Encore AME jobs

[azimuthaviation]

So seriously, besides your attempt to ridicule my comparison, are you saying the encore offer is reasonable?

Ive never seen any offer from Encore so I cant say. But if they offered me in the low 20's I personally would say no because its too low. If they offered me a job and asked what I thought I was worth per hour it would be significantly higher. They could either hire me or tell me to f*** off. Their operation will succeed without me and I will do fine in my life without them. They dont need me, I dont need them, so why do you think they owe it to me to offer me anything?

[Pat Richard]

Ok, slow it up a bit, lol. "offer", as in what they are purported to be offering by what an informed few have revealed here.

Dont know where you got that I figure they owe you anything.
We were discussing/commenting how poor most of us think the wage scale is, not will encore succeed with/without
Azimuthaviation or if they should offer him employment.

[azimuthaviation]

I think AME's are low paid too. I also think gas prices are too high. But I'm not going to move to Iran where gas in 8 cents a liter and Im not going to become a HD mechanic where the wages are better either. Does it anger me that the wage scale for an AME is low because too many people are willing to accept the lower wage and thereby drive down the rate? Sure. Are a lot of other AME's upset that I work for the typical AME wage and therby help drive down their rate? Probably. But Im not really interested in their problems and theyre not interested in mine. So what pulpit can you and I stand on to complain? Its like complaining about the gridlock on your commute home. youre not stuck in traffic, you are traffic.

[Donald]

You guys figure that once they are successful at running Encore with AME's on the "B" scale, they will start putting downward pressure on the mainline AME's wages?

[seamus]

Hey "azimuthaviation" - nobody was slagging Westjet here, this tread is not about them but their new half-baked spin off . BTW even the hard-core WJ engineers have serious doubts about this new venture, they see it as a treat to whatever perks they've manged to get and keep over the years.

Back to subject at hand, 21something/hour was a SHIT wage 10 years ago!!! So now we're in 2013 - combined inflation rate alone for the past decade is over 20% add to that another 10% of just the most basic rate increase and we should be looking at 28$/hour as a starting AME salary anywhere today. The very fact the so called 'reputable' employers out there are still offering such pathetic AME wages is a true testament of where this industry is headed. Not only have the rates stopped but in many cases they are actually regressing. Even the minimum wage has gone up and yet the AME salaries are still were they were years ago.

[Pat Richard]

21something/hour was a SHIT wage 10 years ago!!! So now we're in 2013 - combined inflation rate alone for the past decade is over 20% add to that another 10% of just the most basic rate increase and we should be looking at 28$/hour as a starting AME salary anywhere today. The very fact the so called 'reputable' employers out there are still offering such pathetic AME wages is a true testament of where this industry is headed. Not only have the rates stopped but in many cases they are actually regressing. Even the minimum wage has gone up and yet the AME salaries are still were they were years ago.

+1

Before I read the info here, I was thinking they would be offering a starting wage in that range, just for the reason that they are a big, successful, and reputable company. Turns out they are more like the wal mart of aviation.

The wage that people are saying they are being offered is, to me anyway, a working poverty wage. I have a family member who is stuck at the low end(unskilled labor) of the encore wage, and they are constantly struggling financially, even though they live a minimalistic lifestyle and have zero credit debt. I think most would struggle.
The bigger concern to me is why a AME would demean themselves and accept that kind of money, because by doing that they drag the rest of us down. Other places will be watching, and will attempt to follow suit if they are successful, and like Seamus says, the regression will continue.

Honestly, for that kind of money one would be wiser to start over in another trade as an apprentice. The money is pretty close.

[jetsetfly]

You guys figure that once they are successful at running Encore with AME's on the "B" scale, they will start putting downward pressure on the mainline AME's wages?


Trust me they will not be touching mainline engineers salaries as the negotations happend just over a year ago and VP signed off to it ....as for encore i wish they would have let WJ Mainline deal with the maintenance aspect of it but TC does not allow it as it has to be a different AMO but hopefully they will rethink on the wages part as its very tough in todays world to survive on such wages

[Pat Richard]

What's rouge doing in that respect? would they not be in the same position as encore?

I haven't heard a single thing on the maintenance side.

[Donald]

Trust me they will not be touching mainline engineers salaries as the negotations happend just over a year ago and VP signed off to

GS wants to cut $100M in costs and you think AME's are untouchable? When does the current contract end for mainline?

[bombardierfixer]

The wages are not written in stone. Encore was designed on a business case of low cost. If they cannot get qualified individuals to accept these jobs then they are going to be re-evaluated. If they have a line a mile long to get in, well I guess the wages are acceptable. The message was made loud and clear about the fact it may be hard to attract people, but Encore is going to have a fight on its hands when it gets rolling so every penny counts.

As for mainline. Down ward pressure will not be a issue when it comes to wages, I could see a different strategy come into play where bonuses and performance based metrics are used as opposed to automatic yearly increases. But unless there is a huge downturn in air travel or 911 times a thousand WJ is going to do just fine. Our board and EVP like em or hate em are making us money and they seem to be out front making good choices.

I'm turtled now, kick away.

[bombardierfixer]

Trust me they will not be touching mainline engineers salaries as the negotations happend just over a year ago and VP signed off to

GS wants to cut $100M in costs and you think AME's are untouchable? When does the current contract end for mainline?

No contract, its a MOA. Read previous post.

[conehead]

Just for comparison;


 Post subject: AME M1 (Orillia Aviation)Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013
Location: Calgary AB, USA, Argentina
Date:22 February 2013
Position:AME M1
Company Name:Orillia Aviation
Contact Person:Jeff
Street Address:6422 Bluebird St.
City:Orillia
Province:Ontario
Country:Canada
Web address: http://www.orilliaaviation.ca
Email address: jeff@orilliaaviation.ca
Phone number:705-325-6153
Fax number:705-325-6377
Send Resume By:Email
Aircraft Types:Single Engine Cessna, Navajo,DHC-2,PA-23

Job Description:
M1 AME required to work on single engine Cessna, Beaver, Navajo, PA-23. Sheet metal and float plane experiance an asset. Must have good work ethic and able to work as a team.

Salary:$18-$21
Closing Date:20 March 2013

[fixnfly]

Just for comparison;


 Post subject: AME M1 (Orillia Aviation)Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013
Location: Calgary AB, USA, Argentina
Date:22 February 2013
Position:AME M1
Company Name:Orillia Aviation
Contact Person:Jeff
Street Address:6422 Bluebird St.
City:Orillia
Province:Ontario
Country:Canada
Web address: http://www.orilliaaviation.ca
Email address: jeff@orilliaaviation.ca
Phone number:705-325-6153
Fax number:705-325-6377
Send Resume By:Email
Aircraft Types:Single Engine Cessna, Navajo,DHC-2,PA-23

Job Description:
M1 AME required to work on single engine Cessna, Beaver, Navajo, PA-23. Sheet metal and float plane experiance an asset. Must have good work ethic and able to work as a team.

Salary:$18-$21
Closing Date:20 March 2013

Yea I saw that posting too. Im pretty sure that the salary listed is a mistake.

[jetsetfly]

Interesting Article Regarding Encore


Two companies, one culture
Canadian Skies chats with WestJet CEO Gregg Saretsky
Monday February 25th 2013 - by Gary Watson


WestJet is known as a company that prides itself on its corporate culture. There is little doubt that Gregg Saretsky – president, CEO and owner – is a believer. He has proudly promoted the WestJet culture since he joined the company in 2009. “Owner” is a moniker he relishes as much as the other two titles on his business card.

One of Saretsky’s goals is to make WestJet one of the world’s top five airlines. Size has nothing to do with it, he said. Instead, he listed five key elements necessary to attain this goal: profitability; operational reliability; completion factor and on time performance; guest experience; and shareholder return on investment capital.

WestJet’s one-aircraft-type, low-cost, non-union structure has been incredibly successful over the past 17 years. A fleet of 100 Boeing 737-600, -700 and -800 series aircraft has delivered excellent reliability and lower operating costs for the airline.

During the last six months of 2012, the carrier broke all previous load-factor levels and recorded a single-day high of 57,464 passengers on Dec. 21. The company flew 17.4 million people in 2012, an increase of 8.6 per cent over 2011. Last year, WestJet had 100,000 applications for 1,500 jobs.

Big changes are on the horizon, however, as the company breaks out of its original mould by adding additional aircraft types to its business model. Canadian Skies sat down with Saretsky early in 2013 to discuss his plans for implementing Bombardier Q400 regional aircraft into WestJet.

ENCORE PERFORMANCE
WestJet Encore (Encore) is WestJet’s new regional airline. It will operate as a separate company with its own operating certificate and employees.

Just before Christmas, the airline advertised for pilots to crew its new Bombardier Q400 aircraft. In an uncommon move, salaries were also disclosed: captain, $68 per hour, and first officer, $38 per hour, with a guaranteed minimum of 70 hours per month.

“We had a lot of applications,” said Saretsky. “In the first year, we are going to have seven aircraft, so we will need just less than 100 pilots. This call went out at a slow point in time when most people were away from work, but still we had far more applications than I expected. We wanted to be very up front with salaries, much like when WestJet started in 1996. We are starting Encore to be Canada's low-cost regional airline service, serving communities that are dying for reasonably-priced air fares.

“You have to have a cost structure that affords you the opportunity to offer low fares,” Saretsky continued. “We had no problem in 1996 attracting qualified pilots to fly 737s, and from early experience we will have no problem attracting pilots for these beautiful new Q400s. The unique aspect, and perhaps one of the reasons why we may be very successful in hiring pilots at lower wages, is we are guaranteeing them a career path into WestJet; their career track can lead them right onto the 737 or anything else we might fly.

“If they sign up with Porter, or Jazz, or Central Mountain Air, or Bearskin, or anybody else, there is no flow-through guaranteed to any other jet flying in Canada,” said Saretsky. “Getting on with Jazz does not get you a job at Air Canada. Getting on with Encore guarantees you the eventual chance at a jet position with WestJet. This is a very attractive career path for young pilots.”

WestJet does not have a union, and its corporate philosophy encourages employees to switch jobs within the company. “One of the aspects that make us a stronger company is people can get experience in a multiplicity of work environments,” explained Saretsky. “We will take a 10-year CSA [customer service agent] and move them to the same wage on the flight attendant pay scale, at maybe the seven or eight year level. They don't have to start on the first step. We do this in order to encourage our people to move from being flight attendants to an airport position, or from the call centre to the airport or to inflight. It is a disincentive if they have to take a huge pay cut.”

WestJet is still finalizing its people policies at Encore and how they will mesh with the mainline operation. “If we have, for instance, a three-year flight attendant at WestJet who wants to become a flight attendant at Encore, we haven't yet finalized if they would start at the very first step or directly across, which is my preference. It’s more expensive for us to do what I am proposing, but I would like to facilitate the transfer of people between the two operations. We just haven't finalized all the policies for how that will actually happen.”

Another unique program will be the use of WestJet “ambassadors” – experienced pilots and flight attendants who will fly on their days off as supernumerary crew members on Encore flights. This will provide the new, generally less-experienced crews with operational and cultural mentoring. At the same time, a WestJet pilot riding in the Q400 jump seat will learn how the aircraft handles in comparison to the B-737.

“We are trying to be completely transparent between the two organizations,” emphasized Saretsky. “This is one of the ways I feel we can facilitate the ‘two companies – one culture’ aspect. I think it would be great if we could get our flight attendants from both companies flying in each other’s aircraft, sharing stories and experiences to further meld the two companies and ensure barriers are broken down.”

Uniforms will be very similar to the existing WestJet garb, with small differences to differentiate the companies.

Maintenance will also be separate between the two companies, but with shared responsibilities depending on the location. If Encore is flying in and out of a small airport where WestJet has no base, a local AME would be hired specifically to carry out maintenance on the Q400. If the airport has an established WestJet base, such as Winnipeg, with a mix of jets and turbo-props, the maintenance staff would be comprised of AMEs with both Q400 and B-737 endorsements and experience. At large bases such as Calgary, there will be separate maintenance facilities with no cross-over.[b] AMEs who were hired with Q400 expertise will also have an opportunity to expand their qualifications with a B-737 course, depending where they are located.[/b]

A new 40,000-square-foot hangar is being planned for Calgary, just east of the existing hangar complex, and it will house two Q400s. The building will consume the existing “purple” parking lot, but WestJet has secured additional parking space just to the north. The main maintenance hangar in Calgary will be built in three phases, with a final capacity of six Q-400s, offices, maintenance shops, stores and a Q400 cabin trainer.

Culture is at the forefront at WestJet. “We want to look at Encore as an incubator, to the extent that as we have gotten bigger we have become a little less entrepreneurial. There is a real sense of this spirit coming into Encore, as we are getting to build it from the ground up, and try out some new technologies, which is easier to do on a small fleet. We are also going to use new business practices and new technology in our operations control centre and crew scheduling system. If they work out, we can bring them over to WestJet,” said Saretsky.

Under Transport Canada rules, operational control and crew scheduling must be separate. Encore requires a chief pilot, VP of technical services, VP of flight ops and other senior staff, but has temporarily filled those positions with WestJet employees. The permanent positions will be filled from within WestJet and from outside the company. The aircraft will be basic Q400s in WestJet colours equipped to conform with the low-cost concept, with stage lengths averaging 350 miles. Profit sharing will be combined with the entire WestJet corporate structure parent as a publically-listed corporation. All of the profits from both entities will go into one pool and be distributed equally amongst all WestJet and Encore employees. The owner performance portion will be separate for each entity. Encore will not have its own stock.

“It is a very exciting time in the evolution of WestJet; there is a lot of excitement in Canadian communities,” said Saretsky. Thirty-two communities have petitioned Encore for service, with the first aircraft arriving in June. The momentum and the excitement are building.

On Feb. 11, WestJet began announcing its first Encore routes with the new Q400s. At the time of writing, confirmed destinations included Fort St. John, Nanaimo, Victoria and Vancouver in B.C., as well as Calgary. More cities were expected to be announced over the coming months.

“I am pretty confident that Canadians will not be disappointed with what they get with Encore,” concluded Saretsky.

[seamus]

Interesting article, main theme is definitely the "low-cost" philosophy...

Also, of the many 'thousands' kicking the door down, trying to get a job at WJ very few will be engineers hoping for a job at their new 'low-cost' division. Anyways, what does the wage of low 20s/hour translate into when living in Calgary ? that must be below the poverty line in that part of the country

One thing is for sure; those that do sign on the dotted line should have been well aware of what they're getting into. However if those people somehow believe that the 'low-cost' motto will not apply to their salaries... well that's just plain funny.

[Pat Richard]

Just for comparison;


 Post subject: AME M1 (Orillia Aviation)Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013
Location: Calgary AB, USA, Argentina
Date:22 February 2013
Position:AME M1
Company Name:Orillia Aviation
Contact Person:Jeff
Street Address:6422 Bluebird St.
City:Orillia
Province:Ontario
Country:Canada
Web address: http://www.orilliaaviation.ca
Email address: jeff@orilliaaviation.ca
Phone number:705-325-6153
Fax number:705-325-6377
Send Resume By:Email
Aircraft Types:Single Engine Cessna, Navajo,DHC-2,PA-23

Job Description:
M1 AME required to work on single engine Cessna, Beaver, Navajo, PA-23. Sheet metal and float plane experiance an asset. Must have good work ethic and able to work as a team.

Salary:$18-$21
Closing Date:20 March 2013

Looks like he wants a guy to do both M and S work, for 18-21 a/hr, so you would be working as "as a team", LOL.

[johnkruk]

The way this is gonna hurt the main line AME's the most is when the compnay starts doing lease returns on the 737's and laying off main line guys! The Q400 can do a lot of the current work the 737 does!!! Its already been announced they are converting some of the smaller out bases to encore and it will put the guys there out of a job, but even in the main bases the Q400 can do a lot of the work that goes through them and its just a matter of time before encore will start to eat away at main line flying, the company has to be really careful how they do this!!!!!!

[brownbear]

like Jazz that must be an opening scale placement. Then each year up to year 10 it increases. They will get junior AMEs who are mid 20's now and then work their way up. 10 plus year experienced AMEs would have to take a huge pay cut and re-start their ladder climb to get back to their current pay levels. That's the way it is now for Jazz.

We have a shortage of experienced AMEs in the industry. Why? Cause they figured out it's a shit industry and isn't going to improve, its only going to get worse. And when there isn't enough Canadians for the jobs, the door will open for immigrants who will work for less.

[Pat Richard]

I've talked to 2 guys, both experienced AME's who have been through the phone interview, and they say $24 an hour is the max. The interviewers opine that it is because it's a "regional airline". I guess regional passengers are worth less??

Needless to say, they both turned it down. One guy actually has the q400 endorsement, and they still wouldn't offer higher.

I don't know how well they are doing with recruiting, but Im concerned there are dummies out there taking this shit.

[brownbear]

24 has got to be the top scale placement on hire. no way the scale ends there. But hey I could be wrong. That is still shit wages.

Lots of "airlines" regardless of experience want to start their new employees at year 1 on a ten year scale.

Even Jazz has guys end at year 10 well over 30 an hour. Plus add on crew chief and they are mid thirties or more.

i believe they are going to get newly licenced AMEs who the industry pays 22-24 already. Then they will slowly go up the scale.

If the scale ends at 24 it will be a revolving door of AMEs with training costs through the roof. So there is no way it ends at year 10 at 24.

[Valkyrie_XB70]

$24.00 / hour is probably the starting engineer wage. I'd be more interested to find out what the jump is after you are given aca. Also I'm curious how long it would be to get aca.

[ameguy721]

ACA is an extra 7%. So if you were at the top of their scale ($24.57) it would be another $1.72 for a "grand" total of $26.29/hour.

I was told that if I was on the first course (starting March 11) I would get an ACA immediately (within a week or 2 of the course finishing). Otherwise, they are making no promises as to when/if ACA's will be issued.

[NeverBlue]

ACA is an extra 7%. So if you were at the top of their scale ($24.57) it would be another $1.72 for a "grand" total of $26.29/hour.

Again...I believe this is the top wage in Canada for a "starting wage" at any large airline.

I pretty sure it's more than Air Canada and Jazz.
Can anyone rebut?

a lot of you believe this is not adequate...and perhaps not...but it is what it is and has not changed ever in my experience.

This is what you make if you want to start at an airline in Canada...it's nothing new

If I was out of work and I would gladly take it...it beats UI...and there's a better oportunity to advance being in at the beginning.

Pat Richard...I've heard you complain and complain about the wages and conditions for years...yet still here you are...WHY?

I thought you'd left long ago for welding or water truck driving or diesel mechanic or working on cars in your driveway...all of which you have claimed are better...
In the amount of time you've been spouting off on this site you could have earned certificates in at least three of these other trades you been praising...why haven't you done that????

Who's the "dummy" now??

[azimuthaviation]

Pat Richard...I've heard you complain and complain about the wages and conditions for years...yet still here you are...WHY?

Its a lot easier to talk about how bad it is at your job on here, its a lot harder to talk with your feet, and walk away from that job. Your sticking around only serves to substaniate the employers claim that they pay fair wages and employees are willing to work for that. I guess that makes you part of the problem does it not?

[Pat Richard]

Azimuth - you have no clue what I make, just that, like many others in this thread, I think the encore wage is a JOKE that only DUMMIES would take, and only management would endorse. I won't sign aircraft for that, you said you won't, and several here also won't, so isn't that acting against low wages?
There are several others on this thread making the same observations, if you hadn't noticed, so is this a "E" thing to be ignoring them and focusing on a certain individual regardless?
Looks like maybe a little too much focus on personal dislike, even though I know none of you personally, instead of on the issue.

But if you're some POS manager, the idea of getting an AME to sign out work for under $25 a/hr is only a issue in a practical sense(hear a lot of GFY).The concept to them sounds wonderful.
No wonder the ones who generally make management are the one's that are missed the least when pulled from the floor... takes a certain type of person...


'nuff said