why is multi time such a big deal?

[seasonaldriver]

ME aircraft are usually more complex than the average SE aircraft (beyond having an extra engine or two or three) and the emergency procedures are a bit more involved, but really, why is ME flying regarded as such a big deal? A PC-12 is roughly the same complexity as, say, a King Air but that King Air time is thought to be so much more valuable than the PC12 time(aircraft types are just used as rough examples and are not meant to be specific).

Why?
(This should be interesting...)

[2550]

What you said. Plus your expected to be able to have an engine failure and keep flying.

[iflyforpie]

To me, it isn't. I think it is a relic of the old days when multi-engine aircraft were more complex and far less reliable than they are today and single engine aircraft were restricted to fighters, reconnaissance, and utility types. If you look at today's logbook and one from WWII.... the columns look pretty similar.

Now, for sure, the multi engine aircraft is going to be more complex in that if you have an engine failure, you need to do a series of corrective actions properly in order to keep flying... whereas in a single engine aircraft you only have two choices... try a restart or do a forced approach.

Where this breaks down for me is how this experience relates to hours. Me, I get a handful of multi hours a year but I also have to do training and a PPC every year. Someone flying for CMA gets a thousand multi hours per year... but still only does the training and PPC once a year.

So the only other way to get experience is to have exposure to engine failures. I'll tell you right now... if I get a resume from someone who has had lots of engine failures over their career I'd probably toss it.... either for their poor aircraft operation or continuing to fly for operators who run such lousy equipment.


Now... I'm pretty sure that operators will see past which numbers are in which columns and actually see not only what type of aircraft you fly, but what kind of flying you did during those hours. To me.... a guy doing charter in a PC-12 is going to be much more valuable than a guy dumping jumpers out of a Navajo for a multi-IFR job.

[shimmydampner]

Now... I'm pretty sure that operators will see past which numbers are in which columns and actually see not only what type of aircraft you fly, but what kind of flying you did during those hours.

Bingo.

[Sulako]

Sometimes when I'm taxiing I will use asymmetric thrust to make a tight turn. Other than that, I handle the power levers as if they were one.

[Mach1]

If you could get a look at the hiring matrix of an airline, it would answer your question. Most operate (in one form or another) with a point system where you get points for experience levels (now that I write that, it sounds like a video game).

X number of points awarded for:
Total time
Multi-time
Multi-time over 12,500
Turbine
Jet
Glass cockpit
Scheduled carrier
Time on type (or similar type)
Command time (and how much on each of the above categories)
Degree
Diploma
....

This list goes on and on, and the weight that individual companies place on this item or that change depending on who happens to be running the HR department that year and what they are looking for in new hires. So, multi time weighs into whether or not you go to an airline... Yes, airlines still count multi hours. It might be because you don't see a lot of single engine aircraft with GTOW in excess of 12,500 pounds... I don't know... but it is the way of the world. So, in the grand scheme of things, Multi still gets more experience points at the HR table and there is it's real value.

[KK7]

Since I fly an airplane with four engines, can I double the multi time I get on it?

[Colonel Sanders]

I've spent decades trying to avoid multi-engine
airplane. I find them totally boring to fly.

Guy love them though. They just go nuts over
a twin. Sort of like having a fetish for overweight
women. Whatever turns you on, I guess.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I thought you liked the B18?

Hell I was even going to tell you about some of the neat things you can do with one.

[Chaxterium]

Since I fly an airplane with four engines, can I double the multi time I get on it?

Damn right!

I have 1500 hours on a 4 engine plane so I count that as 3000 hours on a twin. Makes sense. Makes me wish I was a B-52 driver though!

[Colonel Sanders]

Beech 18 is an exception to the "boring twin" rule.
Does a nice aileron roll. Having radial engines and
a tailwheel makes it special.

I was referring to being a taxi driver in the C421.
Fly someplace, wait all day in some dump, fly
home. What a waste of a day. And that's
everyone's dream job. Blech.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I heard somewhere the B18 does a nice snap on the top of a loop.....if it has the old gyros you better cage them though...

.....I heard somewhere you can fu.k up an uncaged AI doing the snap on the top of a loop in the B18.

[outsider]

[quote=". ."]if it has the old gyros you better cage them though...


Have you ever thought of caging your old Gyro ????

[seasonaldriver]

To me, it isn't. I think it is a relic of the old days when multi-engine aircraft were more complex and far less reliable than they are today and single engine aircraft were restricted to fighters, reconnaissance, and utility types. If you look at today's logbook and one from WWII.... the columns look pretty similar.

That's kinda what I thought. That still doesn't quite explain why experienced pilots with several thousand hours of complex SE time still seem to have a difficult time breaking into the ME job market. I'm guessing it's like everywhere else. It's not what you know, it's who you know.

[trey kule]

Its all about the ingrained perception. Some pilots just think they are different...that is why you see posts like this..

That still doesn't quite explain why experienced pilots with several thousand hours of complex SE time still seem to have a difficult time breaking into the ME job market.

breaking into the ME job market? It is a crossover. Who exactly is saying king air time is more valuable than PC 12 time?

Some experienced pilots seem to think it is a step up regardless of what they know. But lets be clear here about what a complex single is..some pilots think that applies to a 172RG with a 430 Garmin.

I only got to ride around the odd time in a PC 12 right seat, but from what I could tell, they are every bit the plane a king air is, and particularily a nice spanky newer 12 compared to an old clapped out 100. If there is a problem, it is that the perception that you dont need the same experience level to fly one as a king air, which results in some lower time pilots who still have some bad habits flying them and never getting over some of their bad habits..Companies blame that on the plane, not on a lack of proper training and experience. The other issue, which is a Canadian issue, is that there are some companies out there flying PC 12s ( and some multi engines types) that do not enjoy a stellar reputation and the airlines who have had experience with their pilots previously tend to bypass them..You can do that when you have 100 applicants for each seat. No need to find out if one is the exception..I did not notice that on the Matrix shown, but it is there,I assure you.

[iflyforpie]

If you could get a look at the hiring matrix of an airline, it would answer your question. Most operate (in one form or another) with a point system where you get points for experience levels (now that I write that, it sounds like a video game).

X number of points awarded for:
Total time
Multi-time
Multi-time over 12,500
Turbine
Jet
Glass cockpit
Scheduled carrier
Time on type (or similar type)
Command time (and how much on each of the above categories)
Degree
Diploma
....

This list goes on and on, and the weight that individual companies place on this item or that change depending on who happens to be running the HR department that year and what they are looking for in new hires. So, multi time weighs into whether or not you go to an airline... Yes, airlines still count multi hours. It might be because you don't see a lot of single engine aircraft with GTOW in excess of 12,500 pounds... I don't know... but it is the way of the world. So, in the grand scheme of things, Multi still gets more experience points at the HR table and there is it's real value.

I wonder if I'll get any points for my unlocked achievements..... like big shades, big watch, having a different Hawaiian shirt for each day of the week, and Top Poster status on Avcanada?

[trey kule]

You have seven Hawaiian shirts? And a big ass watch? WhileI really dont see why you would consider changing companies if your present company is paying you the kind of pilot salary that would allow you such gracious living, but yes,, no question, in our company your resume would go to the top of the pile, and you would definitely get preference over any other pilots who only had single shirt and simple watch time.
Six shirt time is definitely multi time , and with a complex watch...whew...perfect. I expect you will get offers form WJ and AC very soon after their HR departments see your post while trolling the college posters for candidates to offer jobs .

[AEROBAT]

I've spent decades trying to avoid multi-engine
airplane. I find them totally boring to fly.

Guy love them though. They just go nuts over
a twin. Sort of like having a fetish for overweight
women. Whatever turns you on, I guess.

Classic! I love that

[seasonaldriver]

You have seven Hawaiian shirts? And a big ass watch? WhileI really dont see why you would consider changing companies if your present company is paying you the kind of pilot salary that would allow you such gracious living, but yes,, no question, in our company your resume would go to the top of the pile, and you would definitely get preference over any other pilots who only had single shirt and simple watch time.
Six shirt time is definitely multi time , and with a complex watch...whew...perfect. I expect you will get offers form WJ and AC very soon after their HR departments see your post while trolling the college posters for candidates to offer jobs .

Well there you have it! My watch is too small and my collection of shirts is insufficient to the task of flying a fire breathing ME beast.

Mystery solved. Now I will quit deleting those spam emails touting Rolex imitations, buy a couple and hope that the CP won't notice that it's an imitation.

[Mach1]

I wonder if I'll get any points for my unlocked achievements..... like big shades, big watch, having a different Hawaiian shirt for each day of the week, and Top Poster status on Avcanada?

If I had any say in the matter, you would get extra lives for that achievement.

[Rockie]

Beech 18 is an exception to the "boring twin" rule.

I doubt you would find the B-52 boring either, and it has eight engines.

[Beefitarian]

Beech 18 is an exception to the "boring twin" rule.

I doubt you would find the B-52 boring either, and it has eight engines.

Major T. J. "King" Kong: Goldie, how many times have I told you guys that I don't want no horsing around on the airplane?

Courtesy of http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057012/quotes

[co-joe]

It's another one of those stupid aviation-isms that is so ingrained in everyones mind that no one bothers to argue with the flawed logic anymore, they just accept that twins are somehow more difficuly to fly and that having done so makes them better people...and then they fly one and realise that they are easier to fly, perform better, and have more redundancy and therefore require less skill to safely operate. Sure a stove can pack it in, but anybody can learn that procedure and practice it once a year and then call themselves an expert.

Reminds me of a friend who flew Navajos in the oilpatch but at the time couldn't get a job on King Airs without turbine time. He would say that the navajo made hime a better pilot since he couldn't outclimb the weather or descend through it as quickly, didn't have as much power to back him up in ice (or as effective de/anti ice equipment to rely on), or as much power for the heavy loads, and high density altitudes. He had piston reliability not turbine. He went into all the same runways the King Airs did without reverse thrust, without the same range and single engine performance. He flew single pilot cause the plane couldn't make money with a co-joe taking up useful load so had to work alone... And yet he obviously couldn't handle a big expensive turbine machine...

It's all bullshit. Whatever experience anyone has it always the best type to have and anybody else's time is not as good as yours, unless they have the same time you do, then their education wasn't as good, or they paid for their training, or they had it easier, or blah blah blah. It's all complete and total bullshit my friend. Get used to it. This industry revolves around bullshit. You will eat it for breakfast lunch and supper, until it comes out of your pores. You will be so immersed in it that one day you will start to believe it. You won't even remember what it like not to have shit stuck in your teeth, and the smeel of it on your breath will feel normal. You'll brush your teeth with it, and you'll pass it on to others... Enjoy that single engine time while it lasts eh.

[shimmydampner]

Umm....
That escalated quickly!
Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Reminds me of a friend who flew Navajos in the oilpatch but at the time couldn't get a job on King Airs without turbine time. He would say that the navajo made hime a better pilot since he couldn't outclimb the weather or descend through it as quickly, didn't have as much power to back him up in ice (or as effective de/anti ice equipment to rely on), or as much power for the heavy loads, and high density altitudes. He had piston reliability not turbine. He went into all the same runways the King Airs did without reverse thrust, without the same range and single engine performance. He flew single pilot cause the plane couldn't make money with a co-joe taking up useful load so had to work alone... And yet he obviously couldn't handle a big expensive turbine machine...

Its hard to argue with this bit, because it is true.