Cessna 175 in Cache County-Utah, Onboard Video

[photofly]

Carb icing doesn't mean there is ice forming on the prop.

I know. Cat said the only time he used full fine was for takeoff/landing. I was wondering how he felt about for in-flight icing. Nothing contentious intended.

[into the blue]

Setting the prop control to full fine will simply allow the engine to develop the most power it can with an already low manifold pressure and, hopefully, allow for a slower descent and more time to melt the ice in the carburetor. Of course, if the engine is developing so little power that the blades are already at their fine stops, you can move the prop control back and forth all you want and it won't change the RPM by even by a fraction. The action of pushing the knob only takes a second, though, it is worth a try.

I hope this explanation is clear enough and I am not creating any further confusion.

P.S. Many AFMs that I've seen so far do mention increasing RPM when in-flight icing is encountered. The only thing they say is that it is supposed to reduce the build-up on the blades. This is thread drift; let's bring it back on track, boys.

[BTyyj]

Carb icing doesn't mean there is ice forming on the prop.

I know. Cat said the only time he used full fine was for takeoff/landing. I was wondering how he felt about for in-flight icing. Nothing contentious intended.

Apologies photofly, my mistake; I missed the connection.

[pelmet]

He made the right choice, just failed at the test of skill. You can land in some really terrible stuff and keep the Cessna right side up. Having some time on floats and skis helps knowing what to do. Roads are almost always second choice for me, I'd have to know there was a lot of snow in that field to not choose it. But then again, being a farm kid I can be discerning about how nice the field is going to be to land in.

If you have trouble landing on pavement as it is, well then any sort of non pavement is going to give you trouble.

What skill test did he fail for the landing. You are almost guaranteed to flip over. With that in mind and the likelyhood of no shoulder harnesses in the back and the baby on board being held, I am amazed there were no injuries. It is not entirely clear but there does not appear to be any traffic on the road. Either choice could end in a violent result but a snow covered field pretty much guarantees it.

And you cannot tell snow depth from the air. So only local knowledge may help in that case.

I would suggest that in this situation with the high initial altitude of the failure to at least circle over the highway and see if it looks reasonable and then if not reasonable go for one of the many fields. But either choice could end in a violent result.

[photofly]

Either choice could end in a violent result but a snow covered field pretty much guarantees it.

If that's true, it's not common knowledge.

Is there anything that a pilot with no experience of flying off skis could be told that would help them in the event of a forced landing in snow?

[Shiny Side Up]

What skill test did he fail for the landing. You are almost guaranteed to flip over.

Um, no you're not. The secret to landing on soft surfaces is touch down as slow as possible and make sure you keep the nose up. While there's always the possibility of finding a hole big enough to swallow a wheel, unless there is a large infestation of badgers that's somewhat unlikely.

edit: The problem is that most people's landing skills are poor to begin with, with a tendancy to land fast and flat which is disasterous on a soft surface. Do it on water or skis and you'll end up upside down before you can say "hoochimama".

Is there anything that a pilot with no experience of flying off skis could be told that would help them in the event of a forced landing in snow?

Yes, but in truth its a lifetime experience with snow so one could probably write a book on the subject. Best bet is to look for a place to touch down at where you can see the stubble poking through, or in some cases where one can see the field has been worked. Crop fields are better than pasture. There will be animals in pasture land if that wasn't already obvious. Less likely for there to be hidden holes or rocks in cropfields. don't try to land too close to the edges of fields, snow drifts nearer to the treeline and fencelines. Fields that are uniformly white are usually pretty deep, again land closer to the middle of the field if that's an only choice. Snow tends not to gather where the wind can blow, so high ground is usually preferable. Bigger fields are better. Some of the same stuff can be applied to frozen lakes, though again different concerns there to watch for.

edit 2: Americans not knowing about snow I can understand but you people call yourselves Canadians? I know of at least a hundred different words to describe that stuff in its various forms and constistencies.

[2550]

Ooh oooh! Ive got some more wisdom re landing in deep snow covered feilds! Dont do it unless you have skis or you ll flip over! I saw a video about it recently!

[photofly]

The secret to landing on soft surfaces is touch down as slow as possible and make sure you keep the nose up.

In respect of the application of flaps, those two goals are contradictory. Full flap slows the touchdown speed, but also lowers the pitch attitude achievable. Which is more important?

[CpnCrunch]

The secret to landing on soft surfaces is touch down as slow as possible and make sure you keep the nose up.

In respect of the application of flaps, those two goals are contradictory. Full flap slows the touchdown speed, but also lowers the pitch attitude achievable. Which is more important?

But the nosewheel will still be above the ground on touchdown. I would imagine you'd just hold it off as long as you can, and full flaps will get you the lowest possible touchdown speed.

The problem I see is that with a snow covered surface it might be difficult to judge your height above the ground.

I thought it a little unusual that he grabbed his checklist, but maybe he was just making sure he hadn't forgotten anything.

Also I'm wondering if the GO-300 just crapped out rather than carb ice. It seems a little unlikely that there would be carb ice on a bright winter day in Utah (or at least, enough to completely kill the engine.)

[Cat Driver]

In respect of the application of flaps, those two goals are contradictory. Full flap slows the touchdown speed, but also lowers the pitch attitude achievable. Which is more important?

This ongoing word salading of basic aircraft handling and coloring outside of the lines is driving me nuts.

I have looked back on sixty years of flying and tried to remember just one airplane that was flap equipped from the Mooney Mite to heavy jets that with full back elevator will " NOT " hold a pitch up attitude that allows touch down on the main gear with the nose wheel clear of the runway.

Maybe I am getting senile but I can not remember one.

WTF am I missing in this discussion???

Landing on a snow covered surface has many different problems two of which are height judjment can be as difficult as glassy water.....and....

The chances of the airplane flipping on its back are high.....therefore try and touch down as slow as possible if you can actually judge the height above the surface....

[photofly]

Keep calm. Nobody said you couldn't keep the nose off the runway. We're not discussing landing on a runway.

Is it important just to keep the nose just higher than the mains, or as high out of the snow as possible?

If you can get the nosewheel 3' higher than the mains with the flaps up, you could presumably keep the nose out of the snow in a 3' drift, at least to start with. if with the flaps down you can only get it 1' higher than the mains, it's buried in snow before the mains touch anything solid.

Just asking.

[Cat Driver]

Sigh.......

Land as slow as possible with the nose as high as possible.

The possibility of getting injured increases with velocity and how fast it stops right side up or upside down.

A good well adjusted shoulder harness will greatly improve your chances of not getting injured.

When I flew the Pitts I was strapped in like I was bolted to the airframe.

Same goes for flying ag planes........

Fortunately I never needed the harness as I never wrecked one.

[GyvAir]

If you can get the nosewheel 3' higher than the mains with the flaps up...

Could you get the nose wheel much more than a foot above the mains in a C-175 before the tail started carving a track of its own?

[Shiny Side Up]

If you can get the nosewheel 3' higher than the mains with the flaps up, you could presumably keep the nose out of the snow in a 3' drift, at least to start with. if with the flaps down you can only get it 1' higher than the mains, it's buried in snow before the mains touch anything solid.

Better yet, just avoid plowing through a snow drift. Snow drifts don't just form in the middle of nowhere, and if you do see them in a field, land parallel rather than perpendicular. I swear, its like people haven't seen snow before. Do I need to go take some pictures of the fields around here?

[iflyforpie]

What does flaps have to do with how high you can raise the nose? I just got back from ferrying a 1957 straight tail 172--pretty much identical to the plane in the accident other than engine--and I was able to keep the nose gear well clear of the runway for more than half my ground roll with 40 degrees of flap.

[burhead1]

if you can actually judge the height above the surface..

That can be extremely difficult on a sunny snow covered day. I would assume, very much like glassy water.

[Cat Driver]

Sunny days are not all that bad for judging height above snow.....unless there is just flat snow.

The worse type of conditions are flat light ( Low light ) then you treat it like glassy water.

The best snow landing conditions was at night with flare pots along both sides of the snow / ice strip.

I will never forget one landing in the DC3 on wheel skis, everything looked perfect until we were almost stopped and the next thing we could see was....nothing because we had landed in a big area of new fluffy snow and the airplane just sunk down to its belly in the snow and it just turned into a blizzard of snow once the props got in it.

Fortunately there was a cat at the site and they ploughed out a runway long enoigh to get us going again on our take off run.

Can't remember exactly where it happened but it was during my DC3 flying time at Austin Airways in the late sixties.....

.....flew about five thousand hours on the DC3 and a lot of it was on wheel skis.

[PilotDAR]

Some good discussion, and some slightly skewed information...

If you are landing on an unbroken surface with few or no cues as to height above ground, you're off to a big disadvantage from the start. No power makes it much worse. Flipping over in nearly any type of plane is a risk. You're not going to be able to judge to flare. Too low, you see what happens, too high, you know what happens! You're probably going to wreck the plane - make it as safe a crash as you can. Strap in and contact the surface under control, probably too fast, it's the way it's got to be.

All certified aircraft are designed so that you will have an effective elevator right down to the stall, that's one of the design definitions of the stall. You'll be able to keep the nose wheel up if you try. Now, if you stall it on, all is lost, the nose wheel, and whole plane are going to do their own thing, and you're just along for the ride.

Yes, generally, flying as slowly as possible is better when landing. There are a few types where touching down well above stall speed is safely possible, and indeed required for a better landing. The people training those types know what they are doing. A few types are best not stalled on.

However, that said, when force landing a tricycle Cessna onto a surface which I can judge, I would aim to have the elevator full up at the point of contact (with full flaps). After I touch, I'm still going to have the elevator all the way back, until it is no longer effective. It will also create drag, and slow you faster. Power off, you could not drag the tail of a Cessna, it will slow down too quickly, and the elevator effectiveness will be lost. Power on, however, it can be done!

There are too many variables associated with "snowy field" landings to cover them all here relevantly. Most important: Touch down in control, at the slowest speed appropriate for the aircraft, then keep the nose up, 'till you no longer can.....

[Cat Driver]

Great post pilotdar, I kind of figured someone here with a proper understanding of how to fly would hop in and give a clear explanation of the risks involved in a situation such as the one being discussed here. !!!

But the very best part of your post was this.

and the elevator effectiveness will be lost

It is so refreshing to see the word. " effectivness " used instead of " authority "

[2550]

Good post pilotdar. This has been enlightening. Until I read this thread I assumed most folks on avcanada at least had flown a 172...guess not.

[pelmet]

.

[pelmet]

What skill test did he fail for the landing. You are almost guaranteed to flip over.

Um, no you're not. The secret to landing on soft surfaces is touch down as slow as possible and make sure you keep the nose up. While there's always the possibility of finding a hole big enough to swallow a wheel, unless there is a large infestation of badgers that's somewhat unlikely.

edit: The problem is that most people's landing skills are poor to begin with, with a tendancy to land fast and flat which is disasterous on a soft surface. Do it on water or skis and you'll end up upside down before you can say "hoochimama".

Based on your statement of most people having poor landing skills, I would suggest to them to seriously consider landing on little used road to the right in the video. It is nice to be one of the guys with lots of landing skill but how recently have any of us practiced getting a deep snow landing recently in a fixed gear aircraft. And that snow does look deep over there in the mountains of Utah, a place known for lots of snow.

Depth perception was brought up by someone else and that is a good point. I would suspect that even on a sunny day, if you are in a wide open expanse of smooth snow, there will be little depth perception or it may be really bright in your eyes close to the ground making height judgement difficult at best. Anyways, we'll never know if he might have killed everyone in an accident with a vehicle if he had chosen the road. No guarantees in this situation.

In the old days on skis in the Twin Otter, not too many guys were willing to try landing on a new and unknown snow surface without it being a sunny day and probably after several fly-overs. Mind you, up there those wind-packed snow drifts can be really solid and hard not to mention the ice hummocks.

http://www.athropolis.com/arctic-facts/fact-hummock.htm

[Shiny Side Up]

Based on your statement of most people having poor landing skills, I would suggest to them to seriously consider landing on little used road to the right in the video. It is nice to be one of the guys with lots of landing skill but how recently have any of us practiced getting a deep snow landing recently in a fixed gear aircraft.

Like I said before though with a low level of skill it probably won't matter where you try to land its going to end up as a disaster. The point about the field is its more likely to be a survivable disaster. Roads have lots of suprises for the unwary, but in most cases the point is moot. People have neither experience landing in fields or on roads.

[pelmet]

Like I said before though with a low level of skill it probably won't matter where you try to land its going to end up as a disaster. The point about the field is its more likely to be a survivable disaster. Roads have lots of suprises for the unwary, but in most cases the point is moot. People have neither experience landing in fields or on roads.

Actually, you said most peoples landing skills are poor to begin with and this was in reference to whether most pilots would be able to land in snow properly. But most people are not crashing on their regular pavement landings which what the road offered. I would be willing to bet that several highly skilled pilots attempting to land in that field would flip over as it looks like nice deep snow. Mind you, I have learned over the years that it is near impossible to tell snow depth from the air. And I suspect that fields have near as many if not more surprises for the unwary.

A few road landings shown below


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvUQA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zHLcnXZNqc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyXivpHQwoU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3MlRRM9tpA

[Cat Driver]

Lets examine a few facts about landing on roads.

First:

A paved road usually has a center line painted on it just like a runway.

Second:

If the road is paved and outside of a town / city it usually has a cleared area along side of it.

Third:

If you are considering landing on it and you still have an engine running you can do a exploratory fly over to inspect it.

If you are landing with no engine you generally can get a pretty good idea of if it is wide and straight enough to land on before you commit to it.

Fourth:

Power lines generally will be visible by looking for the power poles and it is seldom the wires will cross a road if there is no intersecting road.

Fifth:

If you are on the center line there will generally be enough room for your wings, if there is not it will be evident from the air.


Sixth:

Roads seldom have snow deep enough to flip you over when you touch down.



That is a few pluses to examine before you just rule out using a road in an emergency.