborne check ride. Would you be able to do an airborne check ride without a valid medical? Of course not. Same thing.

Back to the OP. Trading your old license in for the new booklet is not the issuance of a new license. It is merely a new format. If you have a CPL you should get a CPL back with no questions asked. As I work overseas I haven't bothered to get the new Canadian license yet, but a colleague who did so recently was only given a CPL instead of his ATPL because he didn't have a valid instrument rating on his Canadian license. You cannot exercise the privileges of an ATPL without a valid instrument rating, but that doesn't meant you can't have a piece of paper with "ATPL" written on it. Before the new format, he (and I) went for years carrying around a piece of paper that said "ATPL" without a valid (Canadian) instrument rating.

[photofly]

It's well known that TC downgrade ATPLs to CPLs if you don't have a valid GP1 IR at the time they reprint your licence sticker. That catches people who do their PPC in something with only one engine and get their IR renewed in GP3 only.

You may be able to carry a piece of paper with ATPL on it without the GP1, but TC definitely won't print one for you.

[Cat Driver]

It's well known that TC downgrade ATPLs to CPLs if you don't have a valid GP1 IR at the time they reprint your licence sticker.

Really?

Are you sure of that........?

You may be able to carry a piece of paper with ATPL on it without the GP1, but TC definitely won't print one for you.

Really?

Are you sure of that?

[photofly]

Am I sure? I heard it from a reputable source:
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 61#p635587

Doesn't look like a new thing either:
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=904

You actually contributed to the thread from 2004, Cat. Had you forgotten?

[Cat Driver]

Well for sure I did contribute to a thread in 2004, however reading what you pasted I see nothing that relates to the subject we are discussing.

One thing I can prove is TCCA does issue the new format of the license you held and the new format is the same license you held before they came up with that new abortion.

I did not hold a valid Canadian group one instrument rating when they sent me the new abortion but and it has both my Canadian licenses in the same document.

ATPL fixed wing license and Commercial helicopter License. The only difference is the number.

They were AA38841 and Ch38841 the new abortion is " File number 38841 " .

The reason I did not hold a valid Canadian instrument rating at the time was I was not flying in Canada and my licenses were issued in other countries.

Oh...by the way seeing the aircraft were not Canadian registered was another reason I had no need for the Canadian instrument rating.