"Conflicting Please Advise"

phillyfan · Post by **phillyfan** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:08 pm

If your one of those people that finishes off a longwinded airline type call with this useless phrase. Please stop. I fly North of Armstrong for several hours each day and I hear hundreds of radio calls from Sioux Lookout to Nakina. Some offenders are worse than others. They finish off a 30 second radio call with "conflicting please advice Gulf-Alpha-Bravo-Charlie on 122.8" You can be goddamn sure that if i'm conflicting with you i'll let you know. I would hate to have my Beaver engine die on me and have to glide into the trees on a shitty weather day. All the way down wishing that I could make a radio call so that someone will come looking for my broken body before dawn the next day. Only to hear some A-hole who likes to hear himself talk muffled out only by the sound of snapping poplar and pine. Keep it short and sweet folks "ABC's over Happy lake 3,000 southbound"

cplanedriver · Post by **cplanedriver** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:44 pm

Amen Philly. Where do they learn that shit. Lots of that crap out of Wpg too...KISS principle applies

Typhoon pilot · Post by **Typhoon pilot** » Wed Jun 08, 2005 5:50 pm

AHHHHHH the age old rant !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:49 am

This a perfect example of ignorance.

Cat

floatman · Post by **floatman** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 12:57 am

I hear what you're saying Philly, however not everyone on frequency is flying a Beaver to and from "Happy Lake" at 90 knots at FL TREE-TOP. Maybe you should consider that some of these guys are descending through cloud at 250+ knots and are flying procedures which follow checklists. Standard, itemized radio calls which leave nothing to chance are part of those procedures which allow them to operate effeciently with minimal conflict with other similar traffic.

Some of these guys are monitoring two different radios and including the freq. just eliminates the need for potential conflicts to guess which one he is transmitting on.

Not here to bust your balls but I have been on both sides of the fence, including flying seaplanes in and out of an International control zone everyday, so I can appreciate the need for clarity in position reporting.

P.S. How many guys have been descending IFR into One-Tooth Ontario, trying to get a radio call in on 22.8 while the float drivers are discussing the hockey game last night or how many propanes are needed at BigFish lake......

LostinRotation · Post by **LostinRotation** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:39 am

...not to mention in a highly populated area of student pilots that may still be intimidated by the radio, it's pretty easy for them to report a conflict because they were just given all the info they need....

-=0=LIR=0=-

FloatDriver · Post by **FloatDriver** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 5:32 am

Amen to floatman, Cat Driver and LostinRotation.

Following an incident years ago, the local operators had a meeting to discuss what could be done to prevent a repeat...there were proper and published procedures; all these operators have to do is followed them.

122.8 is not an air-air or enroute freq. Guys from other parts of the country that arrive in that back (woods) corner of the province are at a loss if they follow proper procedure. (That "corner" is a "Hot-shot-Newbie-building-time-enviroment")

Further, just because your radio is silent doesn't mean that no one is around...they may have just switched freq - broadcast intentions and let people know where to find you - (which freq your on).

Sure - KISS - be clear, concise and follow published rules - study up boys and Instructors - spend more time on radio procedures - please

phillyfan · Post by **phillyfan** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:07 am

Actually the guys flying IFR are not the ones making longwinded calls full of ahhh's and pauses. The Nakina drivers are short and to the point. So are the Wasaya drivers.
I'm also one hundred percent behind float guys not talking useless B.S. on 122.8. I god damn hate the first trip in the morning with all the useless Good Morning crap.
This useless "conflicting please advise on 122.8" is being used by airplanes with one radio many times while taxiing on remote outpost lakes.
One example of this involves a small lake just west of Armstrong which can be very busy on a Saturday morning. Company "A" runs a couple of Otters and a Beaver. There are also 4 other Beavers and a number of smaller Cub's etc. The company "A" drivers do there usual 30 second calls followed by the morning ritual of how are you this morning crap. While taxing toward the south end. An airplane unable to make a call lands from the north end and frightens company "A" driver who then calls the other guy an A-hole on the radio for not making a call. In fact he did make a call but was stepped on .

Driving Rain · Post by **Driving Rain** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:35 am

Phillyfan,
Tough tits. :gib:

I hate having to listen to 122.8 too, I call it the soap opera channel but listen to it I do along with the MF or 126.7 as well as our own FM picking up direction bearing and any other info I'll need to fight a fire. I don't have the luxury of flying my own little area and knowing the local name of every lake like you do so my advisories tend to give altitude, bearing, distances and vicinity of from known points like Armpit or Gerbleton.
The last thing I want is to cut or be cut in half by some guy in a Beaver. I'm one of those guys that finishes off my no more than 10 second blurb with conflicting it's tanker 123 on 122.8. It's not a perfect system in fact it's far from it but it's all we've got so I'm using every chance I get.

Yoyoma · Post by **Yoyoma** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 7:32 am

I'm not a guru to argue but doesn't logic dicatate this:

A long boring call -> Many people miss the start ->Your ear picks up a familiar location-> You listen -> So by saying:"conflicting traffic advise C-FCUK ->You can directly discuss with FCUK and not dispatch a general "last A/C bla bla bla" especially if someone makes a call between his and yours!

Just safety I guess, nothing to rant about!

phillyfan · Post by **phillyfan** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:18 am

Well you can all clog up 122.8 all you like, but it's a good thing the majority of us out there don't, because if we all choose to use 122.8 like some. Most float planes would be spending alot more time on there company frequency just so there base can get ahold of them without being stepped on and with Turbine Otters flying up to ten thousand feet and screwing around in cloud that's going to get good and dangerous.

CLguy · Post by **CLguy** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:49 am

Phillyfan, how often do you transmit your px on 126.7 which is the freq you are suppose to be transmitting it on? Like Driving Rain stated we end up in lots of parts of the country and the worst thing is some Beaver transmitting that he is over East Bay inbound to the sea plane base on 122.8 when he should be doing it on 126.7 or the MF. I had a near miss with a 180 a few years back for that exact reason. He was on 122.8 telling the world his px based on some local landmark that no one not familiar with the area would have a clue about and I was transmitting on and monitoring 126.7 and the MF, which is exactly what I was suppose to be doing. When I talked to him later he was real put out about it and blamed me because I wasn't on 122.8. The major problem is most locals transmit their px's on 122.8 using local landmarks and expect everyone to know where they are regardless of what freq the rules say they should be on. That is certainly a far bigger safety problem than worrying about whether you will be able to transmit a mayday once your Beaver engine quits.

Yoyoma I agree with you. Most times I don't catch the initial part of a broadcast because we monitor 3 different radios so it is nice to hear the ident at the end.

phillyfan · Post by **phillyfan** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 9:33 am

I tend to use 126.7 if i'm in an area that IFR traffic may be present. It tends to apply mainly to Fort Hope and Lansdowne in our part of the world. Also if I'm inbound to Armstrong from the East or North East i'll be sure to let any wheel trafic know before I go ripping across the approach to the runway. I have no problem with guys giving there position in distances. The reason it's better to use lakes for the regular float traffic is because we tend to all be ripping around in the same ground to 3,000 area and we are all more or less headed Northwest, North or Northeast. Routes which bring us over certain prominant landmarks. ie: lakes which our a good 10+ miles long. It's easier for everybody if I say "ABC's over the east end of Whiteclay 3,000 southbound" Then to say " Gulf Alpha Bravo Charlie is a Dehavilland Beaver 42.7 miles North of Armstrong airport at 3,000 feet tracking 209 degrees to the Mckenzie water base estimateing the water in 24 minutes conflicting please advise Alpha Bravo Charlie on 122.8"
Also we receive about 3 wheel flights a day into Armstrong airport. I realize twin engine pilots are often busy chugging along feeling important but if your flying through a place with heavy float traffic it can't hurt to take a gander at a map and familiarize yourself with atleast a few of the lakes around the town. Especially the ones that stretch out of sight over the horizon. I don't go blazing into unfamiliar places without a map in my hand and a pretty fair idea what the name's of the lakes immediatly around me are. This especially applies to 337 pilots flying east west at 3000 feet North of busy float centres. If they would simply look at a map once and a while they would learn the names of lakes that there going back anf forth over every day.

desksgo · Post by **desksgo** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 9:38 am

cplanedriver wrote:KISS principle applies

Like the infamous "3 is 6 back for 11 in 5 for a 2-4"

I say put on the Air Canada voice, put your feet up and tell us where ya been, where'ya goin, hows the weather, how's your mom and anything else you feel you'd like to share.

You guys can orbit, you DO need flight time.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:12 am

Anybody remember Roman out of YRL? I could read a chapter if a Wilbur Smith novel while he made an advisory!!
What's wrong with..."Deer Lake traffic, ABC's a King Air inbound from the south, landing in five."??? Says all I want, or need to hear. Thoughts? To simple...NOT!
Want to really cut down on radio chatter? Prevent the next mid-air? I'm serious here....SHUT DOWN YXL FSS!!!!

CLguy · Post by **CLguy** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:59 pm

Phillyfan says:

I tend to use 126.7 if i'm in an area that IFR traffic may be present.

The fact is you should be using it all the time. That is the law but I guess I may as well get a 4th radio so I can monitor 122.8 all the time and go out and buy a 1000 or so VFR charts and familiarize myself with every lake in Canada so I don't inconvenience some Beaver pilot who wants the radio to himself so he can declare an emergency when his engine quits.

phillyfan · Post by **phillyfan** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:57 pm

I doubt you'll need to purchase even one let alone 1000. If your flying bombers for the government I’m sure there supplied. The only question is are you willing to pull it out.
If your not flying for the government then I’m sure your employer will provide maps for the areas he sends his pilots. In my entire career flying commercially my employer is yet to send me into parts of the country I don't know, without a map.
Back in the day. Before GPS's came on the scene people use to have at least a clue where they were. Now people just stare blankly at the tiny screen reading off the digits and times displayed, completely oblivious to their surroundings.
And believe me the last thing IFR guys want is all the float traffic in Northwestern Ontario switching there one radio to 126.7 and making there calls. From 5000 feet and above you'd be lucky to get a word in on a Saturday or Sunday.
So since my airplane has one engine and one radio and flies around below the lowest of IFR altitudes. I'll broadcast my position on 122.8 where 100% of those who are whizzing around trying to smash into me hang out. Now if they could just learn to use the radio like a commercial pilot and not like a stuttering, newbie, moron.

Boss Hawg · Post by **Boss Hawg** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:25 pm

Law or not the fact is that if you're making your calls on 26.7 here nobody's going to hear you because nobody uses it. even 70 miles north everybody's still on 22.8. Call it a local SOP or whatever but it's just the way it is here. I don't know how a transient pilot is expected to know this though.

IMO a far bigger problem is company "A" monopolizing the radio, giving long winded position reports on their squelchy radio every 10 miles, and base calling every damn plane in the sky for an ETA every 5 minutes. If everybody used the radio as much as these guys there quite literally would not be any silence at all. What's so important about a 150 coming in anyway that you can't just walk out to the dock when it comes in and unload the 5 pounds of freight?

Over the Horn · Post by **Over the Horn** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 6:41 pm

121.5 is for distress calls

not 122.8 and if your worried about people not monitoring it start monitoring it yourself maybe the trend will catch on. as for px reports I'm more than happy to hear them especiaslly when I'm low level in low vis (just like knowing who's coming at me the other way)

CLguy · Post by **CLguy** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:21 am

Boss Hawg says:

Call it a local SOP or whatever but it's just the way it is here. I don't know how a transient pilot is expected to know this though.

Exactly my point, so why doesn't everyone adhere to the law and switch to 126.7 and then transient pilots will know this and we can all get away from the "that is just the way it is here" attitude and maybe prevent a midair collision.

Philly, I don't necessarily disagree with you about long winded unnecessary px reports but I see the fact that people are using wrong frequencies as a far bigger problem. As far as maps go we don't even carry fire maps or VFR charts in the bombers. We have WACS and LE's, with GPS coordinates and when I am ferrying low level in low vis through your area or anyone elses I will be giving px's on 26.7 and the MF so hopefully we won't meet over one of your local landmarks at 2000'. Chances are I will win!!!

Floaty Buoy · Post by **Floaty Buoy** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:37 am

[quote="Doc"]Anybody remember Roman out of YRL? I could read a chapter if a Wilbur Smith novel while he made an advisory!!
Roman, was he that Czek or Polish guy? I remeber him. We could hear that dummy from Manitoba.

water wings · Post by **water wings** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:41 am

i have been at both ends of the radio ramble. one case in an old float plane with only one radio that occasionaly transmitted, so yah, i listened a lot, and wrote down the idents of planes on my wee pad of paper and pretty much stayed out of their way. i hope i wasn't guilty of the silent treatment i have been getting lately: i have now graduated to 2 functionning radios and do broadcast on both 22.8, or 23.2 and also on 26.7... my favorite is when i see a plane coming right at me, at a similar altitude and i get no response...even when i say " white and blue Beaver Heading south over the town of NIPIGON at 2500 ft, look out your damn window" nothing. no response.
yah, redundant radio calls filled with ummmss and ahhhhsss, "currently overs" "approximately around" or my fave "xxx leaving Pik for Pop in 2" what Pik, which Pop...

maybe pilots need a mandatory refresher course in radio operations to allow our brains to have more accountability for our mouth's actions.
We should record ourselves and see how we sound to others... we can't all be perfect all the time.

just curious · Post by **just curious** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:57 am

xxx leaving Pik for Pop in 2" what Pik, which Pop...

If memory serves, that would be: Leaving Pikangikum for greater downtown Poplar Hill

After an hour loading, and an hour waiting for my late pax, the excitement level reached in earning 55 money miles, (and an exciting last minute 40 mile minimum side charter

); would have been reduced from my cheerful witty traffic advisory to LJC leaving Pik for Pop.

That would have been back when aircraft were made out of cloth and wood, when poplar and spirit and keewaywin had no strips.

Now that I'm away from places with the first name Fort, or the last name Lake (Around here, everything is named Ik Ak or Uk, often with good reason

) I don't use 22.8. Just 26.7. And my fist officer is the one in charge of witty remarks. I save my Fabio-like voice for days when Flybabe is in from the big city.

LostinRotation · Post by **LostinRotation** » Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:17 pm

just curious wrote:
I don't use 22.8. Just 26.7. And my fist officer is the one in charge of witty remarks. I save my Fabio-like voice for days when Flybabe is in from the big city.

TESTIFY !

-=0=LIR=0=-

dash2/3 · Post by **dash2/3** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 2:39 am

speaking of radio abbreviations, over the past couple of years i have noticed that air creebec crews are getting creative at "renaming" locations that they service. is it in the name of de-congesting 22.8/26.7 ???

for example, i used to hear a bandit or a dash 8 calling "cree XXX off moose for attawapiskat" after a couple of months, a new fresh voice would make a call like "cree XXX off moose for attawap".

then, low and behold, when i figured i've heard it all, a couple of months after that, that same call is now "cree XXX off moose for atta"

whats next, "cree XXX off moose for att".????

end of minor rant, there are worse things the cree boys/girls could be doing, i think they are doing a fine job.

"Conflicting Please Advise"

"Conflicting Please Advise"

Re: "Conflicting Please Advise"

radio abbreviations....