Canjet going under (again)?

[gonnabeapilot]

Just curious who's careers are being jeopardized?? Is it those at Air Canada? The company that just reported it's best annual results in years and plans to hire a large group of pilots in the coming years? Is it those at WestJet?? The company that just reported record profits, is continuing to hire at its mainline and plans to hire hundreds more for its newly created regional?? Is it those at Canadian North?? As far as I know, they're making money and hiring pilots now too. Perhaps its those at Jazz? Another company that is making money and continuing to hire pilots. Who knows what's going on at Porter financially, but as far as I know, they're still hiring pilots too and I doubt you could argue Sunwing and Canjet have any real impact on their business. In fact, the only pilots who have come close to having their careers jeopardized by all of this foreign pilot stuff seems to be the group of pilots at Air Transat. And even there, the company is back in the black and only a small number have been laid off in the process. I would also argue that as much as some people love to blame Sunwing for Transat's woes the fact that WestJet has a booming WestJet Vacations division thanks to its previous relationship with Transat probably has just as much to do with Transat's lost revenue as Sunwing. So really, the only people who's careers are in jeopardy are the ones currently working for Canjet and the only reason for it is thanks to a competing bid from their fellow Canadian aviators at Transat and not the foreign pilots. I don't know about you but I see an industry that is booming and is offering year-round, stable employment for thousands of Canadian pilots. Yes I have my issues with the numbers of foreign pilots that have been brought over and the way that they were brought here but as hard as I look, I can't seem to find this doomsday scenario that some seem to believe the foreign pilot scourge have brought to us....

[Gilles Hudicourt]

The careers that are being jeopardized, in addition to the 90 laid off ALPA members are those of the pilots who are not working for any of the companies you mentioned and whose careers are being obstructed by the presence in Canarda of 200+ foreign pilots that are illegally holding Canadian airline jobs. They include many who are stuck in overseas jobs including a Canadian 737NG captain who wrote to me yesterday.
In 2010 there were less than 100 foreign pilots in Canada. In 2011 it had risen to almost 200. In 2013 it exceeded 250. What will it be in 2020 if we sit on our asses and do nothing?

[YHZGOOSE]

Just curious who's careers are being jeopardized?? Is it those at Air Canada? The company that just reported it's best annual results in years and plans to hire a large group of pilots in the coming years? Is it those at WestJet?? The company that just reported record profits, is continuing to hire at its mainline and plans to hire hundreds more for its newly created regional?? Is it those at Canadian North?? As far as I know, they're making money and hiring pilots now too. Perhaps its those at Jazz? Another company that is making money and continuing to hire pilots. Who knows what's going on at Porter financially, but as far as I know, they're still hiring pilots too and I doubt you could argue Sunwing and Canjet have any real impact on their business. In fact, the only pilots who have come close to having their careers jeopardized by all of this foreign pilot stuff seems to be the group of pilots at Air Transat. And even there, the company is back in the black and only a small number have been laid off in the process. I would also argue that as much as some people love to blame Sunwing for Transat's woes the fact that WestJet has a booming WestJet Vacations division thanks to its previous relationship with Transat probably has just as much to do with Transat's lost revenue as Sunwing. So really, the only people who's careers are in jeopardy are the ones currently working for Canjet and the only reason for it is thanks to a competing bid from their fellow Canadian aviators at Transat and not the foreign pilots. I don't know about you but I see an industry that is booming and is offering year-round, stable employment for thousands of Canadian pilots. Yes I have my issues with the numbers of foreign pilots that have been brought over and the way that they were brought here but as hard as I look, I can't seem to find this doomsday scenario that some seem to believe the foreign pilot scourge have brought to us....

Good points and very acurate.

[YHZGOOSE]

[quote="Gilles Hudicourt"]The careers that are being jeopardized, in addition to the 90 laid off ALPA members are those of the pilots who are not working for any of the companies you mentioned and whose careers are being obstructed by the presence in Canarda of 200+ foreign pilots that are illegally holding Canadian airline jobs. They include many who are stuck in overseas jobs including a Canadian 737NG captain who wrote to me yesterday.
In 2010 there were less than 100 foreign pilots in Canada. In 2011 it had risen to almost 200. In 2013 it exceeded 250. What will it be in 2020 if we sit on our asses and do nothing?[/quote

Remind me to send you a bottle of scotch so you can celebrate the loss of my job Gilles.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Sunwing which only had 10 aircraft and 150 pilots flooded the market with 29 aircraft that they were only able to crew thanks to the use of about 250 foreign pilots.

Despite using Canjet to try to counter such an assault Transat lost millions.

And you direct your anger at me?

What was Transat to do? Get rid of it's widebodies and play by the same rules as Sunwing using Canjet?

Or perhaps we should declare that our wide body operations in the summer are "seasonal" and lay our pilots off and then replace them with type rated A330 pilots from Thomson using the TFW in the summer?

The cancer is an airline that thinks it can operate accordion fleets using foreign crews to allow seasonal expansion that is beyond what is feasible with local crews. Direct your anger at that. Or like me, try to do something about it.

[complexintentions]

Just curious who's careers are being jeopardized?? Is it those at Air Canada? The company that just reported it's best annual results in years and plans to hire a large group of pilots in the coming years? Is it those at WestJet?? The company that just reported record profits, is continuing to hire at its mainline and plans to hire hundreds more for its newly created regional?? Is it those at Canadian North?? As far as I know, they're making money and hiring pilots now too. Perhaps its those at Jazz? Another company that is making money and continuing to hire pilots. Who knows what's going on at Porter financially, but as far as I know, they're still hiring pilots too and I doubt you could argue Sunwing and Canjet have any real impact on their business. In fact, the only pilots who have come close to having their careers jeopardized by all of this foreign pilot stuff seems to be the group of pilots at Air Transat. And even there, the company is back in the black and only a small number have been laid off in the process. I would also argue that as much as some people love to blame Sunwing for Transat's woes the fact that WestJet has a booming WestJet Vacations division thanks to its previous relationship with Transat probably has just as much to do with Transat's lost revenue as Sunwing. So really, the only people who's careers are in jeopardy are the ones currently working for Canjet and the only reason for it is thanks to a competing bid from their fellow Canadian aviators at Transat and not the foreign pilots. I don't know about you but I see an industry that is booming and is offering year-round, stable employment for thousands of Canadian pilots. Yes I have my issues with the numbers of foreign pilots that have been brought over and the way that they were brought here but as hard as I look, I can't seem to find this doomsday scenario that some seem to believe the foreign pilot scourge have brought to us....

You gotta be kidding me. Air Canada and WestJet creating McJobs with outfits like SkyRegional/Rouge/Encore is hardly indicative of a healthy industry. And still, you attack someone trying to prevent the use of cheap labour? When a very cogent argument has been made that such use is actually illegal? That the very government entities entrusted with protecting its citizenry is complicit in the situation?

I'm kinda at the point where I feel Canadians are just getting what they deserve now, simply due to their own ignorance. The high-paying jobs are being quietly removed at the same time the cost of living is being rapidly inflated. But hey, no doomsday talk, right?

[SplitS]

Sorry for you guys at Canjet but listen to Gilles - his assessment is not only bang on but it is a wake up call for those of you clueless to what these companies have been up to. Canjet and Sunwing represent cancers for this industry - they must be removed with the utmost hostility.

They have continued and amplified the downward spiral are industry is victim to - you bemoan the loss of your job but if those 2 sh*t companies weren't allowed to continue with their illegal unfair practices you'd have a BETTER and more SECURE job at a Canadian company with Canadian pilots - not a insecure job at Canadian-in-name-only company. And If there are Mcjobs at AC now its thanks to these two.

Dont get angry at Gilles or I - we WANT you to have a better job (Gilles been actively fighting for all Canadian pilots)... you're just not seeing the big picture...

[toelessjoe]

Over 6000+ hours, loads of two crew, glass time. Little bit of heavy time. Had friends AND family members working at a certain east coast carrier who shall remain nameless walk my resume in (crew members from both seats of the aircraft), loads of positive references. All this back in the day when the sign at YHZ proudly announced "We're from here!". (I am too, I even type with a funny accent and everything ). Nothing. Problem with my resume? Not likely. Bad attitude? F*%k off (Just kidding). Type rated foreigners? Hmmmmm.....maybe Gilles is onto something.

Cheers,


- Toeless

[AFIRS]

Splits- Maybe you don't see the BIG picture. Attitudes like yours are all to common in this "profession" and a bigger cancer on this industry then anything.

I'm sure after all of Gilles exceptionally hard work that has led to a solid respectable reputation, doesn't appreciate you speaking for him/ including his name in your statement. All very predictable with your narrow line of sight though. AC's aptitude and psych test pull it off again I suppose....

Your doing amazing work Gilles! What can I do to help?

[YHZGOOSE]

Despite using Canjet to try to counter such an assault Transat lost millions.

And you direct your anger at me?

What was Transat to do? Get rid of it's widebodies and play by the same rules as Sunwing using Canjet?

WE shall see Gilles. We shall see. And the way I see it the situation with TS losing millions has nothing to do with CJ whatsoever. The industry has changed, and to blame SWG or CJ is not addressing the big picuture.

I'm not going to quit CJ because some foreign guy is in the right seat. That foreign guy flies the aircraft on his own turf in his own country when it goes back to Europe. I'm ex military, and CJ is my 3rd commercial job, so you are not speaking to some kid who came out to get the hours to eventually get a left seat. I've flown wide bodies and I've seen the glory days.

The times have changed and as someone posted earlier you can look at Air Canada and Westjet too because their '' NEW BORN'' babies are taking to the skies. Rouge, Encore and Sky Regional. None of them are paying what you make, nor will the industry ever make what you make again. That's past Gilles. This is here and now and as hard as it is to accept, it's not going to change. The corporations that run us are made up of a new breed and they will continue to pursue cost saving, even if it means foreign pilots or Canadian pilots at a lower wage. Air Canada's call centres are in India. It's a sign of the times.

I understand your own fear Gilles, you may be out of job yourself, who knows, stranger things have happend. I see you trying to protect your nest by going after SWG and CJ with the foreign pilot issue. And naturally you want to do whatever you can to survive and retain your job because that's what this is really all about. It's looking after number 1.

[complexintentions]

Hang on a sec. Aren't you just doing the same thing -"looking out for number 1"? Isn't that why you're defending the use of foreign pilots, because using them helps to save your company money and keep you employed? Besides, what do you care, you've "got yours", as long as the foreigner sits in the right seat, who cares, he's helping to protect your job.

The rest about industry change is just self-justification. The industry has changed, sure. But there's no "new breed" of corporation, they've always been greedy and underhanded. We get why you would defend the importation of cheap labour, fine. It benefits you. But the whole sermonizing about how it's inevitable is just a lie you've told yourself to make it through the last bit of your career.

Incidentally, I don't work for TS or even in Canada. Just a former resident who worked in the sorry mess of Canadian aviation and has a keen interest in what is currently unfolding. Currently left seat in a widebody, decided that I'd make my own "glory days" instead of lamenting them as lost.

[pacifique001]

Foreign pilots=shame. You're right!

But who is flying for XL France, Paris-Punta Cana with their 330s and TS pilots? MMMMMMH.....

XL France pilots, are they happy about that? Especially with the europe's economic crisis...

Just saying.... Oh! it's TS so it's not the same...Sorry...Disregard...

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Foreign pilots=shame. You're right!

But who is flying for XL France, Paris-Punta Cana with their 330s and TS pilots? MMMMMMH.....

XL France pilots, are they happy about that? Especially with the europe's economic crisis...

Just saying.... Oh! it's TS so it's not the same...Sorry...Disregard...

Are you a Frenchman Pacifique? Air France pilots are amongst the highest paid in the world. I think they know how to defend their own interest much better than us Canadians and don't need outside help.

[Takeoff OK]

Foreign pilots=shame. You're right!

But who is flying for XL France, Paris-Punta Cana with their 330s and TS pilots? MMMMMMH.....

XL France pilots, are they happy about that? Especially with the europe's economic crisis...

Just saying.... Oh! it's TS so it's not the same...Sorry...Disregard...

This is a completely valid point. I'm sure they are pissed, and with good reason. But wet leases are just a drop in the bucket when it comes to the foreign pilot issue.

[oh yeah baby]

This is not exactly the same story, XL and AT have no cross-ownership so they do not gain anything by sending pilots and/or aircraft at a reduce price to hurt competition (dumping) as opposition to TUI/Sunwing. Pilots might be pissed but this is a fair contract without any unfair competion.

Apple vs orange both are a round fruit but they taste different...

[OPEC6-Heavy]

Gilles,

Are you a Frenchman Pacifique? Air France pilots are amongst the highest paid in the world. I think they know how to defend their own interest much better than us Canadians and don't need outside help.

Air France just posted a 1.3 Billion Euro lose for 2012... Maybe high payed but as most French airlines, extremely inefficient.

oh yeah baby,

This is not exactly the same story, XL and AT have no cross-ownership so they do not gain anything by sending pilots and/or aircraft at a reduce price to hurt competition (dumping) as opposition to TUI/Sunwing.

You have to stop using this term Dumping, there is no dumping. No reduced aircraft pricing (as stated by CTA). Only SWG dictates commercial needs in Canada. Facts are in correct. What TS is doing with XL is the same as SWG, It's a wet-lease, simple as that. And of course TS gains something, it's called utilization of a 330 and pilots during a slow winter. Jesus.....

[pacifique001]

Yep Mr Gilles and I do not like to see you flying our flights with your 330's and see you blaming european pilots for flying in Canada like you do in France...it's just funny...

By the way I don't talk about AF, but XL. It's not the same! Like you in Canada with Air canada and Transat, it's not the same too!

Enjoy your Paris pairing!

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Yep Mr Gilles and I do not like to see you flying our flights with your 330's and see you blaming european pilots for flying in Canada like you do in France...it's just funny...

By the way I don't talk about AF, but XL. It's not the same! Like you in Canada with Air canada and Transat, it's not the same too!

Enjoy your Paris pairing!

For the edification of all people here, I have a Paris flight tomorrow evening and somehow, our Frenchman Pacifique has access to this information...... This is getting creepy.

Anyway, a few months ago, after similar comments here on AvCanada I actually took the time to ask an Air France Union rep how our wet-leases for XL were perceived in France an dask if they were legal. Here is what he replied. It's in French and its long so I will paraphrase.

There are many much worse cases. Air Méditerannée, French company like XL, recently laid off all its French pilots and replaced them with cheaper Greek pilots. It's the new ."dry-lease", he said, without the aircraft but with pilots only.....
Then there this fine example of solidarity within one empire where Easyjet brought in foreign pilots to France as scabs to break the strike by the French Easyjet pilots.......

He went on and on and basically told me that compared to what was going on in France in this area, our one A-330 wet-lease were a drop in the ocean and he saw no problem with it............

And by the way, XL is an airline that does flight for a French Tour Operator called Look Voyage that belongs to Transat. It's a bit like the Sunwing in the US deal......

[pacifique001]

Hey Gilles!

Relax, I didn't know for your pairing in Paris, it was just a general ''call'' AHAHAH! Don't freak out!!!

And thank you, I really feel better now (and I think you sleep better now too) knowing that AF union guy told you that and gave you his AF authorization, they speak for everyone in Europe, you know that!

You seem to be annoyed by this subject! Interesting...

Anyway, have a nice and safe flight tomorrow and if I see you around CDG, I'll invite you for the breakfast...

Time for me to go to sleep!

P.

[Gilles Hudicourt]

Hey Gilles!

Relax, I didn't know for your pairing in Paris, it was just a general ''call'' AHAHAH! Don't freak out!!!

And thank you, I really feel better now (and I think you sleep better now too) knowing that AF union guy told you that and gave you his AF authorization, they speak for everyone in Europe, you know that!

You seem to be annoyed by this subject! Interesting...

Anyway, have a nice and safe flight tomorrow and if I see you around CDG, I'll invite you for the breakfast...

Time for me to go to sleep!

P.

I am not here to defend Air Transat. I am fighting the foreign pilots ILLEGALLY flying in Canada. Feel free to do the same in France.

[BBGD]

Enough kidding around already... There are real Canadian pilot's with real Canadian jobs at both Transat and at Canjet... does anyboby have any valuable insight as to what is going on with the contract renewal?
Anybody have a timetable as to when a decision might be made?

[Gilles Hudicourt]

I have not heard but I know that Air Transat is negotiating new concessions from their main Unionized groups in an attempt to significantly bring costs down. The final decision on the 737 MIGHT be conditional of what concession they are or not able to negotiate with these groups. Just an educated guess on my part. If I am correct, then no decision will be taken until these Unions have allowed their members to vote on the company proposals. The pilots have not been notified of the final company demands nor do we have a date for the vote.......

[YHZGOOSE]

Gilles is correct. No decision has been made on the PROPOSAL of TS bringing 737's in house. The waiting game is on and there are a lot of factors to consider.

[AvJet]

What Gilles says makes sense. However, the media reports in January which focused
mostly on executive bonus cuts did say that there was a one year notice period on the
five year contract which expires at the end of March 2014 - so I guess Transat have
to give CanJet a formal decision by then - and I don't see negotiated agreements in place and approved by the various memberships in that time frame.
Allen Graham seems to be driving this proposal and one assumes would not have done so if he did not think it made sense all round and would be accepted by the employees.

[rudder]

The original contract was awarded by Transat A.T. in response to a very low bid from Canjet. I suspect that Canjet made it known to Transat A.T. that the renewal agreement would have to to contain material increases. That probably was the tipping point for Transat A.T. to ask Al Graham/Air Transat to investigate what the costs would be to repatriate the narrowbody lift.

It is a very complicated exercise but it does not bode well for Canjet that significant time and resources are being devoted by Transat A.T./ Air Transat to this initiative. In a business where margins are very tight, it does not hurt that there is no real need for Air Transat as a wholly-owned subsidiary to be profitable. What does matter is the bottom line at Transat A.T.