ALPA Canada releases video on Foreign pilots issue

[Gilles Hudicourt]

5 February 2013

ALPA Canada Board President on Foreign Pilots Operating in Canada

The issue of foreign pilots operating in Canada continues to be the ALPA Canada Board’s top priority. We have put together a video to update you on this subject.

In the video, Capt. Dan Adamus, Canada Board president, gives you a detailed overview of the issue and the actions that ALPA is taking to resolve this problem and bring furloughed ALPA pilots back to work.

[whipline]

Shocking the video makes zero mention of Canjet and Transat, both ALPA and both the grand facilitators of the mess we're in right now.

[Rogerdodger2]

So typical ALPA makes no mention of the fact that their own members are working for airlines doing the exact same thing. Makes me shake my head when I see this hypocritical crap for the "good of everyone".

[60N30W]

Rogerdodger2,

What difference does it make if ALPA members are working for a carrier that has employed foreign pilots or not? It is not as if a line pilot has many options, what would you like those guys to do? Quit?


Whipline,

How is (Air) Transat exactly "a grand facilitators of the mess we're in right now " ?

Regards,

M.Jackson

[hithere]

This issue would have been a hell of a lot easier to deal with if Alpa had agreed to represent Sunwing during their recent union drive. For reasons unknown, they couldn't/wouldn't represent Sunwing and their pilots ended up being represented by the CAW

[Gilles Hudicourt]

It's amazing how often, when this subject comes up, the comments that are posted by certain people are meant to deflect the attention away from the real subject. When Gilles posts, they comment on Gilles and his hairstyle, his paycheck, his agenda, but not on foreign pilots. When ALPA gets involved, they comment on ALPA and attack ALPA, but again avoid the subject. Some people even have the audacity to try to make the readers believe that Transat and ALPA are somehow responsible for Sunwing's 230 foreign pilots.........

Back to the truth now and to the real issue:

Capt Adamus informs us that there are 3 ways to bring in foreign pilots

1) With HRSDC's TFWP
2) With CIC's reciprocal agreement
3) With the CTA's wet-lease.

About HRSDC he says :

"We have not yet been successful in persuading HRSDC that the requirement for a 737NG rating is inappropriate"

That says it all. This winter HRSDC issued 119 LMO to Sunwing for foreign pilots and another 32 LMO to Canjet for the same.

About the reciprocal agreements under CIC

ALPA has learned that there are far more foreign pilots working in Canada than there are Canadians working abroad under reciprocal agreement. There is no effective reciprocity

CIC did refuse some work permits to Sunwing this year, but they still gave some out. Captain Adamus informs us that headway was made with CIC. They will better count the number of pilots in reciprocity agreements, apply the new ratios of foreign to Canadian pilots in reciprocity agreements and :

Citizenship and Immigration Canada officials used to erroneously include the number of pilots in wet-lease operations into the reciprocal agreement numbers. They have now assured us that foreign pilots in wet-lease operations will not be calculated in the reciprocity calculations.

That is what I've been denouncing from day one. Almost all of Sunwing's pilots who went to Europe went there flying Sunwing aircraft, registered in Canada and flying under the Sunwing AOC. The foreign pilots they brought in to Canada were flying Canadian registered aircraft, and the wet-lease foreign pilots they brought into Canada were not counted.

The Canadian Transportation Agency announced it would conduct a review of its wet-lease policy as a result of pressure from our lobbying efforts

The pressure now has to be put on HRSDC to convince them that requiring a type rating as a condition of employment is not enough reason to exclude a qualified Canadian in favor of a foreigner.

[corytrevor]

Why not have every unemployed pilot approach HRSDC to have them pay for a type rating to help get off of EI.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Why not have every unemployed pilot approach HRSDC to have them pay for a type rating to help get off of EI.

30 Air Transat furloughed pilots did just that last fall. They approached HRSDC stating that they were all going on EI and would prefer if HRSDC helped pay for their 737NG rating instead, which would allow them to qualify for the jobs that were being handed out to the foreigners.

HRSDC did not reply. I have a copy of the whole proposal on my computer and will seek permission from those who wrote it to post it here on AvCanada.

Edit: they just gave me permission to post it. We just have to edit out their personal information first......

[teacher]

This issue would have been a hell of a lot easier to deal with if Alpa had agreed to represent Sunwing during their recent union drive. For reasons unknown, they couldn't/wouldn't represent Sunwing and their pilots ended up being represented by the CAW

From what I understand the foreign pilot issue was one of the stumbling blocks. ALPA USA and their team of lawyers couldn't wrap their heads around having mixed crews in one company and how to represent them in the case of an accident or incident. Stupid reason in my opinion and I along with many other ALPA members have voiced our displeasure at not representing Sunwing pilots.

Rogerdodger2,

What difference does it make if ALPA members are working for a carrier that has employed foreign pilots or not? It is not as if a line pilot has many options, what would you like those guys to do? Quit?


Whipline,

How is (Air) Transat exactly "a grand facilitators of the mess we're in right now " ?

Regards,

M.Jackson

Exactly. ALPA does represent these pilots and WANTS the use of foreign pilots to be done legally and properly.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Why not have every unemployed pilot approach HRSDC to have them pay for a type rating to help get off of EI.

Some did. They were ignored.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/1wzn7rDb ... sp=sharing

[bopain]

Why not have every unemployed pilot approach HRSDC to have them pay for a type rating to help get off of EI.

This whole thing with foreign pilots is about employers not wanting to pay for training. Remember the time where employers were asking you to pay for your PPC??? That was again to get rid of training costs and pass on to somebody else what they should have been paying. These days, training bonds seem to have been the way to make it fair for both parties. Now, don't you think that if EI pays for B737 type ratings, companies will have made their ways, AGAIN, to get rid of costs and pass them on to someone else??? It's a company's responsibility to provide training. This would be a HUGE step back for pilots.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Why not have every unemployed pilot approach HRSDC to have them pay for a type rating to help get off of EI.

This whole thing with foreign pilots is about employers not wanting to pay for training. Remember the time where employers were asking you to pay for your PPC??? That was again to get rid of training costs and pass on to somebody else what they should have been paying. These days, training bonds seem to have been the way to make it fair for both parties. Now, don't you think that if EI pays for B737 type ratings, companies will have made their ways, AGAIN, to get rid of costs and pass them on to someone else??? It's a company's responsibility to provide training. This would be a HUGE step back for pilots.

I agree, but these guys were asking HRSDC to pay for their simulator instead of
1) paying them EI
2) giving the jobs to foreigners who were already trained

Either way, the employer was getting away with not paying for the training.

[OPEC6-Heavy]

hithere,
well said

This issue would have been a hell of a lot easier to deal with if ALPA had agreed to represent Sunwing during their recent union drive. For reasons unknown, they couldn't/wouldn't represent Sunwing and their pilots ended up being represented by the CAW

What a sad organization, they didn't have the Balls to take-in the SWG pilot group because they where scared of taking this topic head on (gave a sad excuse that they didn't have the resources due to mergers in the USA??? Its a union!!! They depend on greater membership, that's how you make a difference by numbers). Talk about a great opportunity for ALPA to address such a contentious issue with the inclusion of the very company they have issue with. Very sad.

[oh yeah baby]

.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

The subject is foreign pilots in Canada's aircraft guys. Not the color of ALPA office walls. Stop falling in that trap.

[aerosexual]

The subject is foreign pilots in Canada's aircraft guys. Not the color of ALPA office walls. Stop falling in that trap.

Actually Gilles, the subject happens to be "ALPA Canada releases video on Foreign pilots issue". Discussing ALPA and any player including the Transat Group, Canjet as well as your favourite, Sunwing, are very relevant to this discussion. It truly is shameful that ALPA did not want to represent the Sunwing pilot group. It could have given them a lot more power to make a difference in this important issue.

[whipline]

Hi 60, to answer your question. AT and Wj parted company early with 30 days notice. AT went shopping for a company to fly 737's for them. Canjet won the contract. Canjet/AT knew full well they couldn't crew those aircraft with Canadians. First winter Canjet had approx 90 foreigners or a 2 to 1 ratio. Sunwing opposed this practice to the government. Government said everything was legit. Sunwing followed suit 2 yrs later. So yes AT and Canjet are the grand facilitators. Both companies ALPA and still hiring foreigners at one while the other laid off. How can you tell my dog to stop urinating on your lawn while yours is squatting on mine?

Gilles you never mentioned Canjet until I brought it up months after you started your campaign against Sunwing. You still only mention them sparingly. The video doesn't once mention Canjet or transat who started and benefit from the same practice and both ALPA. The message is good, the messenger is full of s*^t

Ps I dont care about your pay,hair, etc.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Gilles you never mentioned Canjet until I brought it up months after you started your campaign against Sunwing. .

Lies. And this is the article that is at the origin of all this:

http://www.newswire.ca/fr/story/884339/ ... ign-pilots

[verybadman]

FACT:
CanJet has never had more than 46 foreign pilots...that was in 2008. Since the numer has decreased to about 26 in 2012/13..all FO's. SunWing has more than 7X that amount.

FACT:
SunWing has mainly foreign registered airframes, drastically more foreign licensed Captains and FO's...This is a foreign airline operating in Canada.

FACT:
CanJet has hired several furloughed Air Transat pilots (2013), not all with NG endorsements.

FACT:
CJA MEC is working very hard to halt the foreign pilots compliment on CJ rosters.

FACT:
There will always be a Canadian licensed PIC on CanJet aircraft. Not so at "SunVing".

[Gorgons]

I support the idea of forcing Canadian companies to only hire employees with Canadian passports, companies shouldn't be allowed to control things like payroll costs through creative hiring practices. If margins are that tight raise your airfares to make up the difference... If you can't compete pack up and close your doors! The other carriers might expand or add extra lift on the routes you were operating. Who else is confident that all the pilots that lose there jobs from the collapse will be hired by the other guys that rush in to pick-up the slack. All for one.... Mmmm maybe none for many?

[Gino Under]

To Dan Adamus and ALPA... THANK YOU for trying to do something about this issue. Far be it for me to criticize you for what you said or how you said it and whether or not you could have done it or said it any better. If I were an ALPA member (I'm not) I wouldn't want my union touching SW pilots until they took their management to task and that hasn't happened yet.

To Gilles... THANK YOU for your excellent effort, time and sacrifices. I appreciate what you have done and continue to do. Some idiots on this forum don't get it and we know who they are. At least you have chosen to do something.

To the layed off pilots from TS... the HRDC Minister says she will track down EI fraudsters and cut them off. Maybe it's time she was made aware of your situation. Layed off and collecting EI while foreigners take up jobs Canadians SHOULD. Shame on her and the Reform Party leader (I still refuse to call the dictator and his government 'Conservatives') that appointed her Minister.

While it may be all we have, the airline industry in Canada remains a complete joke...and this horsesh*t doesn't do anything to make it any better.

Gino Under

P.S. To the Canadian SW pilots, before I'm grossly misunderstood, I know you're between a rock and a hard place but rest assured there are some out here who are pushing the issue even though you may find it difficult from where you sit.

[loopy]

Question:

1) Do we know if ALPA was approached to represent Sunwing pilots? I know there are a number of pilots there who used to fly for the other ACE (AllCanada Express) a few yeas back, and they were represented by CAW. It could be that familiarity that lead in them not going with ALPA. I believe CAW also represents Monringstar, and perhaps other pilot groups as well. They are not new to representing pilots.

I personally think it is a shame what employers are doing here with the sun destination carriers and with the regional operators. If the companies can't afford skilled and experienced drivers to fly the machines, then they aren't charging enough per seat. Plain and simple. However, there is not united voice on behalf of pilots telling industry and the governmental agencies that this isn't acceptable.

ALPA probably represents more professional pilots than any other organization and I applaud that they are trying to speak up. They still don't represent a majority of the profession.

My old soap box: I wish we had a body that lobbied for all pilot's, and not a college, but a professional association, such as represents those in many other professions, that lobbies the governing agencies for minimum acceptable pay and conditions, and can hold the heat to the companies who are not measuring up.

Anyone else have a soap box they wish to proclaim from?

[OPEC6-Heavy]

loopy,

ALPA made the decision not to represent SWG pilots. This clearly shows a weakness in the organization with regards to fighting real issues head on (more of a political organization than an activist type). SWG pilots would still have to vote on allowing ALPA to represent anyways (not sure it was a sure sell to the group anyways). CAW was one of the options presented at the time and was voted in I think because of their negotiating expertise just to name a few. Soon the SWG pilot group will in my own opinion become larger than the TS and CJ groups combined and that are currently represented by ALPA. Like I said before, I think ALPA missed a great opportunity to tackle the Foreign pilot issue head on from within.

[ea306]

As I remember being told by our MEC at the time:

ALPA was approached first. ALPA turned SUNPAC down. SUNPAC did not have enough money in their bank account for ALPA....amongst other concerns such as labour issues in the US. Did not want to take on the Sunwing Pilot Group.

AFTER being turned down by ALPA, CAW was approached next. CAW were very accommodating.

Some other BONUSES:
- Negotiating expertise.
- Established Aerospace division
- CAW did not care how much money was in the the SUNPAC bank account and further more did not want any of our funds.
- CAW Union dues were less than ALPA.

The pilot group quickly and unanimously voted in CAW.