Extra 200 or 300L

[akoch]

Hi guys,

a new-bee here, have not flown neither of the Extras yet.

What would you say, how would and Extra 200 land itself as a general-purpose personal airplane? Yes, aerobatics it will do great, that's granted. But is it passable as the only airplane somebody owns for 100 dollar hamburgers, cross country flights, nice flight on a good day? Or is is just so specialized that it is not really enjoyable or practical for anything else outside of aerobatics?

I understand that the 200 is even more rare bird, perhaps somebody has experience with the 300L?

Thank you,
Alex

[Colonel Sanders]

Actually, an outfit I used to rent from:

www.attitudeaviation.com

in California had an Extra 200 and it was viewed as a little
underpowered, esp with 2 people on board. I never flew it
so I don't know if that's really true or not.

A problem with doing aerobatics with all the monoplanes
that you need to check first, is: do the wing tanks need
to be empty for acro? If this is the case, this means that
you have only the tiny fuselage tank for fuel, and if you
have to do aerobatics in a distant practice area and then
fly home afterwards, you will be on fumes when you
get back. Tense.

I know the extra 300 has this problem in spades, and
as a result people cheat and do acro with fuel in the
wing tanks which often damages them. I think there
are "small" and "large" wing tanks, one of which gets
damaged more from doing acro with fuel in them. I
forget which one.

If you only do acro directly overhead your airport, this
is not a problem, but take a careful look at the wing
tanks for damage for any extra that you consider
purchasing.

[akoch]

Thank you Colonel, appreciate you responding. Point taken about the tanks.

I read all I could find about Extra's on the net and admittedly it is not a lot.

The attractiveness of the 200 is the IO360, a smaller, lighter, more cost efficient engine. They say it is somewhat underpowered indeed for the vertical lines with two people on-board. Seems a bit better with single occupant. I can certainly live with this, and won't outgrow it for a long time. In return I thought it could be more balanced one for the mixed use - flying around 75% and learning acro 25%.

Two practice areas are directly adjacent to the airport here, so it is really convenient that way.

[P-40]

Hi guys,

a new-bee here, have not flown neither of the Extras yet.

What would you say, how would and Extra 200 land itself as a general-purpose personal airplane? Yes, aerobatics it will do great, that's granted. But is it passable as the only airplane somebody owns for 100 dollar hamburgers, cross country flights, nice flight on a good day? Or is is just so specialized that it is not really enjoyable or practical for anything else outside of aerobatics?

I understand that the 200 is even more rare bird, perhaps somebody has experience with the 300L?

Thank you,
Alex

The 300TC was designed specifically for your deemed purpose, it also happens to be the fastest "certified" piston single on the planet right now. While not as competent as the 300L/330LX/SC acro wise due to the wing design, I understand it will readily take a pilot through advanced competition.

Not sure what you want to spend, but a new TC will deplete your bank account by about $600K.

I have 2 flights in the 300L and thoroughly enjoyed both. It is comfortable as far as aerobatic machines go, visibility is excellent (a little less so if mid-wing) and is down right fun to fly. We have a member of our club who flies his 300L from Oregon to Rocky Mountain House and back for our contest every year. I personally would not hesitate flying a 300 for the purposes you describe. The 200 is going to be hard to find, a 230 is probably more common even though they are scare. The 300 would be my choice.

I am sure Jerzy will chime in as he previously owned a 300L and has the first hand experience you are looking for.

[akoch]

Thank you P-40.

Well, my budget is not above 200k. So new 300TC or LT is well outside my reach.

I have seen somebody (Brendon?) flying a yellow/white 300L around here. Beautiful aircraft.

[P-40]

Thank you P-40.

Well, my budget is not above 200k. So new 300TC or LT is well outside my reach.

I have seen somebody (Brendon?) flying a yellow/white 300L around here. Beautiful aircraft.

I will send you a PM regarding the 300L you mentioned, the owners would gladly help you out. Just noticed you are on the west coast.

[cgzro]

i have about 16 hrs in the 300l .. Nice plane , bit of a robot to fly, like a video game but with real G.
You could perhaps find a 300 mid wing for a better price than the L.

With that budget id get an su26 though.

[Colonel Sanders]

Andre Lortie told me the mid-wing extra 300
has very poor forward visibility. This bothers
some people.

get an su26

I think he's looking for a two-seat, Peter.

[akoch]

Two seat, yes. And with a blend of day-to-day, and good but not unlimited aerobatic. At this stage of my flying abilities I think a full-on real competition airplane will wear me down quickly, I might not be able to enjoy it for cross-country or easy local flights. This is like taking on more airplane than I can handle. That's my perception at the moment at least. So something in tunes of an older Porsche - already affordable, still fun to drive, while happy at both daily driving and on the track.

Su-29 looks gorgeous, but what about normal flying outside of the aerobatic world? It looks more like an unlimited aerobatic category dream-machine.

[Colonel Sanders]

Like getting married, I suggest that you "try before you buy".

Remember, what matters to you is that you subjectively
enjoy flying it.

For example, you might look at two aircraft, and one has 100
foot more vertical, so you should buy it, right? But what if
you really don't like the control feel of the aircraft with the
100 foot extra vertical? You don't like the stick or the seat position
and you find it uncomfortable?

I see the same thing with motorcycles. People with not very
much experience purchase based on specs, but I don't see
many of them racing MotoGP or even Superbike.

Get the airplane that you enjoy to fly, unless you intend to
compete at the next WAC, in which case an Extra is the
wrong choice.

You're going to think I'm nuts, but if you want a nice 2-place
airplane that will do a little acro and x/c, get an RV-8 or a
Super D. Both are very pleasant and mild airplanes that you
can live with.

If the RV-8 and SuperD are too tame for you - you want to go
fast as well as do acro I might recommend:

SX300:


Turbine Legend:


Or why not an L39:

[Colonel Sanders]

Insane idea:

For the same price as an uber-expensive composite
monoplane, you could buy a Pitts S-1 and an L39.

Get all the stick time you want on the S-1 and build
your stick & rudder skills. When you want to go fast
and do BIG acro (talking radius here), jump in the L39,
which is easy to fly compared to the Pitts. A tiny taste:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6r32yJBnQs

Same price as a composite monoplane. I know a guy
who spent $400k on one. I guess he wants to win the WAC.

Try not to catch the RCAF disease, which is trying to buy
only one aircraft (F-104, F-18, F-35) which will do everything
for you. Inevitably it ends up as an expensive, heavy
compromise that doesn't do anything well.


Sigh. You probably don't want to hear this, but buy a $30k
Pitts S-1 and do 500 hours of acro on it in 3 years. At the
end of that 3 years, you will be a very different - and capable -
pilot. At that point, you can easily jump into a Spitfire or P-51
or almost any other airplane and effortlessly fly it. Is that
worth anything to you?

I don't know why people are so resistant to becoming really
skilled pilots. All it takes is $30k for a Pitts S-1 and then
500 hours in the next 3 years. And 99.99999999% of the
pilots in Canada choose not to do that. How odd.

[akoch]

Hmmmm, this is an unexpected turn

Is Pitts S1 mandatory for this 3-year gig, or could the same be accomplished with a SuperD, or EA200 or similar?

Your point about trying and seeing what feels right is absolutely correct. I'll do it as much as I can this coming flying season. It is just not always easy to get access to all these amazing machines. How many folks around CYPK take other folks for a ride in a L39? Something tells me not very many.

But principally speaking you are spot on - I will research it further, try a few different types, perhaps get a second inexpensive but really different airplane. And I'm not fascinated by speed, it is tertiary to me. Handling, low-speed performance envelope, control feel, quality and reliability are more what I'm looking for.

Thank you for the suggestions!

[Beefitarian]

How many folks around CYPK take other folks for a ride in a L39? Something tells me not very many.

If you actually have the means to make a serious acceptable offer and are negotiating to purchase my truck. If my insurance provider is ok with it and you are buying the fuel and a room. You may take a load to the coast from Calgary to try it out, I'll drive it back if you don't want it. In fact if you buy me meals I'll be eager to allow it.

If you drop by and are offering me 60% of my asking price, I might start it, but you definately may not drive it around my block.

Airplane owners trying to make a sale are probably thinking similar things. You actually might buy the plane? Hop in.
Otherwise if you're a just fat guy driving real pilots nuts on the internet. "Sorry, we're closed."

[Shiny Side Up]

I don't know why people are so resistant to becoming really
skilled pilots. All it takes is $30k for a Pitts S-1 and then
500 hours in the next 3 years. And 99.99999999% of the
pilots in Canada choose not to do that. How odd.

First, your method of becoming a "really skilled pilot" costs a lot more than you're advertising here. For example, that 500 hours is going to cost one the purchase price of the airplane alone in 100LL. Nevermind all the other costs, insurance, hangarage, maintenance. New airplane owners always seem to fall into this trap, so you see a lot of tie down decorations out there, since purchasing the thing is almost always the cheapest part of the deal.

Secondly, becoming a better pilot though isn't an all or nothing proposition though. Most pilots would drastically increase their skill level if they could find time to do say 15 hours a year of such time (at least once a month). Many don't need an S-1 to make them better pilots, this far cheaper bird to run would fix most of their issues, if they could at least fly it twice a month.

[Beefitarian]

For example, that 500 hours is going to cost one the purchase price of the airplane alone in 100LL. Nevermind all the other costs, insurance, hangarage, maintenance. New airplane owners always seem to fall into this trap, so you see a lot of tie down decorations out there, since purchasing the thing is almost always the cheapest part of the deal.

Cut that out. You've all ready ruined my desire to buy an airplane with reality. Don't wreck it for other wistfull dreamers.


Edit: Not you akoch, I'm talking about other guys like me that might be living vicariously on here.

[Colonel Sanders]

I'm not fascinated by speed

Ok, that really narrows it down. You don't want an
SX300, turbine Legend of L39. Heck, you don't want
an RV-8 or an Extra for that matter.

SSU's suggestion of a Super D is a really good one. It
will carry two people, go x/c, do some gentle acro, and
is probably the easiest tailwheel airplane in the world to
land. If those things are important to you, take a look.
Better yet, fly one.

Many don't need an S-1 to make them better pilots

Ok, but the thing about a Citabria or Decathlon is that
they are so easy to take off and land. If you look
up "docile" in the dictionary, you will find a picture of one.
They are so bovine and slow, a student pilot can check
himself out on one. If I owned one, I would name it "Bessie"
and paint udders on the bottom.

that 500 hours is going to cost one the purchase price of the airplane alone in 100LL

That's a bit of misdirection. An S-1C with an O-320 is not
going to burn much gas, and you can run mogas in it. As
far as maintenance goes, it's homebuilt, so you can do it
yourself and buy parts at Canadian Tire. Yes, it needs to
be hangared but with a wingspan of 17 feet you can tuck
it in any corner. Insurance? Liability only.

There are reasons to not own an S-1, but cost isn't one
of them. It has outrageous bang for the buck.

[akoch]

What would be reasons not to own a Pitts S1?

[loopy]

I was thinking Super D. What about a Zlin 142 or 242? There used to be a few around. What about a Nanchang or a Grob? Mmmm. RV8. Team Rocket F1.

Perhaps what would work for you would be to buy into a partnership for one bird and buy another. Or 2 partnerships. One is for an aerobatic aircraft, the other for the touring.

[akoch]

Sounds like an good idea. I have a DA20 which I'm very happy with. Might as well keep and use it for sightseeing/touring flights. And get into a partnership into a more serious aircraft.

[akoch]

Edit: Not you akoch, I'm talking about other guys like me that might be living vicariously on here.

Beef.... I was a semi-pro guitar player in a touring metal band in the 90s. Did make my leaving off of it for 5 years or so. Had the guts or common sense to quit and become a computer engineer, figuring that I am not that talented as a musician to carve my own space in that industry. Arguably it does not stop many we hear on the radio, but whatever.
Turned out my decision was correct. Then the second one at a later date was to go on my own. And I might still enjoy making noise in my home studio, and at least I was able to afford to buy a bunch of guitars and amps I could not when I actually needed them. Or drool about nice(er) airplanes when get bored at work.

Since many people gave me really good advice about the airplanes here I guess I felt like responding to your sentiment - you just need to decide what you want to do with your life, make a plan and put in effort to execute on it. You'd be surprised. And the most effort it takes is to realize you want it, admit to it. It is a lot easier for you - you're in your native environment, don't need to learn a different language, culture etc. Just figure a goal and the way.

[Colonel Sanders]

What would be reasons not to own a Pitts S1?

Plenty.

1) single seat
2) lousy x/c airplane
3) no IFR capability
4) can't tie it down outside (fabric, wood)
5) can't win the WAC with it

#5 is not a concern for most of us, though there
was a guy who brought his 2-aileron S-1C to the
WAC and painted another 2 ailerons on it

But seriously, if you want to win the WAC, after
X years and Y hours, you will need to progress to
something like a Yak-55M, which is another single
seat aerobatic airplane which gives tremendous
bang for the buck and can be tied down outside.

It's a little funny looking, and is metric and likes
compressed air, but it's a fine airplane:

[Colonel Sanders]

An airplane I've always liked the lines of is the Yak-54:



But it's extremely rare. I don't know if there is even
one in Canada!

Edit -- just checked. There are no Yak-54's registered
in Canada, an only four in all of the USA. It's an extremely
rare airplane indeed!

[Beefitarian]

That's a pretty crappy picture, get that red thing out of the way.

Beef.... I was a semi-pro guitar player in a touring metal band in the 90s. Did make my leaving off of it for 5 years or so.

Sorry about that man. If you want to get back into it we just need a drummer and some vocals unless you're a great singer. I'm between projects. I wasted a bunch of money and bought a house then got married... so it's not like I'm a regular hobo/musician. Like the colonel points out, I made some bad choices, instead of investing in the place until I could sell it and buy an airplane like I planned.

Make sure you post details on the plane you're buying I'm counting on it.

[Colonel Sanders]

get that red thing out of the way

My God, Beef, you just broke my heart! As a
matter of fact, I just dropped off six Lycoming
valve covers for power coating today - "fire red"!

PS It's official - I've just decided, Akock (not sure
how to pronounce that) should get a Yak-54.

[Beefitarian]

Stay calm. You could paint that nice grey plane red if the little star wasn't enough and you owned it.