"Taxi only" flight

[photofly]

It's not a great definition, for sure. A flight lasts from the beginning of the flight time until the end of the flight time. So as long as there's some flight time, there's a flight. Even if there's no flying. Maybe.

[cncpc]

cncpc,

What CAR specifically says it has to be in the journey log to be in your personal log. For some reason I can't find that written anywhere!

Example, you taxi out to the run up area, thinking you are going to beat an approaching rain shower, but the run up takes a bit longer, gust front comes along with the shower and wind gets beyond what you think is safe to take off, so you taxi back in. I taxied for the purpose of taking off, that fact the I didn't actually take of is irrelevant. It is a 0.2, taxi time. No journey log entry required, but nothing wrong with putting that 0.2 in your log as "flight time" at all.

Again, show me the CAR that says there specifically has to be an associated entry in a journey log and I will take your side of the argument.

Skyhunter,

You have to log all flights in the journey log. As someone pointed out above, you have to make a log entry if you start up and find a snag and enter it. Obviously.

The system doesn't work if there isn't a record of your flight to corroborate. In Canada, in the UK and Ireland, at least that i know of, and I expect in Australia and New Zealand, probably South Africa, the go to place to check whether a pilot log book is falsified is the journey log book. The Yanks don't have journey log books, at least they didn't when I rented down there. Perhaps the commercial ships do. But here, the check back is to the journey log book.

Which isn't always ideal. You only have to keep a journey log for 2 years after you switch to another one. The tech logs don't list the pilots usually, unless its a test flight.

If you claim a flight in a Canadian aircraft, it follows at law that somebody made an entry in a journey log book. If they didn't, either they broke a reg, or the flight didn't take place.

[cncpc]

It's not a great definition, for sure. A flight lasts from the beginning of the flight time until the end of the flight time. So as long as there's some flight time, there's a flight. Even if there's no flying. Maybe.

No, that's not what it says. It doesn't say till the end of the flight time. It says at the end of the flight. There isn't a flight unless the aircraft leaves the ground.

[Skyhunter]

cncpc,

There still is no CAR saying there has to be an entry, period. I would log it, if I needed the time and be well within law. It was exactly the same in the military.

Unlike some of the others on here, I don't think your an idiot though, still respect you, just unequivocally think you are wrong here.

[photofly]

There isn't a flight unless the aircraft leaves the ground.

That would be a natural definition of "flight". But then flight time wouldn't begin until the aircraft leaves the ground. Since "flight time" explicitly does begin before the aircraft leaves the ground I don't think the natural definition of "flight" is applicable. Since the "flight time" starts on the ground at the start of taxiing, it suggests that the "flight" starts on the ground, when the "flight time" starts, i.e. at the start of taxiing too. If the flight starts then, it doesn't suddenly cancel itself if there's no takeoff (as long as there was an intention to takeoff, at the time the taxiing started. If there was no intention to fly then the flight time wouldn't start, and so nor would the flight.) And then the flight ends, at the end of the flight. No actual flight necessary.

You only have to keep a journey log for 2 years after you switch to another one.

12 months, only I think: 605.93(4).

[cncpc]

cncpc,

There still is no CAR saying there has to be an entry, period. I would log it, if I needed the time and be well within law. It was exactly the same in the military.

Unlike some of the others on here, I don't think your an idiot though, still respect you, just unequivocally think you are wrong here.

Sure, no problem. LOL.

I'm not sure what you think I'm wrong about though. I've only said I'm fairly sure you can't log flight time if you don't make a flight. If I'm wrong on that, flying training is going to get a lot cheaper.

Where Cat has sidetracked us is in claiming that a pilot's log book is a place where you make all records of flight training, not just flights. That's what a personal training record is, at least in private and commercial training. I understand he is doing stuff other than that. I suppose you could write the sequel to Debbie Does Dallas in your log book, as long as you don't write things in the flight time columns and sum them up at the bottom of the page.

[photofly]

The system doesn't work if there isn't a record of your flight to corroborate.

If TC is concerned to make "the system" work they should put it in the regulations: "all flights entered in a pilot's log must match a record in the journey log of the applicable aircraft."

I don't see that pilots should be expected to second-guess and obey a strange undocumented "system". The CARs are quite mysterious enough on their own.

[cncpc]

There isn't a flight unless the aircraft leaves the ground.

That would be a natural definition of "flight". But then flight time wouldn't begin until the aircraft leaves the ground. Since "flight time" explicitly does begin before the aircraft leaves the ground I don't think the natural definition of "flight" is applicable. Since the "flight time" starts on the ground at the start of taxiing, it suggests that the "flight" starts on the ground, when the "flight time" starts, i.e. at the start of taxiing too. If the flight starts then, it doesn't suddenly cancel itself if there's no takeoff (as long as there was an intention to takeoff, at the time the taxiing started. If there was no intention to fly then the flight time wouldn't start, and so nor would the flight.) And then the flight ends, at the end of the flight. No actual flight necessary.

You only have to keep a journey log for 2 years after you switch to another one.

12 months, only I think: 605.93(4).

Yep, could be 12 months.

The log check is most likely to happen when applying for a licence.

It's up to Transport Canada to say what flight time is. There is a reason they differentiate between air time and flight time and it has to do with the maintenance requirements that really only come into play when the engine and airframe stresses really begin with full power and flight stresses begin. Tech logs, for instance, only deal with air time. Flight time is an add on to reflect the role of the pilot on the ground beginning and ending a flight.

I'm fairly sure, but not certain, that Transport is going to take the view that you have to make a flight. This "intention to fly" business has every potential of turning into a gong show. "Yes, it did take me .5 to do my runup as I had plug fouling, and then there were 15 aircraft in front of me waiting to go off 12 at ZBB and when I got there, my wife phoned and said she had gone into labor and so I had to backtrack 07 all the way back to the ramp, and just as I got there I realized I didn't have a wife, and wasn't expecting a baby, and it must have been a wrong number, but by then the next booking was standing there staring at me and I shut down. Had to log it as they charge on the Hobbs."

I think choppers only have .1 allowed for air time. Could be wrong though.

[cncpc]

The system doesn't work if there isn't a record of your flight to corroborate.

If TC is concerned to make "the system" work they should put it in the regulations: "all flights entered in a pilot's log must match a record in the journey log of the applicable aircraft."

I don't see that pilots should be expected to second-guess and obey a strange undocumented "system". The CARs are quite mysterious enough on their own.

They are going to just say, "What part of "...at the end of the flight" is confusing you?

There would be problems for verification. Logs may only survive a year after they are full. Granted, it can take a few years to fill one up. If the time is in the US, there are no logs.

[beaverbob]

Remember all the taxi time we did and charged for when log buying out here on the west coast Bob?

I sure do Cat. I did just that as recently as 5 years ago, out of Campbell River.
Bob










edited because my computer can't spell.

[Cat Driver]

I said I was finished with this but it seems like there is still some questions here that need to be asked.

I have a student who I want to teach how to fly a tailwheel airplane and I decide he/she needs training on the ground first, so we go out to the runway and proceed to do high speed rejected take offs.

At the end of a half hour of this practice I notice the student is to tense to learn anymore during that lesson so we taxi back to the ramp.

But unfortuntely while parking the airplane runs into another airplane and badly damage both airplanes.

Bearing in mind we did not actually fly but did wreck two airplanes as far as logging the time goes in the aircraft logs there is no need because there was no flight....is that correct?

[beaverbob]

How would you record the students taxi training if you could not put it in a log book?
Of course you can,may or whatever.
Bob

[photofly]

They are going to just say, "What part of "...at the end of the flight" is confusing you?

I don't feel confused about what "at the end of the flight" means. Nor do you. Unfortunately our interpretations don't match.

If TC wants pilots to ensure verification, they should make it explicit in the CARs. Otherwise they'll have to take their chances.

[cncpc]

I said I was finished with this but it seems like there is still some questions here that need to be asked.

I have a student who I want to teach how to fly a tailwheel airplane and I decide he/she needs training on the ground first, so we go out to the runway and proceed to do high speed rejected take offs.

At the end of a half hour of this practice I notice the student is to tense to learn anymore during that lesson so we taxi back to the ramp.

But unfortuntely while parking the airplane runs into another airplane and badly damage both airplanes.

Bearing in mind we did not actually fly but did wreck two airplanes as far as logging the time goes in the aircraft logs there is no need because there was no flight....is that correct?

Yes, that is correct.

[photofly]

Why is it necessary to have a log entry for a flight if you trash an aircraft on the ground? I don't read that in the CARs.

And if it is required, what's wrong with making the entry after you've trashed the aircraft? After the flight is when you'd make the log entry regardless.

[cncpc]

Do we have polls here? We need one about what folks think Transport is going to say about this.

[photofly]

I emailed them on Friday when I posted the thread.

The last CARs query I sent through took nine months to get an answer. I did get one though.

[Lurch]

Bearing in mind we did not actually fly but did wreck two airplanes as far as logging the time goes in the aircraft logs there is no need because there was no flight....is that correct?

I'm going with False, it goes into the Journey log but no Airtime is added to the aircraft. You would have to make an entry in the defects/snags column.

Not quite the same example but this was a enforceable action from TC. Select flaps, breaker pops, reset it, everything works normally. run the flaps multiple times never blow the breaker again. upon returning to base in passing it's mentioned to AME, they take it on themselves to look into it. They replace the motor, TC find the maintenance entry but no corresponding snag so they fine the PIC. (PS it wasn't me)

Now I taxi out and find the flaps won't cycle so I taxi back, no flight so no entry, where do I snag the flaps? If I don't TC will fine me.

You make an entry just like any other flight but don't fill in the Airtimes.

Edited to add. If TC finds a maintenance entry without a corresponding snag they are going to fine you. Trust me I have seen it, once again it wasn't me. You need to make an entry in the JL if the flight doesn't go due to a mechanical failure.

Lurch

[Lurch]

Everybody is confusing Journey Log, Personal log, Flight Time, Air Time, and Flight Training. these are all different things.

Nobody, even TC is going to argue the importance of "Flight Training". Cats example of Tail wheel training is a perfect one, I do the same Ground work on Multi's. This is very important experience for students but it is not "Flight Time", but there is NOTHING in the CARs stating I can't put this in my log book but this time does NOT count towards a higher licence.

You can log whatever you want and I'm willing to bet TC will most likely never catch it, but one day they might just be very bored and compare your personal log book to the airplanes Journey Log and if they see a flight in your personal logbook that isn't in the JL or that the flight never left the ground I can almost guarantee they will not allow it to be counted towards your licence.

Now nobody so far who has posted, to my knowledge, works for TC, so all our opinions are worth exactly the same, nothing.

One final thing, is 0.2 really that important to you to risk it? I'm more then willing to bet Cat can't even tell you his time to the closest 1000 hours little all to the decimal point, and I bet there are a lot of other pilots on here that can say the same thing.

Lurch

[cncpc]

Everybody is confusing Journey Log, Personal log, Flight Time, Air Time, and Flight Training. these are all different things.

Nobody, even TC is going to argue the importance of "Flight Training". Cats example of Tail wheel training is a perfect one, I do the same Ground work on Multi's. This is very important experience for students but it is not "Flight Time", but there is NOTHING in the CARs stating I can't put this in my log book but this time does NOT count towards a higher licence.

You can log whatever you want and I'm willing to bet TC will most likely never catch it, but one day they might just be very bored and compare your personal log book to the airplanes Journey Log and if they see a flight in your personal logbook that isn't in the JL or that the flight never left the ground I can almost guarantee they will not allow it to be counted towards your licence.

Now nobody so far who has posted, to my knowledge, works for TC, so all our opinions are worth exactly the same, nothing.

One final thing, is 0.2 really that important to you to risk it? I'm more then willing to bet Cat can't even tell you his time to the closest 1000 hours little all to the decimal point, and I bet there are a lot of other pilots on here that can say the same thing.

Lurch

I have a couple of thousand that aren't in my log book. Back then didn't matter. Lots of guys didn't log after a few thousand, until they came out with some word that you MUST log time in your log book.

[old_man]

Lots of guys didn't log after a few thousand, until they came out with some word that you MUST log time in your log book.

You MUST log time in your log book? This is news to me.

[Colonel Sanders]

You MUST log time in your log book?

No, you don't. That's not what the CARs say, but
some people like to make up their own rules, which
you don't have to pay any attention to.

Many senior pilots don't log anything any more. My
81 year old father hasn't logged anything in many
years, at the insistence of TC. As a former F-104
test pilot, he doesn't seem to be worrying much
about his next airline interview

[torquey401]

Pilots are hilarious!

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... 01-502.htm

" Personal Logs

401.08 (1) Every applicant for, and every holder of, a flight crew permit, licence or rating shall maintain a personal log in accordance with subsection (2) and with the personnel licensing standards for the documentation of

(a) experience acquired in respect of the issuance of the flight crew permit, licence or rating; and
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(b) recency.

(2) A personal log that is maintained for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) shall contain the holder's name and the following information in respect of each flight:

(a) the date of the flight;

(b) the type of aircraft and its registration mark;

(c) the flight crew position in which the holder acted;

(d) the flight conditions with respect to day, night, VFR and IFR;

(e) in the case of a flight in a aeroplane or helicopter, the place of departure and the place of arrival;

(f) in the case of a flight in an aeroplane, all of the intermediate take-offs and landings;

(g) the flight time;

(h) in the case of a flight in a glider, the method of launch used for the flight; and

(i) in the case of a flight in a balloon, the method of inflation used for the flight.

(3) No person shall make an entry in a personal log unless the person

(a) is the holder of the log; or

(b) has been authorized to make the entry by the holder of the log. "

[CFR]

Pilots are hilarious!

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... 01-502.htm

" Personal Logs

401.08 (1) Every applicant for, and every holder of, a flight crew permit, licence or rating shall maintain a personal log in accordance with subsection (2) and with the personnel licensing standards for the documentation of

(a) experience acquired in respect of the issuance of the flight crew permit, licence or rating; and
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(b) recency.

(2) A personal log that is maintained for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) and (b) shall contain the holder's name and the following information in respect of each flight:

(a) the date of the flight;

(b) the type of aircraft and its registration mark;

(c) the flight crew position in which the holder acted;

(d) the flight conditions with respect to day, night, VFR and IFR;

(e) in the case of a flight in a aeroplane or helicopter, the place of departure and the place of arrival;

(f) in the case of a flight in an aeroplane, all of the intermediate take-offs and landings;

(g) the flight time;

(h) in the case of a flight in a glider, the method of launch used for the flight; and

(i) in the case of a flight in a balloon, the method of inflation used for the flight.

(3) No person shall make an entry in a personal log unless the person

(a) is the holder of the log; or

(b) has been authorized to make the entry by the holder of the log. "

I read that to be that a personal log is mandatory for a holder of a licence - am I a hilarious or non-hilarious pilot?

[Colonel Sanders]

maintain a personal log

At my home airport, that requirement is easily met
with an Access to Information request.

See, we have a retired TC Enforcement Inspector on
the field. He has physical and mental problems, but
TC refers to him as "their eyes and ears on the field"
and he continually submits reports to TC, complete
with photos, names, dates and descriptions of events.

He is quite fond of driving a couple circles around an
airplane as it starts in his golf cart, taking pictures for
his evidence-gathering hobby. Most people feel a bit
sorry for him.

If TC requests any records, we just submit an
Access to Information request for the retired Inspector's
reports to TC, which he makes on an almost daily basis.

It's quite convenient, TC keeping our records for us. We
appreciate it.