Dual hours

[EchoNovemberAlpha]

I understand that the Min dual hrs for a PPL is 17 hrs.... and that for a CPL is 35 hrs.
However, can't figure out if the 35 hrs for CPL includes the 17 hrs for PPL as well...
any takers?
What would be my Dual hours requirements if I pursue a CPL in Canada with a PPL (over 17 hrs dual) and approx 180 odd TTL obtained outside Canada?

[rdy4immediate]

CARS 421. 30

421.30 Aeroplanes - Requirements

(1) Age

An applicant shall be a minimum of eighteen years of age.

(2) Medical Fitness and Validity

(a) An applicant shall hold a Category 1 Medical Certificate valid for a Commercial Pilot Licence - Aeroplane.

(b) The medical validity period for the licence holder under 40 years of age is 12 months and for a licence holder 40 years of age or over is 6 months.

(c) The licence holder may exercise Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplane privileges until the end of the medical period specified for the Private Pilot Licence.

(d) The licence is maintained by a valid Category 1 Medical Certificate.

(3) Knowledge

An applicant shall have:

(a) completed a minimum of 40 hours commercial pilot aeroplane ground school instruction on the following subjects:

(i) Canadian Aviation Regulations,

(ii) Aerodynamics and Theory of Flight,

(iii) Meteorology,

(iv) Airframes, Engines and Systems,

(v) Flight Instruments,

(vi) Radio and Electronic Theory,

(vii) Navigation,

(viii) Flight Operations,

(ix) Licensing Requirements, and

(x) Human factors including pilot decision-making; and

(b) obtained a minimum of 60% in each of the following four mandatory subjects areas as well as in the overall written examination Commercial Pilot Licence - Aeroplane (CPAER):

(i) Air Law - regulations, rules and orders, air traffic services, practices and procedures, and licensing requirements relevant to the licence;

(ii) Navigation - navigation, radio aids and electronic theory;

(iii) Meteorology;

(iv) Aeronautics - General Knowledge - airframes, engines and systems, theory of flight, flight instruments and flight operations.

(4) Experience

(a) An applicant shall have completed, subject to clause (b)(i)(C), a minimum of 200 hours flight time in aeroplanes, of which a minimum of 100 hours shall be pilot-in-command time including 20 hours cross-country pilot-in-command flight time; and
(amended 2000/09/01; previous version)

(b) an applicant who holds a Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplane or a Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplane issued by a contracting state other than Canada, shall have completed 65 hours of commercial pilot flight training in aeroplanes consisting of a minimum of:
(amended 2000/09/01; previous version)

(i) 35 hours dual instruction flight time, under the direction and supervision of the holder of a Flight Instructor Rating - Aeroplane, including:
(amended 2000/09/01; previous version)

(A) 5 hours night, including a minimum of 2 hours of cross-country flight time;

(B) 5 hours cross-country, which may include the cross-country experience from (A) above; and

(C) 20 hours of instrument flight time in addition to the experience stated in (A) and (B) above. A maximum 10 hours of the 20 hours may be conducted on an approved aeroplane simulator or flight training device.
(amended 1998/09/01; previous version)

(ii) 30 hours solo flight time including:

(A) 25 hours solo flight time emphasizing the improvement of general flying skills of the applicant which shall include a cross-country flight to a point of a minimum of 300 nautical mile radius from the point of departure and shall include a minimum of 3 landings at points other than that of departure, and

(B) 5 hours solo flight time by night during which a minimum of 10 takeoffs, circuits and landings were completed.

(5) Skill

Within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the licence, an applicant shall successfully complete a flight test to the standard outlined in the Flight Test Standard Private and Commercial Pilot Licences - Aeroplanes (TP2655E).
(amended 1999/03/01; previous version)

(6) Restricted Licence - Daylight Flying

(a) Where an applicant has not completed the night flight time requirements the licence shall be issued restricted to daylight flying and the total dual instruction flight time and solo flight time requirements for the issue of the licence shall be met.

(b) Where an applicant completes the night flight time requirements, the restriction shall be removed.

(c) Where an applicant holds a pilot licence, helicopter valid for night flying, the night flight time experience may be reduced to 5 hours pilot flight time which shall include:

(i) 2 hours dual night flight time,

(ii) 1 hour solo night flight time, and

(iii) 1 hour dual instrument flight time.

(7) Credits

(a) Knowledge

(i) An applicant who holds a Commercial Pilot Licence - Helicopter, or higher, shall, when applying for the issue of a Commercial Pilot Licence - Aeroplane be credited with 20 hours of the 40 hour ground school instruction requirement.
(amended 1999/03/01; previous version)

(ii) An applicant who holds a Commercial Pilot Licence - Helicopter or higher, shall, in lieu of completing the written examination Commercial Pilot - Aeroplane (CPAER), obtain a minimum of 60% in the written examination Commercial Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) - Alternate Category (CARAC).
(amended 1999/03/01; previous version)

(b) Experience

Where an applicant holds a pilot permit or licence in another aircraft category, flight time credits may be claimed as follows:

[bizjet_mania]

I believe the 35 hours is an addition to the 17, but you will have no problem getting that since you require 3 hours dual cross country for your commercial and if you do your IFR, night and multi you should have about that when you're done.

[chipmunk]

The 35 hours dual required for the Commercial must be used towards improving your skills towards the CPL. It is separate from the 17 dual for the PPL.

I know dual hours towards the CPL transfer from country to country in at least some cases - my situation was fairly straight forward as it was from US to Canada, and one of my school's students transferred some time from Sri Lanka, however I suggest checking with your prospective school's CFI.

[EchoNovemberAlpha]

Thank a ton folks...in particular rdy4immidiate.
That was a vivid description!

I understand it.

Can anyone tell me what's a Group 1 instrument rating...? and how does it differ from other groups?...is it only related to Privileges? ..what are the requirements/training needs for each...?

[Tango01]

There are 4 groups of IR.

1-Group 1: For all aeroplanes where the flight test was conducted in a multi-engine aeroplane;

2-Group 2: For all single- engine aeroplanes and multi-engine centre line thrust aeroplanes, where the flight test was conducted in a multi-engine centre line thrust aeroplane;

3- Group 3: For all single- engine aeroplanes where the flight test was conducted in a single- engine aeroplane;

4-Group 4: For helicopters.


So essentially as a fixed wing pilot, holding a Group 1 allows you to also operate Group 2 and 3. If you have a group 2 (Ie;C-337) then you may operate singles as well, but are restricted to centre line thrust. If you have a Group 3, then you're only good for SE IFR.

[EchoNovemberAlpha]

Gotcha.
The Group 1 sure makes more sense…widens your horizon…
Thanks

[EchoNovemberAlpha]

By the way, heard there are also 4 types/groups of instructor ratings…
What are the major differences between them regards privileges of each?
Can a group 4 instructor train for MIFR?

[LostinRotation]

Class 4 has all the privileges of a class 3, but class 4 requires a supervising instructor.
Class 4 also has the ability to teach IFR provided they hold a current IFR rating.
Class 4 also has the ability to teach Multi, provided they have 50 hours on type.

Class 3 = class 4 without supervision and can be a CFI provided there is no higher class instructor working at the school I believe.

Class 2 = Class 3 pretty much

Class 1 has the ability to teach and train students to become instructors

-=0=LIR=0=-

[Right Seat Captain]

Close,

Class 4, an instructor that must be supervised by either a Class 2 or a Class 1. Essentially it is probationary.

Class 3, supervision no longer required. Can freelance. Cannot be a Chief Flying Instructor (CFI) of a school if there is more than himself working (ie multiple instructors)

Class 2, can supervise Class 4s, and can be a CFI of a school.

Class 1, same as the class 2, but also can teach someone to be an instructor.

In all cases, one can teach IFR if one holds an instrument rating. Once can teach multi engine if they have 50 hours of multi engine.

To move up in the classes from 4 to 1, it is based on a combination of hours of instructing, number of students you send solo, and the number of students you recommend for a flight test. Roughly,

To get a Class 3 you need 100 hours of instructing, 3 students sent solo, and 3 successful recommendations for a flight test.

To get a Class 2 you need 500 hours of instructing, and 10 recommendations for a flight test in total.

To get a Class 1, you need 750 hours of instructing and 10 recommendations for a flight test in total.

To get a class 2 and 1, you must also do a flight test for each, as well as the initial class 4.

[LostinRotation]

I stand corrected

After a 32 hour day I'm surprised I remembered most of it
Just got the CFI info wrong... damn there goes my chances at running the school ! Woo Hoo !

But seriously, tnx for the correction

-=0=LIR=0=-

[BTD]

I was pretty sure that to teach multi you needed.

50 hrs multi. Not 50 hrs multi on type.

Am I wrong?

[BTD]

Of which 10 is on type.

[Right Seat Captain]

BTD, correct. 50 hours multi, 10 on type.

[BTD]

Thx RSC

[Pugster]

And just to make it more confusing...

To teach IFR on a multi you don't need 50 Multi or 10 on type, just a multi and an IFR.

[EchoNovemberAlpha]

How is flight time recorded in the Pilot log book (with regards who gets the PIC time) during a Flight test for PPL/CPL,and for the Instructor rating..?
any CAR link for this one....?
Also, how do you classify/differentiate solo & PIC on Multi's, before AND after the MIFR training?

[Ralliart]

During the flight test, the student is the PIC and the examiner logs nothing, except a few hundred bucks in the pocket!

[TC Guy]

And just to make it more confusing...

To teach IFR on a multi you don't need 50 Multi or 10 on type, just a multi and an IFR.

Darn near correct... but there are some additional requirements:

CARs 425.21(9)

"A person who conducts flight training toward the issuance of an instrument rating shall be the holder of a Commercial Pilot Licence or an Airline Transport Pilot Licence and have:

(a) an instrument rating; and either

(b) a flight instructor rating; or

(c) experience of not less than 500 hours pilot-in-command flight time, and:

(i) not less than 100 hours shall be on the applicable aircraft group, and

(ii) in the case of Group I aircraft, not less than 10 hours shall be on the type of multi-engine aeroplane used for the training."

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#425_21

..hope that helps!

[TC Guy]

During the flight test, the student is the PIC and the examiner logs nothing, except a few hundred bucks in the pocket!

That is the industry standard, but there is no standing rule, except that it is TC policy that any TC examiner shall not act as PIC on a flight test.

An industry examiner could elect to tell the candidate to log the flight test as dual (and the examiner would log it as PIC) but that is usually NOT done. The examiners generally have so much time they really don't care about the extra 1.4 hours. I used to keep track of flight tests in my log book for strictly record keeping purposes.

[Cat Driver]

Speaking of training requirements and flight tests done by a TC inspector.

Why does TC require the teacher to do full feathering and restart of engines in flight during training for the multi engine rating, but I have never heard of a TC inspector asking for a full feather and restart in flight during the ride for the rating?

Cat

[wha happen]

so as long as you hold an instructor rating, you can teach ifr. that makes no sense at all. but ill take it. and of course the 500 tt

[TC Guy]

Speaking of training requirements and flight tests done by a TC inspector.

Why does TC require the teacher to do full feathering and restart of engines in flight during training for the multi engine rating, but I have never heard of a TC inspector asking for a full feather and restart in flight during the ride for the rating?

Cat

Excellent question.

The short answer is that it used to be an option in the pre-April 2005 multi-engine flight test guide. An option no examiner I have ever heard of (including myself) ever exercised. Why? Asking a candidate to intentionally shut down an engine on an aircraft you don't know the maintenance history of... could be exciting. The instructor must provide a written declaration (on the letter of recommendation) that they HAVE done it in training.

The current (post-April 2005) standard is that an intentional engine shut down is simulated. This is a marked item-- one that must be completed on every multi-engine flight test. An actual full-feather shutdown is no longer listed as an emergency exercise.

Link:
http://tcinfo/civilaviation/general/flt ... /ex11a.htm

Very few multi-engine examinations are done by TC examiners-- most (except for monitoring rides) are done by industry.

Hope this helps.

-Guy

[TC Guy]

so as long as you hold an instructor rating, you can teach ifr. that makes no sense at all. but ill take it. and of course the 500 tt

How do you think that the instructors build the 50 hours of multi-engine time in order to teach the multi-engine rating?

There is some logic to this game.

Good logic? debatable.

-Guy

[sakism]

so as long as you hold an instructor rating, you can teach ifr. that makes no sense at all. but ill take it. and of course the 500 tt

Don't need 500 PIC unless you don't hold an instructor rating. An instructor can teach IFR the moment he gets his instructor rating (provided that he has an IFR rating).