Encore WACON released and surprise, it sucks

[anonymity]

So, year 1 for Captain 68/hr rising to 72 year 4, year 1 FO 38, rising to 40.33 year 4.
Then a Westjetter told me the other day the flow through will only bring years of service for upgrade at mainline, but you start a year 1 pay scale going from Encore to WJ, nice work guys, your doing a bang up job for this industry. I guess the silver lining is, it won't be much of a pay cut going from encore captain wages to WJ FO wages, at least that's something(sarcasm)

I don't think they'll be paying that low. I'll wait till I see an official payscale before I judge, but they won't be getting guys with much experience at those wages.

Inverted, those are from the info package they send to interviewees, so I'm going to say that is so far the official pay scale, I can't see why they would misinform potential candidates.
Also of note, I know of one high time pilot who cancelled their interview after finding out the details, too bad there'll be 20 that will for every 1 that won't.

[Kosiw]

Is this scenario reasonable..... for anyone going left seat at Encore is probably taking a lateral or a pay cut from their previous job. At some point in the future (after a whopping $1.00/hr/yr raise), you get the opportunity to jump to the mainline, only to take yet another pay cut to yr 1 F/O wages (if only YOS is carried through for upgrade purposes).

What again is the advantage to all this

Was it set up this way to discourage movement

[ikarus]

What again is the advantage to all this

Was it set up this way to discourage movement

Well, the advantage is you get the prove yourself worthy of flying the 737 when they flow through you one day

[flyer 1492]

Nah, It's to see how much koolaid you can drink.

[Mach1]

For those who are so full of criticism, could any of you answer me this;

What is so different about the way this pay-scale and flow-through is set up compared to how it is at Air Canada? If you work at a regional and move to Air Canada, do you not take a pay cut? Do you not come into the seniority list behind the guys who were hired off the street in front of you?

In all seriousness, is this really any different?

[Paia]

Air Canada doesn't own any of its regionals anymore. There used to be perks of Jazz guys going to AC but not for awhile. Over the years of hard feelings developing between the two different pilot groups... amplified by who's doing what flying and which planes the regionals are allowed, scope etc... Had there been one list made in 1999 things would look a lot different and the pilot group would be 5000 plus, stronger and better for it in my opinion.
Its too bad WJ pilots aren't flying the Q400s, that would be a significant addition to your pilot group and probably less headaches ahead.

[7thirtyseven]

Air Canada doesn't own any of its regionals anymore. There used to be perks of Jazz guys going to AC but not for awhile. Over the years of hard feelings developing between the two different pilot groups... amplified by who's doing what flying and which planes the regionals are allowed, scope etc... Had there been one list made in 1999 things would look a lot different and the pilot group would be 5000 plus, stronger and better for it in my opinion.
Its too bad WJ pilots aren't flying the Q400s, that would be a significant addition to your pilot group and probably less headaches ahead.

Short and sweet would be ac relationship with anyone else is a shitshow.
What makea me laugh Is all the guys who cant remove themselves from the shitshow wagging their "smarter than thou" fingers at guys who have and are working to build something different. Kinda pathetic actually.

[Paia]

Not wagging anything, just saying that a few hundred extra pilot positions at WJ would have been pretty awesome.

[7thirtyseven]

Not wagging anything, just saying that a few hundred extra pilot positions at WJ would have been pretty awesome.

Agreed. Fingers crossed.

[flyer 1492]

Air Canada doesn't own any of its regionals anymore. There used to be perks of Jazz guys going to AC but not for awhile. Over the years of hard feelings developing between the two different pilot groups... amplified by who's doing what flying and which planes the regionals are allowed, scope etc... Had there been one list made in 1999 things would look a lot different and the pilot group would be 5000 plus, stronger and better for it in my opinion.
Its too bad WJ pilots aren't flying the Q400s, that would be a significant addition to your pilot group and probably less headaches ahead.

Short and sweet would be ac relationship with anyone else is a shitshow.
What makea me laugh Is all the guys who cant remove themselves from the shitshow wagging their "smarter than thou" fingers at guys who have and are working to build something different. Kinda pathetic actually.

Believe it or not what WJ is doing is no different than what has happened before. No different than AC and CDN setting up their own regional carriers. The race continues...

[Mach1]

Air Canada doesn't own any of its regionals anymore. There used to be perks of Jazz guys going to AC but not for awhile. Over the years of hard feelings developing between the two different pilot groups... amplified by who's doing what flying and which planes the regionals are allowed, scope etc... Had there been one list made in 1999 things would look a lot different and the pilot group would be 5000 plus, stronger and better for it in my opinion.
Its too bad WJ pilots aren't flying the Q400s, that would be a significant addition to your pilot group and probably less headaches ahead.

Okay, but that's not what actually happened. Yes, it would have been nice but... what really exists is that you have to take a pay-cut to move to Air Canada. I hope you are as strongly opposed to them as well.

As for those who blame the pilots for allowing this to happen; what makes you think the pilots run the company? These decisions are made in the boardroom. The pilots can kick back to a degree, and from what I am reading in here, they are kicking back, but the pilots don't run WJ anymore than the pilots run AC. Don't make this a personal attack on the people who work for a company based on the actions of management. That's like holding each of you personally responsible for the decisions of the Federal Government. Some decisions are made against the wishes of the masses, and it takes time to address those issues and some times they never get fixed.

[snowball]

This is the part that I dont get sometimes. Its pretty much unanimous outside of WJ that everyone would liked to have seen one pilot list between Encore and WJ. From what some WJers claim here, the same is true within the wj pilot goup. So why didnt the pilots just not apply to encore until perhaps the wj pilot association get this changed to one list. It would have given them some ammo to get such an important wawcon changed if they could say no one will apply until they see one list. The problem with this industry is there is no way to organize the masses. At least a college could have been a central location to organize ideas and get people on board esecially when the pres of the college is from wj. I am guessing the execs at wj would have created one pilot group within a month if there were no applicants. They couldnt afford delaying a billion dollar program because of a pilot list problem. But once again pilots have to put their personal greed aside for such a thing to happen. There lies a whole different problem with this industry.

[flyer 1492]

Some food for thought. I broke down the salaries between Jazz and WJE F/O's for the 4 years along with the percentages. I used Jazz as the level from Airline Pilot Central (for wages).

Jazz Encore Percentage
Yr 1 42.00 38.00 90.5
Yr 2 47.00 38.76 82.5
Yr 3 55.00 39.54 71.9
Yr 4 57.00 40.33 70.8

It better be one hell of a profit sharing cheque!!!!

[Lateralus]

Some food for thought. I broke down the salaries between Jazz and WJE F/O's for the 4 years along with the percentages. I used Jazz as the level from Airline Pilot Central (for wages).

Jazz Encore Percentage
Yr 1 42.00 38.00 90.5
Yr 2 47.00 38.76 82.5
Yr 3 55.00 39.54 71.9
Yr 4 57.00 40.33 70.8

It better be one hell of a profit sharing cheque!!!!

LOL get a life dude.

[Squid]

The only difference that counts is jazz will be shrunk even further over the course of 4 years.
And likely smaller yet in 10. Interesting challenges coming for jazz. Just can't understand who was sleeping at the wheel to allow sky to grab the island and now a lot more.......anyone? Hello pot calling kettle? Lol . My bro said the flow will have me over in two years. Awesome. That's why they went with a small 4 year scale me thinks.

[flyer 1492]

Hey, who knows what is instore in the next 2 to 4 or even 10 years. I was just pointing out that the first year is at 90% but the longer you sit in the right seat the worse off you will be. If you are a captain at WJE for two years then your pay per hour would be 69.36, when you transition over you drop back to 56.24 and start working your way back up the pay grade. If another pilot was hired straight onto the '37 at the same time you were, they would be further ahead in pay. So the choice is yours to make...

[7thirtyseven]

Some food for thought. I broke down the salaries between Jazz and WJE F/O's for the 4 years along with the percentages. I used Jazz as the level from Airline Pilot Central (for wages).

Jazz Encore Percentage
Yr 1 42.00 38.00 90.5
Yr 2 47.00 38.76 82.5
Yr 3 55.00 39.54 71.9
Yr 4 57.00 40.33 70.8

It better be one hell of a profit sharing cheque!!!!

Interesting, I like your style.

This is the part that I dont get sometimes. Its pretty much unanimous outside of WJ that everyone would liked to have seen one pilot list between Encore and WJ. From what some WJers claim here, the same is true within the wj pilot goup. So why didnt the pilots just not apply to encore until perhaps the wj pilot association get this changed to one list. It would have given them some ammo to get such an important wawcon changed if they could say no one will apply until they see one list. The problem with this industry is there is no way to organize the masses. At least a college could have been a central location to organize ideas and get people on board esecially when the pres of the college is from wj. I am guessing the execs at wj would have created one pilot group within a month if there were no applicants. They couldnt afford delaying a billion dollar program because of a pilot list problem. But once again pilots have to put their personal greed aside for such a thing to happen. There lies a whole different problem with this industry.

Again, the two lists was a result of a specific threat to the pilot group at WJ in the way Encore could have been formed. For example lets say one of the options to have aregional was to buy JAZZ and slap Teal "Encore" stickers on it.... The WJPA had to protect its own against a "worst case scenario". As Encore purchased A/C arrive flown by Encore hired crew the really messy scenarios disipate.... With a structure of an airline inplace its easier to order more A/C than to purchase a "preexisting structure" and the threats to WJ pilots of one list rapidly swings to threats from two lists.
So inspite of all the criticism what the WJ pilots have done and ARE DOING is brilliant. The "execs" have nothing to do with it other than saying "we want a regional carrier that makes lots of money, here are the options..."

[yycflyguy]

Some food for thought. I broke down the salaries between Jazz and WJE F/O's for the 4 years along with the percentages. I used Jazz as the level from Airline Pilot Central (for wages).

Jazz Encore Percentage
Yr 1 42.00 38.00 90.5
Yr 2 47.00 38.76 82.5
Yr 3 55.00 39.54 71.9
Yr 4 57.00 40.33 70.8

It better be one hell of a profit sharing cheque!!!!

So Encore is only offering 2% annual raise? Does not even match Cost of Living. In 4 years you are over 4% behind from your year 1 salary.

Will Encore guys be entitled to mainline profit sharing cheques, Encore only profit share or non at all?

[Fanblade]

Related. Well sort of. Evolution in the regional market. The downward pressure continues.

The message is simple. Ask for a living wage at a regional? You get replaced.

JANUARY 24, 2013

American signs 12-year agreement with Republic Airways for large regional jet flying

American Airlines said on Thursday that it has signed a 12-year deal with Republic Airways to provide the Fort Worth-based carrier with large regional jet flying.

The agreement will give American access to 53 Embraer E-175 jets that have 76 seats, including 12 first class seats. Republic will purchase and operate the aircraft under the American Eagle livery starting in the middle of the year.

All 53 aircraft will be in service by the first quarter of 2015, the carrier said.

"Establishing a large regional jet fleet has long been part of our business plan and this agreement is another example of how we are executing on that plan in a way that benefits our business and our customers," said American vice president of planning . Schubert. "We will offer more flights at the right intervals throughout the day in key markets while providing more opportunities for customers to travel in the First Class cabin to key business markets."

Republic's Chautauqua Airlines currently operates regional jet service for American with 15 Embraer E-140 aircraft from Chicago O'Hare airport.

Skywest takes over American Eagle routes.

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2012/09/12/aa-s ... e-flights/

[CanadaEH]

Not much new in this topic over the past week so it was only a matter of time until someone started trolling.

[Fanblade]

Not much new in this topic over the past week so it was only a matter of time until someone started trolling.

Me thinks you protest too much. I get you would like this to go away and not be attached to WJ. But it won't. WJ jumped in all on their own. Continued downward pressure on regional wages will increase whether it is WJ, AC, Delta, United or AA applying the boot. We are all part of the problem.

About 10 pages back this is touched on and how the regional market, particularly in Canada, is about to radically change. I would hardly call it trolling. We all compete in the same arena. One gets a competitive advantage? All others eventually follow suit. Compete or parish.

Reality?

The America carriers sold out the below 100 seat market for cash to mainline pilots. AC pilots did the same, then failed while trying to reverse course. WJ pilots just handed it over.

We all have a hand in this. We all failed. Regional wages will drop. Skyregional and Encore are the new benchmark. Downward pressure will continue from there.

It will continue until WE as a group stand up and say no. Get your cost savings elsewhere. The problem is that those with the ability to say "no", aren't. Instead WE are by in large leveraging it for personal gain. Others pay the price so WE just don't care.

Welcome to the club. Big club too.

[Mad Catz]

Friends don't let friends, go to Encore.

[flyer 1492]

Friends don't let friends, go to Encore.

[Squid]

lemme know how that works out for ya...the first 2 classes are in the hired pool for encore.
the pressure is on now so what can you do about it other than complain flyer I guess you can go to ac lol...oops sore spot.

[flyer 1492]

lemme know how that works out for ya...the first 2 classes are in the hired pool for encore.
the pressure is on now so what can you do about it other than complain flyer I guess you can go to ac lol...oops sore spot.

Hey Squid,

Good luck to the new hire Captains at Encore. With all the training that is instore for them, they will probally see only 70 hours per month for the next year and a half. They are the lucky ones, the f/o's will take it on the chin. As to where I am or should go, I am happy working where I am.


Cheers,
Flyer

BTW It is called free speech